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Time to start to panic?

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Time to start to panic? 

Post#1 » by afarmenian » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:29 am

I try not to be prisoner of the moment, but lets have an honest conversation about the last 12 months. The cavs are a half game worse than they were at this point last year. At what point do we start to question this trade and the direction of this team?

The facts are that Mitchell is a fun player to watch puts up gaudy numbers, but the results right now point to about the same number of wins with significantly diminished war chest and very little flexibility going forward. Last year with Levert you gave up assets for the idea of the player you wanted in the backcourt and it did not have an impact on wins and losses correct? They were worse after the Levert trade than before is that a fact?

That is two players, two guards for wait for it.....4 first round picks, a rookie first round pick, an all star this year Lauri, and also a rotation player in Sexton. That gets you LESS win rate than the previous year and overall. This looks bad....really really bad, a complete botch the future bad.....Is anybody feeling any kind of optimism for how this team becomes a true contender?

The only path I see is for Mobley to develop into a superstar in the next couple years which is a pretty ridiculous ask even for a unicorn. I for one have started to feel quite a bit of regret that we maybe blew up something that could have been special for instant gratification.

Gun to my head this was a terrible terrible mistake to break up the team they had I hope to be proven to be an idiot in the coming months.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#2 » by JujitsuFlip » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:56 am

afarmenian wrote:I try not to be prisoner of the moment, but lets have an honest conversation about the last 12 months. The cavs are a half game worse than they were at this point last year. At what point do we start to question this trade and the direction of this team?

The facts are that Mitchell is a fun player to watch puts up gaudy numbers, but the results right now point to about the same number of wins with significantly diminished war chest and very little flexibility going forward. Last year with Levert you gave up assets for the idea of the player you wanted in the backcourt and it did not have an impact on wins and losses correct? They were worse after the Levert trade than before is that a fact?

That is two players, two guards for wait for it.....4 first round picks, a rookie first round pick, an all star this year Lauri, and also a rotation player in Sexton. That gets you LESS win rate than the previous year and overall. This looks bad....really really bad, a complete botch the future bad.....Is anybody feeling any kind of optimism for how this team becomes a true contender?

The only path I see is for Mobley to develop into a superstar in the next couple years which is a pretty ridiculous ask even for a unicorn. I for one have started to feel quite a bit of regret that we maybe blew up something that could have been special for instant gratification.

Gun to my head this was a terrible terrible mistake to break up the team they had I hope to be proven to be an idiot in the coming months.

I did right when the trade was announced lol

Mitchell has never been passed the 2nd round, so 71 points in the RS is cool, if it never results in a finals appearance or better yet a title, it was a wasted trade.

Cavs gave up the rights to their 2022 first round draft pick. Traded unprotected 2025, 2027, and 2029 first rounders. Traded unprotected swap rights for their 2026 and 2028 first rounders. That is highway robbery for a guy who has never proven to be able to win a title.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#3 » by afarmenian » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:00 am

JujitsuFlip wrote:
afarmenian wrote:I try not to be prisoner of the moment, but lets have an honest conversation about the last 12 months. The cavs are a half game worse than they were at this point last year. At what point do we start to question this trade and the direction of this team?

The facts are that Mitchell is a fun player to watch puts up gaudy numbers, but the results right now point to about the same number of wins with significantly diminished war chest and very little flexibility going forward. Last year with Levert you gave up assets for the idea of the player you wanted in the backcourt and it did not have an impact on wins and losses correct? They were worse after the Levert trade than before is that a fact?

That is two players, two guards for wait for it.....4 first round picks, a rookie first round pick, an all star this year Lauri, and also a rotation player in Sexton. That gets you LESS win rate than the previous year and overall. This looks bad....really really bad, a complete botch the future bad.....Is anybody feeling any kind of optimism for how this team becomes a true contender?

The only path I see is for Mobley to develop into a superstar in the next couple years which is a pretty ridiculous ask even for a unicorn. I for one have started to feel quite a bit of regret that we maybe blew up something that could have been special for instant gratification.

Gun to my head this was a terrible terrible mistake to break up the team they had I hope to be proven to be an idiot in the coming months.

I did right when the trade was announced lol

Mitchell has never been passed the 2nd round, so 71 points in the RS is cool, if it never results in a finals appearance or better yet a title, it was a wasted trade.

Cavs gave up the rights to their 2022 first round draft pick. Traded unprotected 2025, 2027, and 2029 first rounders. Traded unprotected swap rights for their 2026 and 2028 first rounders. That is highway robbery for a guy who has never proven to be able to win a title.


Its taken me a few months to come around and people will dismiss and deride these facts but you just can't deny the results at this point. In a years time its been two trades a worst record and minus 5 first rounders a superior starter/allstar and rotation guards depressing that the more you evaluate it for what it is the worst it looks overall.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#4 » by ijspeelman » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:47 am

No. As a lot of us have said when the trade happened, this is a move for the future. These guys are all young and under contract together for at least three years. The hope is they can develop and become an unstoppable force.

Am I saying there are no reasons to worry? No, but maybe im being optimistic, but the hope is this season is the worst we are of the upcoming years. I also still think we take 50+ wins this season and have a solid chance to get to the second round which I still would consider a successful season considering half of our young core have never been to the playoffs.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#5 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:16 am

I wouldn't have made the trade at the time. Not at the price we paid and said as much. Including two shooters and getting back one was where I would've drawn the line. I don't believe for a second that Ainge was prepared to bring Mitchell to camp and the Knicks were effectively trolling him.

That said, what's done is done and there's no need to panic. Wade needs to start. Rubio needs his legs back. Love needs his thumb to heal.

I would not go adding a bunch of future money in a panic deal. There will be a buyout market and I want access to the full MLE. If there are a couple of minor moves that add shooting and a backup big, I'm okay with that, but I'd pass on Hayward and THJ. Don't do anything that will handicap you in a big way going forward.

I don't think this team is playing anywhere near it's potential. I'm not sure JBB will be the guy that gets them there, but it's hard to tell with the team's spacing issues.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#6 » by mcfly1204 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:24 pm

Is it 2025 already? Then no, it's not time to panic...
Well at least we're not Detroit!
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#7 » by toooskies » Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:45 pm

Everyone here who's panicking is crazy. The things that are hurting us are clear and transient.

- Kevin Love's slump since his thumb injury is sufficient to explain the lack of improvement in the team year-over-year. He's on pace to have at least two fewer win shares than last year, and by the eye test the bench units have struggled because he's struggling.
- Cedi's slumping, too.
- Rubio isn't up to speed. He's been a big negative in the minutes he's been on the court. He's taking bad shots and missing good ones, and he looks slow on defense. If we gave the minutes Rubio has been taking to Neto, we probably win a game or three more in the last ten.
- Wade has only played a few minutes and has had a Windler-esque lack of shooting when he's been out there.
- Mitchell's been out and bothered by the groin. In our last ten games, we're 3-3 when Mitchell plays and 1-3 when he doesn't.

Love, Cedi, Rubio, and Wade will all either get better or lose minutes-- Cedi is already losing minutes, and you have to believe Love is headed in that direction. Mitchell will heal.

The team has encountered a lot of adversity and when all is said and done, I expect this team to win more than the 44 games last year. Partially because in our last 35 games, we get to play 10 of them against the Rockets, Pistons, Hornets, Magic, and Spurs while they jockey for draft position.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#8 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:12 pm

Panic? Not, not at all. Our core 4 look great, and Isaac has been playing a whole lot better in the 5th starter role albeit it's strange we haven't given Caris more run with the core 4 given by the numbers that groups is leaps and bounds better than with Okoro or Stevens. Osman has been good too, but JBB doesn't trust him. And the numbers also suggest Wade should get a look when he's back in the swing.

The trade was about establishing that core ... working out the players around them, the rotations, and late game play calling is another matter.

A lot of our success last season was about how Ricky, Kevin, Cedi, and Dean came off the bench and helped ignite our offense. Well, 3 of those guys are dealing with or coming off injury, so, might give them a minute.

Speaking of injury, our training staff and coaching staff really need to get on the same page in terms of protecting our players and making sure they're ready to go when activated. Mitchell playing 38 minutes coming off injury was a very questionable decision no matter how much he wanted to play in the game and put on a show for his friends/family.

But yeah, some of these losses really sucked, but the talent is there. If they don't learn & grow ... JBB will eventually need to be fired, but it doesn't have to be now.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#9 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:54 pm

toooskies wrote:Everyone here who's panicking is crazy. The things that are hurting us are clear and transient.

- Kevin Love's slump since his thumb injury is sufficient to explain the lack of improvement in the team year-over-year. He's on pace to have at least two fewer win shares than last year, and by the eye test the bench units have struggled because he's struggling.
- Cedi's slumping, too.
- Rubio isn't up to speed. He's been a big negative in the minutes he's been on the court. He's taking bad shots and missing good ones, and he looks slow on defense. If we gave the minutes Rubio has been taking to Neto, we probably win a game or three more in the last ten.
- Wade has only played a few minutes and has had a Windler-esque lack of shooting when he's been out there.
- Mitchell's been out and bothered by the groin. In our last ten games, we're 3-3 when Mitchell plays and 1-3 when he doesn't.

Love, Cedi, Rubio, and Wade will all either get better or lose minutes-- Cedi is already losing minutes, and you have to believe Love is headed in that direction. Mitchell will heal.

The team has encountered a lot of adversity and when all is said and done, I expect this team to win more than the 44 games last year. Partially because in our last 35 games, we get to play 10 of them against the Rockets, Pistons, Hornets, Magic, and Spurs while they jockey for draft position.


My only quibble with this is Wade's lack of shooting isn't coming from him passing on open looks when he gets the ball. At least as of yet, his teammates have yet to demonstrate any urgency when it comes to getting him the ball. Love and Wade had one shot attempt between them last night and it wasn't due to them passing on shots. If you want to change the scouting report and open up the floor, then you have to make sure your shooters get shots when they're out.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#10 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:04 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Everyone here who's panicking is crazy. The things that are hurting us are clear and transient.

- Kevin Love's slump since his thumb injury is sufficient to explain the lack of improvement in the team year-over-year. He's on pace to have at least two fewer win shares than last year, and by the eye test the bench units have struggled because he's struggling.
- Cedi's slumping, too.
- Rubio isn't up to speed. He's been a big negative in the minutes he's been on the court. He's taking bad shots and missing good ones, and he looks slow on defense. If we gave the minutes Rubio has been taking to Neto, we probably win a game or three more in the last ten.
- Wade has only played a few minutes and has had a Windler-esque lack of shooting when he's been out there.
- Mitchell's been out and bothered by the groin. In our last ten games, we're 3-3 when Mitchell plays and 1-3 when he doesn't.

Love, Cedi, Rubio, and Wade will all either get better or lose minutes-- Cedi is already losing minutes, and you have to believe Love is headed in that direction. Mitchell will heal.

The team has encountered a lot of adversity and when all is said and done, I expect this team to win more than the 44 games last year. Partially because in our last 35 games, we get to play 10 of them against the Rockets, Pistons, Hornets, Magic, and Spurs while they jockey for draft position.


My only quibble with this is Wade's lack of shooting isn't coming from him passing on open looks when he gets the ball. At least as of yet, his teammates have yet to demonstrate any urgency when it comes to getting him the ball. Love and Wade had one shot attempt between them last night and it wasn't due to them passing on shots. If you want to change the scouting report and open up the floor, then you have to make sure your shooters get shots when they're out.


We should also be running plays for them to get them open shots, but I get the impression JBB ripped all those plays out of the playbook years ago so he could give the players very simple roles - like hey, you small-forward ... we want you to run to the corner and stand there.

If Lauri never had a chance to expand his game here, what shot do Wade, Osman, Windler, etc, have?
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:48 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Everyone here who's panicking is crazy. The things that are hurting us are clear and transient.

- Kevin Love's slump since his thumb injury is sufficient to explain the lack of improvement in the team year-over-year. He's on pace to have at least two fewer win shares than last year, and by the eye test the bench units have struggled because he's struggling.
- Cedi's slumping, too.
- Rubio isn't up to speed. He's been a big negative in the minutes he's been on the court. He's taking bad shots and missing good ones, and he looks slow on defense. If we gave the minutes Rubio has been taking to Neto, we probably win a game or three more in the last ten.
- Wade has only played a few minutes and has had a Windler-esque lack of shooting when he's been out there.
- Mitchell's been out and bothered by the groin. In our last ten games, we're 3-3 when Mitchell plays and 1-3 when he doesn't.

Love, Cedi, Rubio, and Wade will all either get better or lose minutes-- Cedi is already losing minutes, and you have to believe Love is headed in that direction. Mitchell will heal.

The team has encountered a lot of adversity and when all is said and done, I expect this team to win more than the 44 games last year. Partially because in our last 35 games, we get to play 10 of them against the Rockets, Pistons, Hornets, Magic, and Spurs while they jockey for draft position.


My only quibble with this is Wade's lack of shooting isn't coming from him passing on open looks when he gets the ball. At least as of yet, his teammates have yet to demonstrate any urgency when it comes to getting him the ball. Love and Wade had one shot attempt between them last night and it wasn't due to them passing on shots. If you want to change the scouting report and open up the floor, then you have to make sure your shooters get shots when they're out.


We should also be running plays for them to get them open shots, but I get the impression JBB ripped all those plays out of the playbook years ago so he could give the players very simple roles - like hey, you small-forward ... we want you to run to the corner and stand there.

If Lauri never had a chance to expand his game here, what shot do Wade, Osman, Windler, etc, have?


Eh, Lauri was the spacer here not the spacee and that had as much to do with whom he was playing alongside of as anything else. JBB tried a couple of Love/Lauri lineups off the bench and they proved unsalvagable defensively. I think that Lauri is going to come back to earth a little once the Jazz start worrying about getting stops and have to balance their starting personnel accordingly, but that's clearly not the goal this year.

I do share your concerns about JBB though. I try to balance that against obvious examples of dumb individual play on the part of starters who need to know better. All of Mobley, Garland, and Mitchell can be guilty of forcing bad shots, and/or lazy passes, or in Mobley's case, having a good pass sail through his hands. This is before we get into some of the *don't trade me ball* the bench guys are playing. The team is playing more selfishly than last year, and while some of that was to be expected with Mitchell taking the number of shots you expect a No. 1 option to take, it's lead to poorer decision making.

Long way of saying I'm not sure how much of our offense is a design problem, and how much is an improvisation problem.
cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#12 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:10 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
My only quibble with this is Wade's lack of shooting isn't coming from him passing on open looks when he gets the ball. At least as of yet, his teammates have yet to demonstrate any urgency when it comes to getting him the ball. Love and Wade had one shot attempt between them last night and it wasn't due to them passing on shots. If you want to change the scouting report and open up the floor, then you have to make sure your shooters get shots when they're out.


We should also be running plays for them to get them open shots, but I get the impression JBB ripped all those plays out of the playbook years ago so he could give the players very simple roles - like hey, you small-forward ... we want you to run to the corner and stand there.

If Lauri never had a chance to expand his game here, what shot do Wade, Osman, Windler, etc, have?


Eh, Lauri was the spacer here not the spacee and that had as much to do with whom he was playing alongside of as anything else. JBB tried a couple of Love/Lauri lineups off the bench and they proved unsalvagable defensively. I think that Lauri is going to come back to earth a little once the Jazz start worrying about getting stops and have to balance their starting personnel accordingly, but that's clearly not the goal this year.

I do share your concerns about JBB though. I try to balance that against obvious examples of dumb individual play on the part of starters who need to know better. All of Mobley, Garland, and Mitchell can be guilty of forcing bad shots, and/or lazy passes, or in Mobley's case, having a good pass sail through his hands. This is before we get into some of the *don't trade me ball* the bench guys are playing. The team is playing more selfishly than last year, and while some of that was to be expected with Mitchell taking the number of shots you expect a No. 1 option to take, it's lead to poorer decision making.

Long way of saying I'm not sure how much of our offense is a design problem, and how much is an improvisation problem.


Of course JBB will pull Cedi the moment he does something dumb, but doesn't treat the core players that way, so it's both easy and appropriate to lay the blame at his feet. If it's something that improves over time, consider him absolved; but it's not rocket science to run a shooter off some screens and hit him with a pass. We'll do that for Garland, so cool? But anyone else is likely just wasting their energy.

I'm just willing to be patient about it and see where it goes - after all the last time we had an offense and defense this good - we won a championship.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#13 » by JujitsuFlip » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:03 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
We should also be running plays for them to get them open shots, but I get the impression JBB ripped all those plays out of the playbook years ago so he could give the players very simple roles - like hey, you small-forward ... we want you to run to the corner and stand there.

If Lauri never had a chance to expand his game here, what shot do Wade, Osman, Windler, etc, have?


Eh, Lauri was the spacer here not the spacee and that had as much to do with whom he was playing alongside of as anything else. JBB tried a couple of Love/Lauri lineups off the bench and they proved unsalvagable defensively. I think that Lauri is going to come back to earth a little once the Jazz start worrying about getting stops and have to balance their starting personnel accordingly, but that's clearly not the goal this year.

I do share your concerns about JBB though. I try to balance that against obvious examples of dumb individual play on the part of starters who need to know better. All of Mobley, Garland, and Mitchell can be guilty of forcing bad shots, and/or lazy passes, or in Mobley's case, having a good pass sail through his hands. This is before we get into some of the *don't trade me ball* the bench guys are playing. The team is playing more selfishly than last year, and while some of that was to be expected with Mitchell taking the number of shots you expect a No. 1 option to take, it's lead to poorer decision making.

Long way of saying I'm not sure how much of our offense is a design problem, and how much is an improvisation problem.


Of course JBB will pull Cedi the moment he does something dumb, but doesn't treat the core players that way, so it's both easy and appropriate to lay the blame at his feet. If it's something that improves over time, consider him absolved; but it's not rocket science to run a shooter off some screens and hit him with a pass. We'll do that for Garland, so cool? But anyone else is likely just wasting their energy.

I'm just willing to be patient about it and see where it goes - after all the last time we had an offense and defense this good - we won a championship.
They also had some guy named LeBron James back then and I don't see anyone his level on this roster nor do I see an avenue to acquire one.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#14 » by Vampirate » Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:04 pm

This is not the year you guys are going to win it all, it's the year when you are going to be tested in the playoffs and see what your team can really do, handle adversity etc. You build off of that pretty much.

Basically awesome defense, but need a 3rd all star scorer to get to the next level. Next year, maybe Mobley is that player.

As for the Mitchell trade, you do that 10 times out of 10 in the Cavs situation. The only reason you'd say no, is if you can actually trade for someone who's easily better than Mitchell, and those guys almost never enter the market at the age of below 30, let alone just entering their peak seasons.

You guys are easily better than last year regardless of what the record shows.

In the end you know what you're getting out of Garland, Mitchell, and Allen, it all just hinges on Mobley as to what player he becomes that determines your ceiling. As to what that player is it's too early to give exact predictions.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#15 » by ijspeelman » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:05 pm

Vampirate wrote:This is not the year you guys are going to win it all, it's the year when you are going to be tested in the playoffs and see what your team can really do, handle adversity etc. You build off of that pretty much.

Basically awesome defense, but need a 3rd all star scorer to get to the next level. Next year, maybe Mobley is that player.

As for the Mitchell trade, you do that 10 times out of 10 in the Cavs situation. The only reason you'd say no, is if you can actually trade for someone who's easily better than Mitchell, and those guys almost never enter the market at the age of below 30, let alone just entering their peak seasons.

You guys are easily better than last year regardless of what the record shows.

In the end you know what you're getting out of Garland, Mitchell, and Allen, it all just hinges on Mobley as to what player he becomes that determines your ceiling. As to what that player is it's too early to give exact predictions.


Reasonable take from a non-Cavs fan, thank you.

There are a lot of positives from this season and the question is we can grow on them or if this is just the team we are. I see no reason to believe we have no ability to grow into a 60 win team within the next two years (or longer if DMitch stays).

A lot of fans are throwing JB under the bus, and I can see why (line-up management, hero-ball, etc), but there are still a lot of positives I think he's brought. We are a top 2 defense in the league. Still, with how our record is similar to last year, our SRS (a good indicator of off-season success) is third in the league. There have been patches of good team and movement basketball that I think he can build off of.

I'm not ready to pass on JB just yet. I understand others think we need to make our Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr kind of move, and I am not saying they are wrong, but I also don't know if they are right.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#16 » by Vampirate » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:10 pm

ijspeelman wrote:
Vampirate wrote:This is not the year you guys are going to win it all, it's the year when you are going to be tested in the playoffs and see what your team can really do, handle adversity etc. You build off of that pretty much.

Basically awesome defense, but need a 3rd all star scorer to get to the next level. Next year, maybe Mobley is that player.

As for the Mitchell trade, you do that 10 times out of 10 in the Cavs situation. The only reason you'd say no, is if you can actually trade for someone who's easily better than Mitchell, and those guys almost never enter the market at the age of below 30, let alone just entering their peak seasons.

You guys are easily better than last year regardless of what the record shows.

In the end you know what you're getting out of Garland, Mitchell, and Allen, it all just hinges on Mobley as to what player he becomes that determines your ceiling. As to what that player is it's too early to give exact predictions.


Reasonable take from a non-Cavs fan, thank you.

There are a lot of positives from this season and the question is we can grow on them or if this is just the team we are. I see no reason to believe we have no ability to grow into a 60 win team within the next two years (or longer if DMitch stays).

A lot of fans are throwing JB under the bus, and I can see why (line-up management, hero-ball, etc), but there are still a lot of positives I think he's brought. We are a top 2 defense in the league. Still, with how our record is similar to last year, our SRS (a good indicator of off-season success) is third in the league. There have been patches of good team and movement basketball that I think he can build off of.

I'm not ready to pass on JB just yet. I understand others think we need to make our Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr kind of move, and I am not saying they are wrong, but I also don't know if they are right.


I think 60 wins might be high balling it, You typically need yo either have a top 5 player on the team going hard in the regular season or you have an absurd amount of depth over quality of players, in which case your a regular season team, not a playoff one.

Not saying impossible but i'd go more 55 win team, dangerous in the playoffs.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#17 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:36 pm

Vampirate wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
Vampirate wrote:This is not the year you guys are going to win it all, it's the year when you are going to be tested in the playoffs and see what your team can really do, handle adversity etc. You build off of that pretty much.

Basically awesome defense, but need a 3rd all star scorer to get to the next level. Next year, maybe Mobley is that player.

As for the Mitchell trade, you do that 10 times out of 10 in the Cavs situation. The only reason you'd say no, is if you can actually trade for someone who's easily better than Mitchell, and those guys almost never enter the market at the age of below 30, let alone just entering their peak seasons.

You guys are easily better than last year regardless of what the record shows.

In the end you know what you're getting out of Garland, Mitchell, and Allen, it all just hinges on Mobley as to what player he becomes that determines your ceiling. As to what that player is it's too early to give exact predictions.


Reasonable take from a non-Cavs fan, thank you.

There are a lot of positives from this season and the question is we can grow on them or if this is just the team we are. I see no reason to believe we have no ability to grow into a 60 win team within the next two years (or longer if DMitch stays).

A lot of fans are throwing JB under the bus, and I can see why (line-up management, hero-ball, etc), but there are still a lot of positives I think he's brought. We are a top 2 defense in the league. Still, with how our record is similar to last year, our SRS (a good indicator of off-season success) is third in the league. There have been patches of good team and movement basketball that I think he can build off of.

I'm not ready to pass on JB just yet. I understand others think we need to make our Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr kind of move, and I am not saying they are wrong, but I also don't know if they are right.


I think 60 wins might be high balling it, You typically need yo either have a top 5 player on the team going hard in the regular season or you have an absurd amount of depth over quality of players, in which case your a regular season team, not a playoff one.

Not saying impossible but i'd go more 55 win team, dangerous in the playoffs.


The trick is to be healthy, rested, and playing in a dominating 60+ win fashion entering the playoffs.

I do think it's interesting you think the Cavs need a 3rd scorer? I think sometimes even the Cavs forget the type of offense they can generate by simply involving their big men.

IMO, the playoffs are more about matchups: can you stop this, can you counter that, and having a coach smart enough to create and exploit those mismatches. If there's a team that can take our 2 guards and our 2 bigs out of the game ... I suppose at that point we might wish our SF could do something ... but hey that's when you might see Caris LeVert go off for 40pts.

One thing I'll guarantee is that it's really hard to win a playoff series without the respect of the refs, so whatever it takes to get there it will need to happen. Mitchell needs to get that call .vs. Hartenstein last night. Their first thought needs to be, Mitchell doesn't miss a shot like that - he must have been fouled.

That's how a star is born ...
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#18 » by Vampirate » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:51 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Vampirate wrote:
ijspeelman wrote:
Reasonable take from a non-Cavs fan, thank you.

There are a lot of positives from this season and the question is we can grow on them or if this is just the team we are. I see no reason to believe we have no ability to grow into a 60 win team within the next two years (or longer if DMitch stays).

A lot of fans are throwing JB under the bus, and I can see why (line-up management, hero-ball, etc), but there are still a lot of positives I think he's brought. We are a top 2 defense in the league. Still, with how our record is similar to last year, our SRS (a good indicator of off-season success) is third in the league. There have been patches of good team and movement basketball that I think he can build off of.

I'm not ready to pass on JB just yet. I understand others think we need to make our Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr kind of move, and I am not saying they are wrong, but I also don't know if they are right.


I think 60 wins might be high balling it, You typically need yo either have a top 5 player on the team going hard in the regular season or you have an absurd amount of depth over quality of players, in which case your a regular season team, not a playoff one.

Not saying impossible but i'd go more 55 win team, dangerous in the playoffs.


The trick is to be healthy, rested, and playing in a dominating 60+ win fashion entering the playoffs.

I do think it's interesting you think the Cavs need a 3rd scorer? I think sometimes even the Cavs forget the type of offense they can generate by simply involving their big men.

IMO, the playoffs are more about matchups: can you stop this, can you counter that, and having a coach smart enough to create and exploit those mismatches. If there's a team that can take our 2 guards and our 2 bigs out of the game ... I suppose at that point we might wish our SF could do something ... but hey that's when you might see Caris LeVert go off for 40pts.

One thing I'll guarantee is that it's really hard to win a playoff series without the respect of the refs, so whatever it takes to get there it will need to happen. Mitchell needs to get that call .vs. Hartenstein last night. Their first thought needs to be, Mitchell doesn't miss a shot like that - he must have been fouled.

That's how a star is born ...


Essentially if Mobley makes a big leap offensively in the next couple of years, your team might resemble the Celtics when they had Garnett. Basically a defensively dominant team with 3 All Star scorers. Of course asking a sophomore to develop into that in year 2 is a bit much but I can't predict 2-3 years into the future.

As for that happening, who knows. I can't really predict that outcome either way. I honestly think the biggest thing to watch for Mobley in the playoffs is how he'll handle possible struggles, adversity etc.

The playoffs basically expose everyone's weakness.
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#19 » by mcfly1204 » Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:00 am

How much of a leap does Mobley really need to take to be on par with Boston Garnett? He needs to work on his jumper, but if he can start hitting the mid range with efficiency, how far off is he?
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Re: Time to start to panic? 

Post#20 » by KuruptedCav » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:05 am

mcfly1204 wrote:How much of a leap does Mobley really need to take to be on par with Boston Garnett? He needs to work on his jumper, but if he can start hitting the mid range with efficiency, how far off is he?

Consistency, leadership, conditioning, experience. He’s still learning his game. Boston Garnett was studying his opponent’s game.


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