Game 40: Cavs @ Thunder 1/16/2025

[jbk1234]

You really want this option but that's not at all the takeaway I got from last night's game. Dean Wade did fine at C in his stints last night, roughly 10 minutes of game time.

The things I took away from last night:
- Georges Niang struggles against teams that are playing athletes all over the court. We need a better backup 4 in those situations, even if that's just shifting Wade's minutes there instead of starting him at the 3.
- The whole team needs to protect the ball.
- Refs really need to call fouls on tie-ups that start with an illegal move before the defender gets their hand on the ball.
- Shooting variance didn't help us, but we didn't bring our A game otherwise and they definitely played at a higher level than they did in our last matchup. Not sure if Shai shoots long 2s like layups all the time like that.
- Mitchell lost a step but his 3-point shooting is masking that a bit. But he can't beat Lu Dort right now.
- Garland needs to get more of the it's-my-time gene. He was as hot as Shai last night but only took over for a short stretch.
- We haven't been getting good ball movement lately.

Houston's going to be a challenge next week, they're going to attack all the same weaknesses.

Dean Wade did not do fine at center. That unit got cooked. It's not all on Dean. If he's at center, then Niang or a non forward is playing PF. OKC easily could've hung 150 on us last night if garbage time didn't start 2 minutes into the 4th.

Check the lineup data: https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250116&game=CLEOKC

Wade with no Allen and no Mobley was a net +1 in the 2nd quarter from 5:13 to 1:18. In the 3rd quarter they played Wade at C from 6:52 till the end of the quarter, and those lineups were net -2 overall, and +2 while Darius was out there. So a net of -1.

Two-bigs (three if you count Wade) was a net of -5. Mobley-no-Allen was -19, Allen-no-Mobley was -13.

The lineup that got absolutely roasted was the LeVert/Niang/Strus shift in the second half of the first quarter. They combined for 4 TOs and 4 missed shots the rest of the quarter after Niang subbed in with 5:37 left, and Shai pretty much single-handedly roasted them all on defense too.

Yeah , SGA scored 11 points (OKC scored 15) in the 4 minutes where Dean was the only big. That's 180 point rate over 48 minutes. That is far from *fine.* Garland scored 11 points (Cavs 16 over the same stretch). We ended up +1 because Garland was able to keep pace with SGA by making much more difficult shots.

Here's the play by play. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/playbyplay/NBA_20250116_CLE@OKC/

[JujitsuFlip]

Your last few sentences made me a laugh a bit, because you just described Dean Wade. If you're thinking about sliding Cam Johnson to play a little 2, good luck.

Yes, Wade, except he gets hurt every spring. We need a guy who can actually play next to the core4 come April, May, and if we're lucky June.

I stand firm on the idea of not paying a bench player $26+ million.

I couldn't care less about a player's salary in relation to whether or not they start or come off the bench. You'd rather pay Cam Johnson $20+ million to play Wade's role, as oppose to filling the need of having a quality bench big who can log minutes at the 4 and 5? Keep in mind that Cam Johnson has not exactly been the poster boy for healthy NBA players.

Yup, i sure would because then that moves Wade to the bench and i much prefer Wade over Collins as the 3rd big. And a million times over want Wade than Niang in that slot.

Wade is our starting SF because we have no good options. He is much better suited as that stretch 3/4 off the bench.

If you're looking for a guy to eat minutes at 5 off the bench, it's not Collins. His extra 7 pounds on Wade are irrelevant.

[toooskies]

Dean Wade did not do fine at center. That unit got cooked. It's not all on Dean. If he's at center, then Niang or a non forward is playing PF. OKC easily could've hung 150 on us last night if garbage time didn't start 2 minutes into the 4th.

Check the lineup data: https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250116&game=CLEOKC

Wade with no Allen and no Mobley was a net +1 in the 2nd quarter from 5:13 to 1:18. In the 3rd quarter they played Wade at C from 6:52 till the end of the quarter, and those lineups were net -2 overall, and +2 while Darius was out there. So a net of -1.

Two-bigs (three if you count Wade) was a net of -5. Mobley-no-Allen was -19, Allen-no-Mobley was -13.

The lineup that got absolutely roasted was the LeVert/Niang/Strus shift in the second half of the first quarter. They combined for 4 TOs and 4 missed shots the rest of the quarter after Niang subbed in with 5:37 left, and Shai pretty much single-handedly roasted them all on defense too.

Yeah , SGA scored 11 points (OKC scored 15) in the 4 minutes where Dean was the only big. That's 180 point rate over 48 minutes. That is far from *fine.* Garland scored 11 points (Cavs 16 over the same stretch). We ended up +1 because Garland was able to keep pace with SGA by making much more difficult shots.

Here's the play by play. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/playbyplay/NBA_20250116_CLE@OKC/

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 1
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 9-foot running pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 22-foot step back jumpshot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 1-foot two point shot
Jalen Williams makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Cason Wallace makes two point shot (Jalen Williams assists) // at the rim
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 2
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 2 of 2

So two shots at the rim (don't remember the Okoro foul that put Shai shooting 2) and a barrage of midrange jumpers. Probably wouldn't have mattered who was in at C.

[jbk1234]

Check the lineup data: https://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20250116&game=CLEOKC

Wade with no Allen and no Mobley was a net +1 in the 2nd quarter from 5:13 to 1:18. In the 3rd quarter they played Wade at C from 6:52 till the end of the quarter, and those lineups were net -2 overall, and +2 while Darius was out there. So a net of -1.

Two-bigs (three if you count Wade) was a net of -5. Mobley-no-Allen was -19, Allen-no-Mobley was -13.

The lineup that got absolutely roasted was the LeVert/Niang/Strus shift in the second half of the first quarter. They combined for 4 TOs and 4 missed shots the rest of the quarter after Niang subbed in with 5:37 left, and Shai pretty much single-handedly roasted them all on defense too.

Yeah , SGA scored 11 points (OKC scored 15) in the 4 minutes where Dean was the only big. That's 180 point rate over 48 minutes. That is far from *fine.* Garland scored 11 points (Cavs 16 over the same stretch). We ended up +1 because Garland was able to keep pace with SGA by making much more difficult shots.

Here's the play by play. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/playbyplay/NBA_20250116_CLE@OKC/

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 1
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 9-foot running pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 22-foot step back jumpshot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 1-foot two point shot
Jalen Williams makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Cason Wallace makes two point shot (Jalen Williams assists) // at the rim
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 2
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 2 of 2

So two shots at the rim (don't remember the Okoro foul that put Shai shooting 2) and a barrage of midrange jumpers. Probably wouldn't have mattered who was in at C.

Surrendering points at a 180ppg rate is what it is. SGA is an MVP candidate, but Okoro didn't even slow him down. Only team defenses work against guys like that.

We're not a good defensive team without Allen and Mobley on the floor together. We're a passable defensive team with Wade and one of them. We're a bad defensive team whenever Niang is on the floor. It doesn't always matter because not every team has a MVP candidate and sometimes we out score our opponents with those units, but I'm growing increasingly concerned about how many meh defenders we have in the rotation.

[toooskies]

Yeah , SGA scored 11 points (OKC scored 15) in the 4 minutes where Dean was the only big. That's 180 point rate over 48 minutes. That is far from *fine.* Garland scored 11 points (Cavs 16 over the same stretch). We ended up +1 because Garland was able to keep pace with SGA by making much more difficult shots.

Here's the play by play. https://www.cbssports.com/nba/gametracker/playbyplay/NBA_20250116_CLE@OKC/

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 1
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 9-foot running pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 22-foot step back jumpshot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 1-foot two point shot
Jalen Williams makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Cason Wallace makes two point shot (Jalen Williams assists) // at the rim
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 2
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 2 of 2

So two shots at the rim (don't remember the Okoro foul that put Shai shooting 2) and a barrage of midrange jumpers. Probably wouldn't have mattered who was in at C.

Surrendering points at a 180ppg rate is what it is. SGA is an MVP candidate, but Okoro didn't even slow him down. Only team defenses work against guys like that.

We're not a good defensive team without Allen and Mobley on the floor together. We're a passable defensive team with Wade and one of them. We're a bad defensive team whenever Niang is on the floor. It doesn't always matter because not every team has a MVP candidate and sometimes we out score our opponents with those units, but I'm growing increasingly concerned about how many meh defenders we have in the rotation.

Mobley and Allen in the paint don’t just magically turn midrange 2s into misses any more than Wade. Shai wasn’t getting stopped by anybody last night even when we sent two guys at him.

[JonFromVA]

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 1
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 9-foot running pullup jump shot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 22-foot step back jumpshot
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes 1-foot two point shot
Jalen Williams makes 14-foot pullup jump shot
Cason Wallace makes two point shot (Jalen Williams assists) // at the rim
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 1 of 2
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander makes free throw 2 of 2

So two shots at the rim (don't remember the Okoro foul that put Shai shooting 2) and a barrage of midrange jumpers. Probably wouldn't have mattered who was in at C.

Surrendering points at a 180ppg rate is what it is. SGA is an MVP candidate, but Okoro didn't even slow him down. Only team defenses work against guys like that.

We're not a good defensive team without Allen and Mobley on the floor together. We're a passable defensive team with Wade and one of them. We're a bad defensive team whenever Niang is on the floor. It doesn't always matter because not every team has a MVP candidate and sometimes we out score our opponents with those units, but I'm growing increasingly concerned about how many meh defenders we have in the rotation.

Mobley and Allen in the paint don’t just magically turn midrange 2s into misses any more than Wade. Shai wasn’t getting stopped by anybody last night even when we sent two guys at him.

We'd have to get physical with him like the Thunder were with us, but we've gotten used to outscoring teams answering their 2's with our own 3's.

A kick in the pants isn't so bad when there's still time to do something about it.

[JujitsuFlip]

If there's a silver lining, it's that this game occurred before the trade deadline. They need to make a move that allows them to keep Allen and Mobley on the court more and stagger them less in certain matchups.

The rumor this morning is Cam Johnson.

I assume LeVert is the main salary.

The second guy can be Niang or Okoro, salary wise.

If it is not either of them then it could be LeVert + Tyson & TT (or Merrill or CPJ).

I just really do not want to trade the 2031 Cavs 1st rounder and that is probably what it will take, since Cam has 2.5 years left on his deal.

I just don't understand what Cam gives us that we don't already have. We've got Niang, Merrill, Strus and Ty off the bench already. I see the argument at the margins: slightly better than Niang defensively (but less rebounding), taller than Merrill so better able to get his shot off, same with Ty (but zero playmaking or ballhandling), more consistent shooter than Strus (but worse defensively).

I mean did the front office watch the same game I did last night? What about our roster screams out we need a player like Cam. We should be asking about Sharpe.

We don't need some low level big. You have that in Thor and TT.

Cavs need a starting SF with size, so Wade can move back to the bench and eat all of Ninag's minutes in the rotation.

[jbk1234]

The rumor this morning is Cam Johnson.

I assume LeVert is the main salary.

The second guy can be Niang or Okoro, salary wise.

If it is not either of them then it could be LeVert + Tyson & TT (or Merrill or CPJ).

I just really do not want to trade the 2031 Cavs 1st rounder and that is probably what it will take, since Cam has 2.5 years left on his deal.

I just don't understand what Cam gives us that we don't already have. We've got Niang, Merrill, Strus and Ty off the bench already. I see the argument at the margins: slightly better than Niang defensively (but less rebounding), taller than Merrill so better able to get his shot off, same with Ty (but zero playmaking or ballhandling), more consistent shooter than Strus (but worse defensively).

I mean did the front office watch the same game I did last night? What about our roster screams out we need a player like Cam. We should be asking about Sharpe.

We don't need some low level big. You have that in Thor and TT.

Cavs need a starting SF with size, so Wade can move back to the bench and eat all of Ninag's minutes in the rotation.

Have you watched Cam play defense?

[JonFromVA]

I just don't understand what Cam gives us that we don't already have. We've got Niang, Merrill, Strus and Ty off the bench already. I see the argument at the margins: slightly better than Niang defensively (but less rebounding), taller than Merrill so better able to get his shot off, same with Ty (but zero playmaking or ballhandling), more consistent shooter than Strus (but worse defensively).

I mean did the front office watch the same game I did last night? What about our roster screams out we need a player like Cam. We should be asking about Sharpe.

We don't need some low level big. You have that in Thor and TT.

Cavs need a starting SF with size, so Wade can move back to the bench and eat all of Ninag's minutes in the rotation.

Have you watched Cam play defense?

I've only seem him play against us and never been particularly impressed. From what I read he's too slow to guard down and too small to guard very far up. Just a 6'10" wingspan (same as Niang, LeVert and Mitchell) and he's been injured a lot through his career.

He is shooting the ball really well this season, though, but so was LeVert until recently.

What do you see?

[jbk1234]

We don't need some low level big. You have that in Thor and TT.

Cavs need a starting SF with size, so Wade can move back to the bench and eat all of Ninag's minutes in the rotation.

Have you watched Cam play defense?

I've only seem him play against us and never been particularly impressed. From what I read he's too slow to guard down and too small to guard very far up. Just a 6'10" wingspan (same as Niang, LeVert and Mitchell) and he's been injured a lot through his career.

He is shooting the ball really well this season, though, but so was LeVert until recently.

What do you see?

As a stretch 4, he's a passable defender on a good day. He can't really defend the 3.