Game 35: Nets @ Cavs 12/26/2022

[ijspeelman]

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[ijspeelman]

I won’t say too many negative things at half even though we are down 15.

We got it within one at about four to five minutes remaining and then Kyrie and crew couldn’t miss from three, and we couldn’t hit from three.

We are missing some Dean Wade spacing. Lamar Stevens is seemingly refusing to shoot some of his open ones.

I’m not saying we need it this year, but we need to make an effort to get some more spacing wings. Like JonFromVA, maybe Windler can come back and help with that depth, but it’s hard to hope for that at the moment.

[ijspeelman]

15/24 from three for the Nets. Pretty insane.

I do think a few of these have been wide open, but they have made a stupid amount of contested ones.

Meanwhile, 9/30 for the good guys and most misses have been on wide open attempts albeit by Okoro, Stevens, Mobley, and Allen.

[ijspeelman]

Welp. Good come back, but too little too late.

Not much you can do when KD and Kyrie and crew are making that many contested threes and shots.

[JujitsuFlip]

Welp. Good come back, but too little too late.

Not much you can do when KD and Kyrie and crew are making that many contested threes and shots.

Nets will be a tough out in the playoffs. I really despise that the Cavs win now window was bumped up into compete with this Bucks, 76ers, Nets, and to a lesser extent Celtics timelines. Trying to wait them out seemed like a much better strategy.

[jbk1234]

Welp. Good come back, but too little too late.

Not much you can do when KD and Kyrie and crew are making that many contested threes and shots.

Nets will be a tough out in the playoffs. I really despise that the Cavs win now window was bumped up into compete with this Bucks, 76ers, Nets, and to a lesser extent Celtics timelines. Trying to wait them out seemed like a much better strategy.

Would've been nice to see what happened with Jaylen Brown's upcoming free agency before parting with Lauri, Agbaji, and a half a decade's worth of picks. Sometimes you have to strike while the iron's hot as guys like Mitchell don't often come on the market, but Altman sure paid a premium.

[jbk1234]

There was a sequence in the 4th quarter where the Nets helped off of Okoro three plays in a row and Mitchell passed him the ball threw plays in a row. It almost felt deliberate. Okoro had 2 points on three attempts, Kyrie hit a couple three pointers, and Okoro got yanked.

I'm definitely getting the sense that the 4 starters are getting frustrated with the Okoro, Stevens, and LeVert rotation at SF. Every team we play pinches down into the paint off of the corner threes and it's leaving very little room to operate for Allen and Mobley, or Mitchell on drives. We either get *good* Cedi, or we get nothing.

Having Wade and Windler consistently out with injuries is a bad beat, but the Cavs may not be in a position where they can wait until the summer to make a run at TJ Warren on the full MLE. They may to burn future cap space in a trade sooner rather than later.

[JujitsuFlip]

Welp. Good come back, but too little too late.

Not much you can do when KD and Kyrie and crew are making that many contested threes and shots.

Nets will be a tough out in the playoffs. I really despise that the Cavs win now window was bumped up into compete with this Bucks, 76ers, Nets, and to a lesser extent Celtics timelines. Trying to wait them out seemed like a much better strategy.

Would've been nice to see what happened with Jaylen Brown's upcoming free agency before parting with Lauri, Agbaji, and a half a decade's worth of picks. Sometimes you have to strike while the iron's hot as guys like Mitchell don't often come on the market, but Altman sure paid a premium.

Yeah, I understand that's the counter argument, maybe a talent like Mitchell doesn't become available down the line, when those cores finally dissipate.

Just going to be mighty tough to get passed the length and star power in the East, anytime soon.

[JujitsuFlip]

There was a sequence in the 4th quarter where the Nets helped off of Okoro three plays in a row and Mitchell passed him the ball threw plays in a row. It almost felt deliberate. Okoro had 2 points on three attempts, Kyrie hit a couple three pointers, and Okoro got yanked.

I'm definitely getting the sense that the 4 starters are getting frustrated with the Okoro, Stevens, and LeVert rotation at SF. Every team we play pinches down into the paint off of the corner threes and it's leaving very little room to operate for Allen and Mobley, or Mitchell on drives. We either get *good* Cedi, or we get nothing.

Having Wade and Windler consistently out with injuries is a bad beat, but the Cavs may not be in a position where they can wait until the summer to make a run at TJ Warren on the full MLE. They may to burn future cap space in a trade sooner rather than later.

I'm not a big fan of Okoro, I know a couple people on here like him, just leavea a lot to be desired, imo.

Yeah, that SF was always gonna be a hole in year 1. If the Cavs can't make a trade or get anyone to bite on the full MLE in the summer, I assume it'll be a similar hole in year 2. I'd say the first real chance to address it will be draft night 2024 and year 3 will be heading into Mitchell's potential final season on his current deal.

[KuruptedCav]

Welp. Good come back, but too little too late.

Not much you can do when KD and Kyrie and crew are making that many contested threes and shots.

Nets will be a tough out in the playoffs. I really despise that the Cavs win now window was bumped up into compete with this Bucks, 76ers, Nets, and to a lesser extent Celtics timelines. Trying to wait them out seemed like a much better strategy.

Would've been nice to see what happened with Jaylen Brown's upcoming free agency before parting with Lauri, Agbaji, and a half a decade's worth of picks. Sometimes you have to strike while the iron's hot as guys like Mitchell don't often come on the market, but Altman sure paid a premium.

Rather pay a premium today for Mitchell than wait to get Larry Hughes with free agency money.

Put the good guys in a tough spot year one, but it makes the off-season focus clear as an IF diamond.


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[JonFromVA]

There was a sequence in the 4th quarter where the Nets helped off of Okoro three plays in a row and Mitchell passed him the ball threw plays in a row. It almost felt deliberate. Okoro had 2 points on three attempts, Kyrie hit a couple three pointers, and Okoro got yanked.

I'm definitely getting the sense that the 4 starters are getting frustrated with the Okoro, Stevens, and LeVert rotation at SF. Every team we play pinches down into the paint off of the corner threes and it's leaving very little room to operate for Allen and Mobley, or Mitchell on drives. We either get *good* Cedi, or we get nothing.

Having Wade and Windler consistently out with injuries is a bad beat, but the Cavs may not be in a position where they can wait until the summer to make a run at TJ Warren on the full MLE. They may to burn future cap space in a trade sooner rather than later.

I hope it was deliberate.

JBB has at least 3 options, here:

1) Pray Okoro/Stevens start making those corner shots more often.
2) Play someone who can from Cedi, LeVert, Love, Neto, Diakite, or Mobley.
3) Do something schematically other sit the 3 in the corner.

Seems to be going with option 1 for now.

The problem is if we're going to go with the defensive option, they had better defend and create transition. What they can't do is just be content watching the opponents bury 3's, and they shouldn't wait until the clock is running out to start turning up the defensive pressure.

This is also on JBB and his 8 man rotation.

[jbk1234]

There was a sequence in the 4th quarter where the Nets helped off of Okoro three plays in a row and Mitchell passed him the ball threw plays in a row. It almost felt deliberate. Okoro had 2 points on three attempts, Kyrie hit a couple three pointers, and Okoro got yanked.

I'm definitely getting the sense that the 4 starters are getting frustrated with the Okoro, Stevens, and LeVert rotation at SF. Every team we play pinches down into the paint off of the corner threes and it's leaving very little room to operate for Allen and Mobley, or Mitchell on drives. We either get *good* Cedi, or we get nothing.

Having Wade and Windler consistently out with injuries is a bad beat, but the Cavs may not be in a position where they can wait until the summer to make a run at TJ Warren on the full MLE. They may to burn future cap space in a trade sooner rather than later.

I hope it was deliberate.

JBB has at least 3 options, here:

1) Pray Okoro/Stevens start making those corner shots more often.
2) Play someone who can from Cedi, LeVert, Love, Neto, Diakite, or Mobley.
3) Do something schematically other sit the 3 in the corner.

Seems to be going with option 1 for now.

The problem is if we're going to go with the defensive option, they had better defend and create transition. What they can't do is just be content watching the opponents bury 3's, and they shouldn't wait until the clock is running out to start turning up the defensive pressure.

This is also on JBB and his 8 man rotation.

Without knowing, what, if any, instructions from the front office he's getting on Diakite, it's hard to say why he's not getting run. It's worth remembering that Diakite is on a two-way deal and those have automatic triggers once the player has played in enough games.

Aside from Love, none of those other options are *good* but rather slightly better. As our opponent, I'm happy to live or die with those other guys taking uncontested threes. Especially if it means the paint is too crowded for Mobley, Allen, Garland, and Mitchell. Even the trade off you're suggesting presupposes that guys like LeVert won't pull the ball down and drive into a crowded paint when he's not feeling it.

I do think your point about elite shooters negating much of the value Stevens and Okoro add is valid. This isn't our players being unable to keep a guy like Haliburton in front of them where Okoro really helps, this is Kyrie, Warren, and Durant just shooting over Stevens and Okoro.

It seems like the plan was for Love and Wade to provide the requisite spacing in the starting and second units. It might have worked if Wade had the constitution that allowed him to play 70 games a season, but that's an assumption that people should be making a clear-eyed assessment about at this point. They've got a decision to make in terms of LeVert's expiring contract, and as frustration mounts with Allen, Mitchell, and Mobley, they may have to make it sooner rather than later.

[JonFromVA]

And just a reminder, the automatic trigger is being "active" for 50 games, not playing in them (and Diakite and Neto were listed as DNP-CD).

I do think it's dubious to have Stevens or Okoro on the floor when the team is down 10. If the idea is to catch up to the other guys with defense, then the defensive effort has to be turned up; or we risk seeing what happened last night at the start of the 4th.

I'm hoping JBB and the team work through this kind of stuff because it's just draining to pick on the coach game after game, but we all know there may come up a point we need to upgrade at that position too.

[ijspeelman]

Holy ****. After a huge three point efficiency difference, I love to look at wide open, open, and tight three point attempts by both teams on nba.com just to get a view on how we were doing contesting three point shots.

21 wide open three point shots for the Cavs. (33.3%)
3!!! wide open three point shots for the Nets. (100%)
13 open three point shots for the Cavs. (46.2%)
16 open three point shots for the Nets. (56.3%)
2 tight three point shots for the Cavs. (0%)

11 tight three point shots for the Nets. (56.5%!!!)

So it looks like we played excellent defense on their attempts from three, but they were making them anyway. And it shows (as was pretty obvious) we were creating wide open opportunities easily, but for our poor shooters.

Last night wide open + open attempts for each Cavs (and their averages for the year)

Stevens 2/4 / - (29.2% / 42.9%)
Garland 2/4 / 3/3 (47.2% / 32.9%)
Osman 1/4 / 0/1 (34.7% / 29.0%)
Mobley 0/3 / - (21.6% / 33.3%)
Mitchell 1/2 / 2/7 (49.3% / 44.4%)
Allen 0/1 / - (0% / -)
Okoro 0/2 / - (25.8% / 0%)
LeVert 1/1 / 0/1 (37.9% / 32.7%)
Love - / 1/1 (43.6% / 39.1%)

[JujitsuFlip]

Holy ****. After a huge three point efficiency difference, I love to look at wide open, open, and tight three point attempts by both teams on nba.com just to get a view on how we were doing contesting three point shots.

21 wide open three point shots for the Cavs. (33.3%)

3!!! wide open three point shots for the Nets. (100%)

13 open three point shots for the Cavs. (46.2%)

16 open three point shots for the Nets. (56.3%)

2 tight three point shots for the Cavs. (0%)

11 tight three point shots for the Nets. (56.5%!!!)

So it looks like we played excellent defense on their attempts from three, but they were making them anyway. And it shows (as was pretty obvious) we were creating wide open opportunities easily, but for our poor shooters.

Hate to beat a dead horse here but Cavs start two 6'1" guards lol

[JonFromVA]

Holy ****. After a huge three point efficiency difference, I love to look at wide open, open, and tight three point attempts by both teams on nba.com just to get a view on how we were doing contesting three point shots.

21 wide open three point shots for the Cavs. (33.3%)
3!!! wide open three point shots for the Nets. (100%)
13 open three point shots for the Cavs. (46.2%)
16 open three point shots for the Nets. (56.3%)
2 tight three point shots for the Cavs. (0%)

11 tight three point shots for the Nets. (56.5%!!!)

So it looks like we played excellent defense on their attempts from three, but they were making them anyway. And it shows (as was pretty obvious) we were creating wide open opportunities easily, but for our poor shooters.

Last night wide open + open attempts for each Cavs (and their averages for the year)

Stevens 2/4 / - (29.2% / 42.9%)
Garland 2/4 / 3/3 (47.2% / 32.9%)
Osman 1/4 / 0/1 (34.7% / 29.0%)
Mobley 0/3 / - (21.6% / 33.3%)
Mitchell 1/2 / 2/7 (49.3% / 44.4%)
Allen 0/1 / - (0% / -)
Okoro 0/2 / - (25.8% / 0%)
LeVert 1/1 / 0/1 (37.9% / 32.7%)
Love - / 1/1 (43.6% / 39.1%)

Getting a hand up (which we're good at) is a statistical thing that works out in the long-run, but it's not the be all end all of defense. For one thing there are players who like taking contested shots, and others who if they just get to their spots and are feeling in rhythm will bury you. If you can minimally force the shooter to step-back to avoid getting blocked you increase your chances, but plenty of players can kill you on those shots too (including two of our own).

When we have our big back line, we should be playing up on shooters, denying them the ball, and in position to block their shot. Having small perimeter defenders isn't all downside, they should be able to move their feet to stay in front of opponents and use their hands to make it hard for them to dribble; but we can't wait until there's 50 seconds left in the game to play aggressive D.

Which brings me back to JBB's rotations (or lack thereof). We're playing at the slowest pace in the league, and in return we get to keep Garland and/or Mitchell on the floor and keep them engaged on defense; but we don't use our bench to keep our energy level high. That's what we seem to need to play aggressive defense for more than a couple of minutes.

[ijspeelman]

Which brings me back to JBB's rotations (or lack thereof). We're playing at the slowest pace in the league, and in return we get to keep Garland and/or Mitchell on the floor and keep them engaged on defense; but we don't use our bench to keep our energy level high. That's what we seem to need to play aggressive defense for more than a couple of minutes.

May be the most time consuming and least interesting stat dive I've done so far.

Pulled the bench minutes for each bench player from every team for the first 30 games to see how many minutes the starters are getting as compared to the bench.

Unsurprisingly, the Cavs are high, coming in with 67.31% of their minutes being spent on starters.

[JujitsuFlip]

Which brings me back to JBB's rotations (or lack thereof). We're playing at the slowest pace in the league, and in return we get to keep Garland and/or Mitchell on the floor and keep them engaged on defense; but we don't use our bench to keep our energy level high. That's what we seem to need to play aggressive defense for more than a couple of minutes.

May be the most time consuming and least interesting stat dive I've done so far.

Pulled the bench minutes for each bench player from every team for the first 30 games to see how many minutes the starters are getting as compared to the bench.

Unsurprisingly, the Cavs are high, coming in with 67.31% of their minutes being spent on starters.

It's not that the Cavs don't play a bench, they just play a few guys heavy minutes off it.

I'd like to see the slow boring stat of each teams length of rotation, would be time consuming. Say if a guy plays 10 or 12 minutes in a game (or whatever minute amount you think is sufficient, I just always go with 10) is in the rotation and do it that way. Would have to probably exclude garbage time somehow.

But yeah you're right, the short rotation is why all 8 guys are winded at the end of the game when some teams play 11 nightly.

[toooskies]

Any conversation around extending the rotation requires a 4th big to get regular minutes alongside Love, or playing super-small.

[JujitsuFlip]

Any conversation around extending the rotation requires a 4th big to get regular minutes alongside Love, or playing super-small.

Yup, why I'm so nervous to include Love's expiring in any trade because if he is gone, gonna be problematic for the bigs.