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No Vince Carter

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heathmalc
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#21 » by heathmalc » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:09 am

Scouting report: Carter is an ace scorer because he can do it so many different ways. Though his stupendous leaping ability makes him an explosive finisher, he's also an excellent outside shooter who must be played tightly. He's strong off the dribble, too, with good vision and the muscle to finish plays at the rim.

Carter doesn't score in the post as well as you'd expect for a player with his physical attributes, and the oft-heard criticism is that he settles for too many jump shots and doesn't attack the basket enough.

He's more explosive than laterally quick, and as a result Carter's defense isn't on par with his offense. It's not that he's a bad defender -- he has good size and can play both wing positions, and he helps on the boards -- but he's nobody's idea of a stopper either.


The thing about Carter is that he is a quiet person. He is not the loudest voice in the locker-room. He is more of a Ben Wallace than a LeBron James in this respect. One thing that teams have always expected of Vince is leadership. But Vince is more of a follower with Superstar skills. He always hated Toronto, and he hated his coach in Toronto...as did all the players. When he went to Jersey, the Nets went to the finals for two years... not bad considering that he was the only real go to scorer. Kidd was the reason that Jersey was playing team-ball... but Vince was the "reason" they got to the finals... as Kidd said himself. As for vince being an "ego" guy... You must be thinking of someone else... because that is not Vince Carter. Vince is like LeBron in the sense that he likes to make the extra pass, and does it very well too. He is also like LeBron in his ability to get to the rim. Has he got discouraged? or down? Yeah... but at the same time that people (Kidd) said that Vince quit on the team, people said the same thing about Kidd... and from the things that Kidd said in the papers last year, I believe that it was more Kidd than Vince. And just think... we wanted him here (thank God for unanswered prayers).

Vince Carter would be an excellent addition to our team... and would make us nearly unbeatable. We'd have so many interchangeable parts.... I dont know if any team could even win 2 games from us in a 7 game series. Add-in a big-man (we still have our full MLE), and the Cavaliers will win the NBA championship for sure... and likely have LeBron sign an extension next summer.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#22 » by DariusRickyMilesDavis » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:40 am

I think Vince would be a solid addition. There are a lot of lanes opened up by the double on Lebron and our ability to shoot the three. Carter can play the bigger guards, which basically replaces Pavlovic in that regard. He has an awesome ability to get to the rim. For the people worried about his age, remember we also have Big Ben's deal coming off the books next season and then VC would end the next year, so we maintain flexibility throughout. Unless you have a long term player in mind--losing Wally for VC is no loss at all.

I don't know where he would be a negative. If the option Wally for VC is on the table, it's a no brainer. However, like NetsForce pointed out, why would NJ do that?
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#23 » by kiwibrindle » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:02 pm

Eyejam, Only one option on your list makes sense. Due to the fact that we need a no doubt big from Wally's money. I don't even have to repeat it. Get him now! Then you can resign them both in 2010.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#24 » by Icness » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:59 pm

L&H_05 wrote:
Icness wrote:
What did he accomplish with RJ and Jason Kidd next to him? Jefferson is a good scorer and Kidd is the best playmaker of this generation. Vince struggled to get his when RJ was scoring in bunches and it affected his overall play. He's one of the least clutch players I can think of in all of pro sports. He'd probably be worth a couple of extra regular season wins on those nights where he's feeling 100% healthy and doesn't take a quarter or two off at either end. But I would rather have Boobie or West on the floor in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. And you don't make a deal for a guy like Vince and then not play him in crunch time, just doesn't work that way.
I couldn't disagree anymore... This team is better than those Nets team... Vince was still the primary scorer on that team, the attention defensively was focused on stopping him... RJ was nice secondary scorer, Vince would be that here... He would make things much easier on LeBron...

You're comparing his situation in New Jersey and somehow won't open your mind up enough to see the possibilities and the differences...

These are some of the same things people were suggesting about Mo... (Ego, cancer, shoot first, not a team player etc....)

Vince is not a selfish player.. Sure, maybe in his younger days he was, but look at the way the guy plays now.. He's not a selfish player at all...

Icness wrote:Plus, adding an ego and a prolific scorer to this lineup means the cohesion is gone, the rotation gets shuffled, the roles get screwy. That takes time to sort out and we're finally getting all the pieces together real nicely. Why fool with that when the reward almost certainly isn't any better than what we've got already? Like I said, keep Vince away--let Orlando or Houston trade for him and watch him sink their playoff ships.
My goodness.. You're literally portraying the guy in the same light as Allen Iverson, and you could not be more wrong in this situation...

I'm sure there's no changing your mind, and I won't try... However, you are flat out incorrect and way off base with your opinion on VC...


On the first one--you're right, he's not a selfish guy. Never really has been. But he is a guy who needs shots to be effective, and with Mo and Lebron and Z, I'm not sure those shots are there in this offense. I can also see where Mo or Delonte might wonder, "Hmmm, they just brought Vince Carter in, like I'm not getting the job of ancillary scorer done well enough."

And Vince does have an ego. He's a quiet guy, not an in-your-face demonstrative guy. Don't mistake that for him not thinking he's great and deserves to be viewed as such. And that's not a negative at all in my book; to be great you need a certain level of ego and self-confidence. My point about his ego is that he is used to a certain level of acheivement and touches, and he isn't likely to get that in Cleveland. That's a very real change to what he likes to do on the court. Some guys can handle that, some can't. Most UNC guys can so he's got that working in his favor. I'd rather not find out if Vince can handle it or not when this team is already statistically one of the 10 best in NBA history. We don't need the variable.

On the second--I would say the same about pretty much any player. This team does not need yet another dynamic shakeup, it needs continuity and cohesion. That is irrespective of my opinion of Vince Carter. If they want to move Wally's deal for a frontcourt role player (like Joe Smith) or even a slick-handling #3 PG, that's fine. But you don't fool with the primary rotation when you're playing as well and as consistent as what these Cavs are. I don't want to see Mike Brown try to work in a #3 scorer (which is the role Vince would have here) who ideally plays the same position as Lebron. That means the rotation is giong to get fooled around. Brown has to conduct yet another in-season chemistry experiment, something he did very poorly last season IMO. We're 23-4 for a reason--this group plays well together. Why interject something dramatic into that? Makes no sense, Vince or anyone.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#25 » by The Main Event » Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:46 pm

Icness wrote:
L&H_05 wrote:Icness-

You can't base a comparison off of complete opposites..We have no idea what Vince would do here with this lineup... He's never played with another dominant scorer that garners the entire defense's attention...

IMO, you put a talent like Vince with his skill set on this particular roster, you really put defenses at a disadvantage... Vince is a triple threat player... He can drive, shoot, and create...


What did he accomplish with RJ and Jason Kidd next to him? Jefferson is a good scorer and Kidd is the best playmaker of this generation. Vince struggled to get his when RJ was scoring in bunches and it affected his overall play. He's one of the least clutch players I can think of in all of pro sports. He'd probably be worth a couple of extra regular season wins on those nights where he's feeling 100% healthy and doesn't take a quarter or two off at either end. But I would rather have Boobie or West on the floor in the 4th quarter of a playoff game. And you don't make a deal for a guy like Vince and then not play him in crunch time, just doesn't work that way.

Plus, adding an ego and a prolific scorer to this lineup means the cohesion is gone, the rotation gets shuffled, the roles get screwy. That takes time to sort out and we're finally getting all the pieces together real nicely. Why fool with that when the reward almost certainly isn't any better than what we've got already? Like I said, keep Vince away--let Orlando or Houston trade for him and watch him sink their playoff ships.


Im from Toronto and am not fond of Vince for obvious reasons but come on, really? You have to at least give him credit for being clutch. Not ALL the time. But he is definitely in the argument for Top Ten most Clutch players in the league.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#26 » by eyejayem » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:57 pm

I think Carter fitting in is very easy.

His minutes won't be a problem because Wally avgs 20 and Pavs is avg 25-30 min(plus Lebron has been around 40min/game)the last couple of games but as expected Boobie came back and Pavs will be between 15-20(yesterday he had ~16min). I think we ask Carter to play 30-35 min. Lebron can go back to 35 and Boobie gets his ~25 min.

His shots are a little different. Wally and Pavs have taken ~15-20 shots. Lebron is not like Kobe and Wade who take 25+ shots a game. Lebron has stuck around 20 and I think that is more than reasonable since he hits them at a higher percentage but wouldn't that go higher with Carter on the court at times? Carter's percentage is 45% which is better than Wally(42%) and Pavs(40%). 39% from 3 which is better than both, plus he takes ~5 3pt att/game just like the two of them combined. Carter at his %s should avg 16-18 pts if his minutes go down.(3pt/2pt/FT) And thats only if things don't open up.

I see Carter being the man in that second unit and is interchangable at the starting SG. He directly replaces Pavs and Wally production in their span of their mins without taking Boobie min and Lebron goes back to avg 35 min(This is important because Lebron didn't take off this summer and Kobe is rumored to look tired). He is the first off the bench like Manu with starter min. I think the only issue would be Carter playing off-ball more than he has over the last couple of months. But he played with Kidd a couple of years,I am almost certain he did't handle the ball much. I can see running plays through Mo,Lebron or Vince. Or spread the floor with a lineup of Mo, Boobie, Vince, Lebron, and Z. Lebron gets to go to the hole or you give up a three.

Mo Williams/ Boobie Gibson/ Delonte
Delonte West/ Vince Carter/Boobie
Lebron James/ Vince Carter/ Pavs
Ben Wallace/ Lebron James/ JJ Hickson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas/ Anderson Varajao
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#27 » by mg » Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:19 pm

From Chad Ford's chat today. I don't often agree with Ford but he's got a legitimate point here:

Matt (Lincoln, NE): Who do you think the Cavs should target? Jamison? Carter?

SportsNation Chad Ford: Cavs love Carter ... but here's the issue. If they swap some expiring contracts for VC, they just ate up all of their future cap flexibility AND the handed the Nets a BUNCH more room in 2010 ... enough to add LeBron, Bosh and more. Strategically, is that a smart move for Cleveland? I don't think so. You think LeBron will be more attracted a team with two young stars like Devin Harris and Chris Bosh or to the Cavs with a bunch of fading stars like VC, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, etc.
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Re: No Vince Carter 

Post#28 » by eyejayem » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:34 am

I definately agree.

But is that the risk you take?

You have the cap in 2010 and do what you can with what you got.
Or you increase your chance for a title now and give the Raps there best chance at getting collateral(+2 picks) in a S&T plus you get Bosh more money, where no one else can give him.

Toronto won't be able to get anyone because there are more teams in nice places with cap(NY,NJ,Mia,Cle,etc) or places that can offer their player more money(Dal,Phx,Atl). No one is rushing to Toronto to play with Calderon.

So Raps either trade Bosh next year for longer contracts, maybe Portland for Lamarcus Aldridge, Travis Outlaw + 1st but that may be too high for someone who can leave at the end of the year. So if he is kept, Vince,JJ Hickson, player we draft this year, and 1 or 2 1st rd picks is the best they would get without losing him for nothing. They let Vince expire and go after Dwight or pick up the option and go after Chris Paul the next year but there are less suiters in those years and they have better chances of winning a bidding war.

But after saying that, I would have to save the cap and hope we can max a deal even if it isn't for Bosh. Obviously we have more options that way.

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