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Celts @ Cavs (the rematch)

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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#41 » by JonFromVA » Thu Nov 3, 2022 2:53 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Again, Garland and Mobley have played all of six quarters together this year against two really good teams. Maybe give it a minute.


I don’t see what Garland has to do with Mobley being more or less aggressive offensively.

If Mobley is going to be the best player on this team, like some of us think he is. He’s going to need to start showing the ability and willingness to get his own.

Also not sure what Garland has to do with the speed of his shot. It’s extremely slow and deliberate, not fluid at all. He clearly doesn’t want to shoot despite mostly being left wide open on the perimeter

Why it's so crucial to not jump the gun and rush the win now mode, but here we are.

Mobley is at best the 4th scoring option with that starting unit. I'm not sure who else is with his 2nd or maybe even 3rd units to see where he falls in the pecking order with those lineups.

Anyway, Mobley is going to have to develop within the make-up of never being the first or second scoring option for at least the next 3 or 4 seasons. The cool thing is he's 21 so even if Mitchell stays for his full 4 years, Mobley still won't be in his prime.

Point being he doesn't have to become Giannis, KD, or AD tomorrow, he has time.


Garland's presence (except the end of this last game where they were holding the ball to run clock) means better ball movement, more perimeter gravity, and just better looks for the big men and cutters. Most players give more effort on D when they feel involved in the O. The combo of Mitchell and Garland should deliver great looks for our big men and for our perimeter shooters because as for now, one is better at interior passing and the other is betting at perimeter passing. A nice bonus most of us didn't see when worrying that Mitchell doesn't throw lobs well.

The team is committed to expanding Evan's game, but there's no reason to force feed him. There will be matchups that favor him, and that's when he should get a lot of attempts. And I don't know if he will ever be able to tighten up his dribble, perfect his shooting and consistently finish through contact; but if/when that happens he'll be sharing the load with the other guys and perhaps be in consideration as the #1 option if he's effective/efficient enough.

Consider Anthony Davis has never dished more than 4.2 assists in a season, never shot the 3-ball better than 34%, and his career high for TS% is 61.2%. Evan would have to do a whole lot better than that to become "the guy we run our offense through" on a team with Garland and Mitchell.

But like when Boston started switching everything and Evan would end up with Smart or another guard defending him, that's when he can have a big impact, right now this season. Punish a team for switching and they'll have to cut it out.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#42 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 3, 2022 3:17 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
Absolute monster defensively and just really moving well without the ball on offense. All around incredible.

I’m slightly worried about his offense overall tho. His load up on his shot is so slow and he’s just not really aggressive at all.

He’s just playing within the game / team but these years are super important for development. I’d really like to see him get his more often


Again, Garland and Mobley have played all of six quarters together this year against two really good teams. Maybe give it a minute.


I don’t see what Garland has to do with Mobley being more or less aggressive offensively.

If Mobley is going to be the best player on this team, like some of us think he is. He’s going to need to start showing the ability and willingness to get his own.

Also not sure what Garland has to do with the speed of his shot. It’s extremely slow and deliberate, not fluid at all. He clearly doesn’t want to shoot despite mostly being left wide open on the perimeter


Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a bust before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#43 » by jasonxxx102 » Thu Nov 3, 2022 3:18 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Again, Garland and Mobley have played all of six quarters together this year against two really good teams. Maybe give it a minute.


I don’t see what Garland has to do with Mobley being more or less aggressive offensively.

If Mobley is going to be the best player on this team, like some of us think he is. He’s going to need to start showing the ability and willingness to get his own.

Also not sure what Garland has to do with the speed of his shot. It’s extremely slow and deliberate, not fluid at all. He clearly doesn’t want to shoot despite mostly being left wide open on the perimeter


Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a busy before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.


If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.
76ciology wrote:Wouldn't Edey have a better chance of winning the scoring battle against Tatum in the post after a switch than Tatum shooting over Edey's 9'6" standing reach?
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#44 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 3, 2022 3:21 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:Donovan Mitchell grabs some truly crazy rebounds.

He high-points this rebound and cradles it one handed right out of the air. Just insane, and I'm pretty sure this was after the Cavs gave up 3 offensive rebounds in a row.

https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2022/11/02/0022200107/719/065b0caf-cf94-10bf-f62e-96cdb08f1475_1280x720.mp4


Both Mitchell and LeVert are better rebounders than advertised. It matters in crunch time.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#45 » by Crunch 99 » Thu Nov 3, 2022 3:28 pm

WillyJakkz wrote:
Understood.

It just seems the dynamic is different and the team understood the order and with Garland back it seems to be not a talent question but an ego question as Darius is a young player and seems to be trying to prove he can be or is the lead moreso than letting the offense flow.

He did alot of 1v1 and forcing and doesn't see the game quite the same as Donovan just yet due to experience.

He shot well 9-20 but did he really need to take 20 shots. They got the W just seems it was harder than it should've been.


Garland scores an impressive 29 points on 20 fga with 12 ast and 1 tov in his first game back and you are complaining that he took too many shots? My thoughts were did Mitchell really need to take 27 fga, more attempts than his season average, when he wasn't hitting and Garland was back in the lineup shooting and passing the ball well. Different strokes for different folks I guess! :D

Regardless, it was another very impressive win against a top team that has veteran players who are used to playing together.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#46 » by JonFromVA » Thu Nov 3, 2022 4:21 pm

Mitchell made some crucial shots that got us back in the lead, but defense really won the game. The Celtics shot 3 for 11 in the OT period as Tatum, Brown, and Smart took all the shots and yet Brown still had a chance to win it but wasted seconds off the clock by not calling for a timeout and then with only 2.3 seconds left tried a fade away jumper over Dean Wade and missed it.

And Dean Wade is supposed to be our weak spot?
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#47 » by JonFromVA » Thu Nov 3, 2022 5:56 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
I don’t see what Garland has to do with Mobley being more or less aggressive offensively.

If Mobley is going to be the best player on this team, like some of us think he is. He’s going to need to start showing the ability and willingness to get his own.

Also not sure what Garland has to do with the speed of his shot. It’s extremely slow and deliberate, not fluid at all. He clearly doesn’t want to shoot despite mostly being left wide open on the perimeter


Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a busy before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.


If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.


We don't have to force Evan to create shots in order for him to develop in to whatever it is he's going to develop in to and the only thing he *needs* to be doing is help us win games.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#48 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 3, 2022 10:54 pm

jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
I don’t see what Garland has to do with Mobley being more or less aggressive offensively.

If Mobley is going to be the best player on this team, like some of us think he is. He’s going to need to start showing the ability and willingness to get his own.

Also not sure what Garland has to do with the speed of his shot. It’s extremely slow and deliberate, not fluid at all. He clearly doesn’t want to shoot despite mostly being left wide open on the perimeter


Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a busy before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.


If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.


How many HOF big men can you name who didn't play with a good PG?
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#49 » by JonFromVA » Thu Nov 3, 2022 11:20 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a busy before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.


If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.


How many HOF big men can you name who didn't play with a good PG?


Depends what you call a big man and a good PG. :lol:

I get the impression jasonxxx102 wants Evan to develop the ability to create offense with the ball in his hands and fears we can't win a championship if it doesn't happen, so it's his primary concern.

While I welcome Evan becoming whatever he's able to become, there's no single formula to winning a championship; and if it ever does happen it's likely years down the line. We should be happy with glimpses of potential for now.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#50 » by KuruptedCav » Thu Nov 3, 2022 11:28 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Good PG play is critical to getting bigs timely and on target passes. Alton looked like a busy before Rubio. Gobert was a defensive specialist before Rubio. Love was a shell of himself with Sexton as the lead ball handler. If you want your big man to be the best he can be, you need a good PG.


If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.


How many HOF big men can you name who didn't play with a good PG?

Like Yao and Dwight Howard from recent memory?


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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#51 » by JujitsuFlip » Thu Nov 3, 2022 11:50 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
jasonxxx102 wrote:
If you think Mobley is just going to be a really good big man, sure.

If you think Mobley is going to be the cornerstone of a franchise you need more.


How many HOF big men can you name who didn't play with a good PG?

Like Yao and Dwight Howard from recent memory?


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Yao played with good ball handlers his entire short career.

Dwight isn't in yet, even though he's a near lock. And i don't feel like looking through his entire nearly 20 year career lol
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#52 » by KuruptedCav » Fri Nov 4, 2022 12:38 am

JujitsuFlip wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
How many HOF big men can you name who didn't play with a good PG?

Like Yao and Dwight Howard from recent memory?


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Yao played with good ball handlers his entire short career.

Dwight isn't in yet, even though he's a near lock. And i don't feel like looking through his entire nearly 20 year career lol

I always thought a PG was what was missing from Yao. Raefer Alston and the corpse of Steve Francis a couple times.

Jameer Nelson. Though I always felt he was a byproduct of Dwight.

Shaq didn’t play with good PGs. Average to above average…


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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#53 » by jbk1234 » Fri Nov 4, 2022 12:47 am

KuruptedCav wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:Like Yao and Dwight Howard from recent memory?


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Yao played with good ball handlers his entire short career.

Dwight isn't in yet, even though he's a near lock. And i don't feel like looking through his entire nearly 20 year career lol

I always thought a PG was what was missing from Yao. Raefer Alston and the corpse of Steve Francis a couple times.

Jameer Nelson. Though I always felt he was a byproduct of Dwight.

Shaq didn’t play with good PGs. Average to above average…


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Shaq also left the Magic in free agency and demanded out of L.A. after he had enough of Kobe. The only example I can think of so far as great big men voluntarily walking away from good point guards was Love and the Wolves, and that was after years of that team being unable to put talent around Love and Rubio.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#54 » by ijspeelman » Fri Nov 4, 2022 1:38 am

Mobley is gonna probably at best be the number 2 or 3 offensive option on a contending team. And that’s not a bad thing.

He’s probably currently our 3rd or 4th option depending on if you consider LeVert higher or lower. He’s most likely going to always be an off-ball guy dependent on a ball handler. Someone like AD, Stoudemire, Garnett, or Duncan.

His championship value mainly will come on the defensive end where he will have plenty of opportunities to shine and grow.

He’ll get chances to improve his roll game, elbow scoring, shooting, and off-ball movement. They throw him enough on-ball creation opportunities for where’s he at currently.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#55 » by JonFromVA » Fri Nov 4, 2022 2:39 am

ijspeelman wrote:Mobley is gonna probably at best be the number 2 or 3 offensive option on a contending team. And that’s not a bad thing.

He’s probably currently our 3rd or 4th option depending on if you consider LeVert higher or lower. He’s most likely going to always be an off-ball guy dependent on a ball handler. Someone like AD, Stoudemire, Garnett, or Duncan.

His championship value mainly will come on the defensive end where he will have plenty of opportunities to shine and grow.

He’ll get chances to improve his roll game, elbow scoring, shooting, and off-ball movement. They throw him enough on-ball creation opportunities for where’s he at currently.


Given what Evan has demonstrated that's fair, but I don't like putting ceilings or over-expectations on young players.

IMO, what we can do is watch for growth. Note his weaknesses and if some day few of them are left, we just might have that superstar.

Might be 7 years down the road ... we just don't know ... we need to first see how quickly he learns and improve.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#56 » by ijspeelman » Fri Nov 4, 2022 2:50 am

JonFromVA wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:Mobley is gonna probably at best be the number 2 or 3 offensive option on a contending team. And that’s not a bad thing.

He’s probably currently our 3rd or 4th option depending on if you consider LeVert higher or lower. He’s most likely going to always be an off-ball guy dependent on a ball handler. Someone like AD, Stoudemire, Garnett, or Duncan.

His championship value mainly will come on the defensive end where he will have plenty of opportunities to shine and grow.

He’ll get chances to improve his roll game, elbow scoring, shooting, and off-ball movement. They throw him enough on-ball creation opportunities for where’s he at currently.


Given what Evan has demonstrated that's fair, but I don't like putting ceilings or over-expectations on young players.

IMO, what we can do is watch for growth. Note his weaknesses and if some day few of them are left, we just might have that superstar.

Might be 7 years down the road ... we just don't know ... we need to first see how quickly he learns and improve.


That’s fair. Who knows what he becomes 7 years down the line.

2 years into Giannis’ career no one assumed he’d be a perennial MVP candidate.
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Re: Celts @ Cavs (the rematch) 

Post#57 » by KuruptedCav » Fri Nov 4, 2022 3:58 am

JonFromVA wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:Mobley is gonna probably at best be the number 2 or 3 offensive option on a contending team. And that’s not a bad thing.

He’s probably currently our 3rd or 4th option depending on if you consider LeVert higher or lower. He’s most likely going to always be an off-ball guy dependent on a ball handler. Someone like AD, Stoudemire, Garnett, or Duncan.

His championship value mainly will come on the defensive end where he will have plenty of opportunities to shine and grow.

He’ll get chances to improve his roll game, elbow scoring, shooting, and off-ball movement. They throw him enough on-ball creation opportunities for where’s he at currently.


Given what Evan has demonstrated that's fair, but I don't like putting ceilings or over-expectations on young players.

IMO, what we can do is watch for growth. Note his weaknesses and if some day few of them are left, we just might have that superstar.

Might be 7 years down the road ... we just don't know ... we need to first see how quickly he learns and improve.

Very happy to see his free throw shooting up, he’s taking more shots outside of the restricted area and those he’s taking are at a more efficient clip than last year.

Not sure what to make of the softer rebounding and block numbers. Seems bigger, stronger, counter intuitive.

Small sample size all around, we’ll see at the quarter post.


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