2015/16 Offseason: More active than Shakira's hips

[Ranma]

I was not happy with dealing Jose Peraza in the first place. Secondly, I also preferred Todd Frazier as the return in trade just like the White Sox did. And third, the Dodgers seemed to have lost out on another deal because of missed intelligence if Frankie Montas indeed had shown signs of suffering from symptoms leading up to his rib resection surgery as Neddy mentioned. The front office previously engaged in Aroldis Chapman discussions before bowing out after discovering information the Red Sox already had in hand.

This just doesn't look good. Peraza was still considered a top-100 prospect in baseball and the fact that the headline player we got in return for him turned out to be damaged goods further erodes my confidence with our front office's judgment in making big deals. After dealing away Dee Gordon right before his best season, then trading away young LHP Andrew Heaney for Howie Kendrick, the Dodgers dealt away Peraza and filler for Montas, Micah Johnson, and Trayce Thompson. We seem to be having problems in dealing with 2B, which should be one of the easiest positions to fill. Hopefully, newcomer Alex Anthopoulos will provide some input to improve our expertise in intelligence-gathering and deal-making.

As for Montas, we can only hope now for a return to health after recovery and recuperation, but this pretty much seals his fate as a relief pitcher instead of a starting pitcher, in my opinion. Maybe Johnson or Thompson will exceed expectations to make the trade a winner, but I have my doubts.

[Quake Griffin]

Yikes man. Todd Frazier isnt better than Turner, has limited experience in LF and isn't that good of a hitter outside of Cincinnati. The best thing he could offer was his glove and Turner's handled 3rd just fine if not better.
I never wanted him from the jump and I'm glad our FO steered clear.

and....agree to disagree on Dee Gordon.


But that has nothing to do with whether or not the FO dealt for damaged goods and it looks like they have given that he is having a rib actually removed and not letting the "stress fracture" heal on its own. I'm not sure if it's foul play on the part of the White Sox or our staff not doing their due diligence, but that is unacceptable.

Worse....his outlook for the 2016 season is bleak.
He has to have a successful rehab
go to AAA and pitch well
then maybe get called up.
Color me unsurprised if he doesn't throw an inning in the majors this year.

[Neddy]

Yikes man. Todd Frazier isnt better than Turner, has limited experience in LF and isn't that good of a hitter outside of Cincinnati. The best thing he could offer was his glove and Turner's handled 3rd just fine if not better.
I never wanted him from the jump and I'm glad our FO steered clear.

and....agree to disagree on Dee Gordon.


But that has nothing to do with whether or not the FO dealt for damaged goods and it looks like they have given that he is having a rib actually removed and not letting the "stress fracture" heal on its own. I'm not sure if it's foul play on the part of the White Sox or our staff not doing their due diligence, but that is unacceptable.

Worse....his outlook for the 2016 season is bleak.
He has to have a successful rehab
go to AAA and pitch well
then maybe get called up.
Color me unsurprised if he doesn't throw an inning in the majors this year.

I have to say I side with Quake about Todd Frazier. his HR numbers can be decieving as he can't get on base to save his life and OPS wise he is a notch below Turner.
the one thing that hurt me the most about Dee Gordon trade wasn't trading Dee out, it was not holding onto Andrew Heaney. If you guys remember, I was animatedly excited to get that young arm and cautiously optimistic when we flipped him for Howie. now Heaney is on the Angrls rotation with 5 more controlleable seasons and we got Howie for cheap for the next 2 years. let's see if Howie would have a bounce back season.
another perspective I have come to see is that, Montas was probably not going to make the team out of spring training anyway. if he had any underlying issues and the FO still felt that Montas was young enough to recover well and prognosis was already better than the most, letting him have his surgery now and stashing him away for the future would not be the worst idea. this is the same FO afterall, that turned down a proven MLB pitcher with a well documented pre-existing condition in Kuma, then gauged the crap out of Maeda. if you guys remember Theo Epstein from a couple of seasons ago, he did what is now known as playing "medicine ball" by picking up a bunch of still young players or vets still in their prime coming back from serious injuries for cheap, hopinhg for a few of them to make it back. Theo signed internattional players past their prime coming back from TJS as well. looks to me maybe Friedman and Farahn are doing the same, but with younger guys? Brandon Beachy comes to mind. and I dunno if you guys remember, but McCarthy's contract had a language that states in case of a major injury which makes him lose a season, then his contract is automatically extended for another year at the league minimum. we basically gave away a minimum contract for him to sit last season and a half of this season, but paid him forward so we can have him healthy when our payroll is more flexible to absorb some monster contracts.
anywho, we are still talking about a guy who may or may not have made it through a AAA season as a starter and little hope of making it to the show as one. he was eventually gonna be converted to a reliever or become a part of a package deal so I am not too down about this... anymore.

[Ranma]

We've discussed this before, so I get why I'm the only one in favor of keeping Dee Gordon. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree with this one. The collection of player evaluators for the Dodgers was apparently split on sending him out as well. I still feel that Gordon would have solidified 2B as well as the leadoff role since we still don't have a clear-cut candidate for the top of the batting order and are anticipating to use a platoon at 2B with Kendrick and **** with Utley as well. Even with Gordon's contract extension in Miami escalating to $14 million in 2021, he'd still be cheaper than paying the $17 million + whatever **** ends up getting for 2016 while providing better production at 2B both offensively and defensively. As it stands right now, Gordon is getting paid $3.3 million for the upcoming season.

The return for Gordon was sizable, so I get the argument in favor of quantity over quality, but so far Chris Hatcher has given us half a season of quality production out of the bullpen, Kendrick is a downgrade at 2B, **** is now platooning at 2B as well and not very good in CF while Austin Barnes may not even make the roster given the lack of available space. The trade obviously could still pay off down the road, but I don't see how trading away a young All-Star 2B a year before he won the batting title and Gold Glove can be considered a win, especially given the hole that is still left from his departure. While we may disagree on trading Dee Gordon, I think we share the sentiment that trading Andrew Heaney away for Howie Kendrick was a move that further downgraded the return value of the deal for our side.

I understand the argument against Todd Frazier and I don't necessarily disagree with most if it, but remember, I didn't want to pull the trigger at all in dealing Jose Peraza. The Dodgers apparently didn't like what they saw first-hand from him just like the buyer's remorse after obtaining Hector Olivera, who was dealt to get Peraza in the first place along with Alex Wood. The reason Frazier appealed to me was because he provided a safety net for Justin Turner as he recovers from microfracture surgery while also providing an inexpensive option for 2 years in the outfield. Frazier wasn't supposed to replace Turner unless it was absolutely necessary. He'd be a right-handed power bat who should perform better than Carl Crawford while we're also looking to deal Andre Ethier even if his numbers aren't as good outside of Cincy.

Frankie Montas did provide higher upside, so I previously conceded the argument in favor of that trade. However, whatever becomes of him, the fact is that we traded for him right before he got injured. Whether it is a lack of due diligence or a blind spot in our talent evaluation or both, at the very least our timing seems to be really bad in pursuing deals whether it is Dee Gordon, Howie Kendrick, Brandon McCarthy, Aroldis Chapman, Matt Latos, and now Montas. Yes, Montas was unlikely to make the 25-man roster out of Spring Training and maybe should have been a relief pitcher all along like I initially argued, but we just traded for a guy right before his value plummeted and his development is now put on hold at the very least. If the front office still wanted the guy after his injury, it surely would have been cheaper to acquire him now than before.

I don't at all like the trend that our front office has displayed in its deal-making so far.

[Neddy]

We've discussed this before, so I get why I'm the only one in favor of keeping Dee Gordon. There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree with this one. The collection of player evaluators for the Dodgers was apparently split on sending him out as well. I still feel that Gordon would have solidified 2B as well as the leadoff role since we still don't have a clear-cut candidate for the top of the batting order and are anticipating to use a platoon at 2B with Kendrick and **** with Utley as well. Even with Gordon's contract extension in Miami escalating to $14 million in 2021, he'd still be cheaper than paying the $17 million + whatever **** ends up getting for 2016 while providing better production at 2B both offensively and defensively. As it stands right now, Gordon is getting paid $3.3 million for the upcoming season.

The return for Gordon was sizable, so I get the argument in favor of quantity over quality, but so far Chris Hatcher has given us half a season of quality production out of the bullpen, Kendrick is a downgrade at 2B, **** is now platooning at 2B as well and not very good in CF while Austin Barnes may not even make the roster given the lack of available space. The trade obviously could still pay off down the road, but I don't see how trading away a young All-Star 2B a year before he won the batting title and Gold Glove can be considered a win, especially given the hole that is still left from his departure. While we may disagree on trading Dee Gordon, I think we share the sentiment that trading Andrew Heaney away for Howie Kendrick was a move that further downgraded the return value of the deal for our side.

I understand the argument against Todd Frazier and I don't necessarily disagree with most if it, but remember, I didn't want to pull the trigger at all in dealing Jose Peraza. The Dodgers apparently didn't like what they saw first-hand from him just like the buyer's remorse after obtaining Hector Olivera, who was dealt to get Peraza in the first place along with Alex Wood. The reason Frazier appealed to me was because he provided a safety net for Justin Turner as he recovers from microfracture surgery while also providing an inexpensive option for 2 years in the outfield. Frazier wasn't supposed to replace Turner unless it was absolutely necessary. He'd be a right-handed power bat who should perform better than Carl Crawford while we're also looking to deal Andre Ethier even if his numbers aren't as good outside of Cincy.

Frankie Montas did provide higher upside, so I previously conceded the argument in favor of that trade. However, whatever becomes of him, the fact is that we traded for him right before he got injured. Whether it is a lack of due diligence or a blind spot in our talent evaluation or both, at the very least our timing seems to be really bad in pursuing deals whether it is Dee Gordon, Howie Kendrick, Brandon McCarthy, Aroldis Chapman, Matt Latos, and now Montas. Yes, Montas was unlikely to make the 25-man roster out of Spring Training and maybe should have been a relief pitcher all along like I initially argued, but we just traded for a guy right before his value plummeted and his development is now put on hold at the very least. If the front office still wanted the guy after his injury, it surely would have been cheaper to acquire him now than before.

I don't at all like the trend that our front office has displayed in its deal-making so far.

yeah there is nothing wrong with disagreements here, and you have my full respect for that matter. and yes Andrew's dealing has been sporatic at times but the constant that always remained in the background is the reason why we have arguably the best farm in all of baseball while not having a firesale of the major league roster. I do think our FO getting bloated with IQs and degrees with so many additions lately is only going to help to compensate for whatever the shortcomings Andrew and Fahran may have within them. maybe there could be too many cooks in the kitchen but there are plenty of stoves cooking at the same time I am sure they can deligate the work load if they have to. again, my regret in Dee's trade was sending off Heaney so quickly. if the deal was a straight up deal of Dee for Heaney, I would have taken that deal 8 days a week. we have discussed this at length before and I do not mean to dismiss your POV in anyway, but it is hard to overlook a guy who won the batting title at .333 BA to have 0.026 points higher for his OBP. I don't see him winning or competing for the batting title every year like Tony Gwynn but his inability to get on base is staggering and very concerning to me. with all the stolen bases he gets caught more than 25% of the time and that too is unacceptable to me. I would rather have a guy who doesn't run as fast as Dee does and doesn't steal as many bags bt compensates with more doubles and HRswho doesn't get caught on bases to kill a rally. but I suppose we all have our own preference and that's okay too.

anywho, I still am a fan of the FO we have, but you were the one to call out on Doc Rivers long before myself or Quake too so we will have to wait and see. glad that none of us are compartmentalizing conformists so we can debate and not get personally offended. for that alone I love this place.

[Quake Griffin]

One more.


What do you guys mean when you say you think this surgery will make him a bullpen arm for sure now?
I've always viewed him as a bullpen arm but what makes you guys think that's happening for sure now?

edit:
did look up rib resection and saw that TOS is why youd get that done....wasnt aware Ned...good looks bein on top.

[Ranma]

Thanks, Neddy, Don't worry. I didn't think you or Quake were dismissing my point of view on Gordon. In fact, I appreciate seeing both your side on this debate. I'll concede that I was blinded a bit to Dee's shortcoming in his advanced metrics at the plate and on the basepaths. I can't say I agree about trading Gordon for Heaney straight-up since I wasn't that high on Heaney either, but he certainly had more value than Kendrick on the last year of his deal before signing up for two more seasons. In any case, I certainly respect both you and Quake's assertions on the other side of the Gordon deal.

I also don't think our front office is as bad as Doc Rivers being a GM since, as you pointed out, it is doing a pretty good job of building up and developing our homegrown talent base, which is completely the opposite of what Doc has shown in that regard. However, I am growing more troubled with our trade pursuits. The front office certainly gets an A+ for thinking outside of the box, but I'm getting a sense that it is over-thinking or out-thinking itself in a lot of these trades so far. The pursuit of Chapman, in a vacuum, was definitely something I was onboard with, but the circumstances surrounding him as well the the resulting hurt feelings by Kenley Jansen only complicated matters when it could have been avoided in our failed pursuit since Boston already had such relevant information.

Also, it's one thing to use an open spot on the 40-man roster to cycle through a bunch of wayward free agents who could turn out to be contributors to the big league roster, but it's another when there's continual buyer's remorse after acquiring players from outside the organization. Signing Hector Olivera to a big contract when it was widely known he had arm issues at his age was highly questionable at the time, but he was dealt away months later. Acquiring both Jose Peraza and Alex Wood only to deal Peraza less than a year later seems a bit rash to me. Plus, I felt that Wood wasn't given much of an opportunity to establish himself in the rotation last season even if I think he might be better served in the pen this year given his struggles beyond the 2nd time through the order.

I gave the front office the benefit of the doubt on these moves and others and, so far, they have not met expectations. One can argue that cutting bait quickly on players after seeing them first-hand as not being a fit in the organization is a good characteristic, but it also poses the question of why did we make the moves to acquire them in the first place. While the Dodgers seem to be doing a good job in identifying talent to draft and developing it from within it, they seem to also struggle in identifying fits acquired from other organizations. That is to say our minor league scouts are doing a better job than our major league scouts so far. Maybe the addition of Alex Anthopoulos can address such shortcomings without sacrificing our strengths.

Like I said, I gave our front office the benefit of the doubt on a lot of moves that I didn't initially agree with, but that faith has dwindled in light of the lack of payoff in our subsequent return thus far. I'm still a fan of our front office, but I've grown more skeptical of it.

[Ranma]

One more.


What do you guys mean when you say you think this surgery will make him a bullpen arm for sure now?
I've always viewed him as a bullpen arm but what makes you guys think that's happening for sure now?

edit:
did look up rib resection and saw that TOS is why youd get that done....wasnt aware Ned...good looks bein on top.

For me personally, my stance on Montas is based on my initial impression of him as well as seeing what happened to Josh Beckett after he had surgery to alleviate symptoms from his bout with thoracic outlet syndrome. It's not really based on any expertise, just observation. There hasn't really been any successful careers for players who've had TOS: Beckett, Chris Carpenter, and Shawn Marcum come to mind. It may be a matter of time before a player notably breaks that trend, but I have my doubts that Montas will be the one to do it.

Like you, I've also viewed Montas as primarily a relief arm but given the lack of examples for long-term success for players post-TOS, I don't see the point in wasting time trying to develop him as a starting pitcher now. If he's going to make it back, it makes more sense to have him go with what he's got as a reliever than have him try to develop and refine more pitches on top of rehabbing his injury. He's 22 years-old and is unlikely to give us anything until he's at least 24.

[Quake Griffin]

and on Dee.

If he consistently beats the metrics and consistently puts up batting titles with a .383 BABIP, I'll eat my crow.
I'm a believer in **** and Barnes...even though **** has got something to figure out with RHP...and I'm glad we have them under team control until 2021 and 2022 respectively.

We have the less "sexy" option at 2B - depth. But I seriously doubt the Marlins get more WAR out of 2B than we do this year.
Again, I'll eat my crow if it comes to it but for now, I'm betting on us. I'm alos betting on **** being a better 2B long term.
In the end.....when Dee's BABIP comes down to earth....who wants a .300/.320 slap hitting lead off hitter.....AT 2ND BASE of all positions?

[Neddy]

Dee to me is a second coming of Juan Pierre.

but putting that aside, Austin Barnes has posted in his minor league career with .440 SLG and potential for a double digit HRs if given a full time catcher's work load, and that is very promisnig knowing his career OBP in 5 seasons in the minors is nearly .400. he is a kid who can get on base .090 higher than his BA and his minor league BA is same as Dee.

now going back to Montas, just gotta hope for the best and if it isn't meant to be, at least be glad that we have such a deep farm that the 4th best prospect hanging it up would not make a dent to our minor league depth. having said that I hope and wish for his speedy recovery and becoming a dominant set up man in the future. a relief arm with supposedly the best fastball/slider combo in the minors is a closer type of talent, not just a set up man type of a talent we need him to be.

[Quake Griffin]

viewtopic.php?f=109&t=1428153

made this thread in an effort to diversify things around here a little bit and give potential lurkers a chance to enter into a convo that we haven't been entrenched in

[Quake Griffin]

Louis Coleman?

[Ranma]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/700510371203907585[/tweet]
Devan Fink, CoverThoseBases.com (2/18/16)

The 29-year-old Coleman has spent his entire career pitching out of the Royals' bullpen, and he appeared in four games in 2015.

Coleman spent the majority of last season pitching in Triple-A Omaha, where he went 8-2 with a 1.69 ERA and a 63 to 23 strikeout-to-walk ratio in 64 innings.

Over his short Major League stint, Coleman did not allow a run, and struck out one while walking two in three innings.

Coleman and the Royals avoided arbitration earlier this offseason to keep him in Kansas City. He reportedly would have made $725,000 this year. Just weeks later, the Royals designated him for assignment and subsequently released him.
...

Coleman has been very solid over a five-year Major League career.

He is 6-4 with a 3.20 ERA and a 186 to 78 strikeout-to-walk ratio in 177 1/3 innings pitched. According to FanGraphs, his career FIP is 4.30 and his xFIP is 4.05. Overall, he has been worth 0.3 fWAR.

Source: Dodgers Sign Louis Coleman to One-Year Deal


Jeff Todd, MLBTradeRumors.com (2/18/16)

Los Angeles will also have the chance to control him for two more years via arbitration.

Coleman appeared in only four big league games last year and struggled in 2014 as well. But he posted strong results at Triple-A, with a 1.69 ERA and 8.9 K/9 against 3.2 BB/9 over 64 frames, and has put up some interesting results in the past.

Over a three-year run from 2011-13, Coleman was rather quietly excellent. He tallied 140 1/3 innings of 2.69 ERA pitching, racking up 10.3 K/9 vs. 3.7 BB/9 while surrendering less than seven hits per regulation game. Though his fastball sits in the 89 to 90 mph range and he otherwise relies heavily on just one offspeed pitch (a slider), Coleman has been able to generate huge swing and miss numbers at times.

Dodgers Sign Louis Coleman

[Neddy]

moderately expensive AAA insurance arm to me but good for him to have the comfort of knowing he has a guaranteed contract to work himself back without the fear of getting cut with no money to support his family, we get a guy who might be able to resuccitate his career and become a right handed batsman specialist out of the pen with such lefty dominant rotation. at the minimum, he will be a guy with major league experience to push our young bullpen arms during spring training.

[Quake Griffin]

So much **** depth.

The more depth they add, the more I realize how much we didn't have it in 2014 when they came on.
Now we're the deepest team in baseball. It's beyond nuts.


Any more news on whether the Yaisel Sierra deal is done? It's Pitchers and Catchers time.

[Quake Griffin]

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/turner-704281-dodgers-knee.html


running drills for Turner with no ill after effects.
that's a positive for sure.
we need his bat in our lineup. He's easily been one of the best hitters in baseball over the last 2 years.

I'm even willing to be patient with him if his bat starts off slow because the knee procedure has his timing/ mechanics somewhat off.
but that's good news. Still don't expect him to be 100% for opening day against the Padres.

[Ranma]

SAny more news on whether the Yaisel Sierra deal is done? It's Pitchers and Catchers time.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Dodgers/status/701429229401956353[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

Roberts also sidestepped batting order specifics or naming names when asked for contenders to bat leadoff, but indicated that it's more likely to be a rotation than a permanent job the way it was for him when he played "because of the way that the game has evolved," meaning metrics and matchups. "Players are starting to understand their strengths and weaknesses," he said. "Nowadays it's another spot in the order, where a typical leadoff hitter doesn't have to be a Brett Butler at the top."


Is this the 1st time you've heard Dave Roberts mention metrics? It is for me.
I knew he was on board because they really liked him but I didn't see for myself. It's been all smiles and hallmark cards mixed with a dose of how to handle Puig.

Either way, the #1 hole is not just "another spot" in the order IMO but it's probably just semantics. I think we're on the same page.

[Quake Griffin]

http://m.dodgers.mlb.com/news/article/165020220/dodgers-kenley-jansen-puts-offseason-in-past

Bitter they didn't talk extension?

[Quake Griffin]

“I think, for me, it serves everyone better when each catcher is familiar with every pitcher,” [manager Dave] Roberts said. “There is some good with that (comfort level of throwing to the same catcher all the time) but I think I’m more on the side that it’s better when catchers are familiar with every pitcher.”


"Doc" Roberts scoring points with Quake already.
get that "AJ is my personal catcher" **** the FOH