Cavs rumored to be discussing TT/Deandre Jordan swap

[QRich3]

I cannot believe the love for TT on here. TT for Deandre Jordan is a trade you make all day, every day, and twice on Sunday. Cavs desperately need a shot blocker and defensive presence in the middle. TT is horrible, offensively and defensively. Not to mention he is over paid by about $10 million a year. I guess some people forgot the last two finals when he got owned by Bogut and Pachulia. TT and Shumpert for Jordan will do. To get rid of TT and Shumps contracts would be a blessing for the Cavs.


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Here's my response - outside of the first round, when has DeAndre Jordan ever showed up big in a playoff series for the Clippers? What has Gasol done against the Warriors?

Frankly, I think guys like Noel & Capela who can protect the rim, and switch out to guard Durant on the perimeter, are far more valuable against the Warriors. If everyone is going to be singularly focused on the Warriors, at least show me a big man they haven't figured out.

Quick google search:

Watch on YouTube

http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/04/30/deandre-jordan-a-big-problem-for-warriors/

So, I'm not here to force Jordan up your throats or anything, I actually think he'll be traded somewhere else that's not Cleveland. But I'm a bit sick of the "Jordan is not useful against the Warriors" hot take. The Clippers haven't played a competitive game against the Warriors in some time, and I don't think a bunch of regular season blowouts where he plays 25 minutes is the best way to judge him.

But he killed the Warriors in that 2014 series, like I haven't seen many people do since. Obviously the Warriors' players have improved a lot since then, and their system is different, but so has Jordan and the Clippers system (which helps a lot making him look worse defending in space). I still think the best way to counter them is killing them in the offensive glass and blitzing the P&R's and rush to recover. Which was the way the Clippers played in that series, and Jordan was key in shutting down Curry, he was awesome trapping him in the perimeter and recovering. He also killed them in the boards, ask any Warriors fan that was following the team back then (not easy to find, I know). He was absolutely key in that series.

Again, the Warriors play differently now, and trapping Curry is not as easy when not only Thompson but Durant are on the weakside, but that series was proof that he can defend the Curry/Draymond P&R. The Clippers just changed their defensive scheme since then, and they make him stay back when defending the P&R, which helps showcase his strengths most of the time, but also highlights his "defending wings" deficiencies more than it used to.

That's not even talking about how much the rest of his strengths could help a team like the Cavaliers. Start spamming Lebron/Jordan pick'n'rolls against them and watch the weakside players have to help Zaza/McGee/West before they get embarrassed lob after lob. Then you have your 3PT shooters open cause Jordan's sucked 2 or 3 man into the paint in a way no current Cavalier can.

Noel and Capela are so much worse defenders than Jordan, taking everything into account, that I'm shocked you even think about them rather than DJ. Noel can defend the perimeter if by defending the perimeter you mean gambling every play and getting it wrong leading to defensive breakdowns 70% of the time. Sure it gives you 2 or 3 highlights every game that are really pretty and make you think of his potential, but you'll be out of the game by the 2nd quarter. I guess people still think of Jordan as the dumb guy who jumps at every pump fake he was 3/4 years ago, but he has become one of the top rim protectors in the game since then. That includes calling the proper P&R coverage when he has to switch, which is a important as having quick feet. I'm pretty sure he'd be so much better than Tristan on both ends against the Warriors.

Oh by the way, Lue was Doc's defensive assistant in that Warriors series, I'm sure he'd remember how to use DJ.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you anything, I wouldn't move the Brooklyn pick or Love if I were the Cavs, and I don't think the Clippers are gonna be interested in anything else. But it irks me when people judge Jordan wrongly, cause it seems pretty much everyone that doesn't watch him on a nightly basis does.

[jbk1234]

I cannot believe the love for TT on here. TT for Deandre Jordan is a trade you make all day, every day, and twice on Sunday. Cavs desperately need a shot blocker and defensive presence in the middle. TT is horrible, offensively and defensively. Not to mention he is over paid by about $10 million a year. I guess some people forgot the last two finals when he got owned by Bogut and Pachulia. TT and Shumpert for Jordan will do. To get rid of TT and Shumps contracts would be a blessing for the Cavs.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Here's my response - outside of the first round, when has DeAndre Jordan ever showed up big in a playoff series for the Clippers? What has Gasol done against the Warriors?

Frankly, I think guys like Noel & Capela who can protect the rim, and switch out to guard Durant on the perimeter, are far more valuable against the Warriors. If everyone is going to be singularly focused on the Warriors, at least show me a big man they haven't figured out.

Quick google search:

Watch on YouTube

http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/04/30/deandre-jordan-a-big-problem-for-warriors/

So, I'm not here to force Jordan up your throats or anything, I actually think he'll be traded somewhere else that's not Cleveland. But I'm a bit sick of the "Jordan is not useful against the Warriors" hot take. The Clippers haven't played a competitive game against the Warriors in some time, and I don't think a bunch of regular season blowouts where he plays 25 minutes is the best way to judge him.

But he killed the Warriors in that 2014 series, like I haven't seen many people do since. Obviously the Warriors' players have improved a lot since then, and their system is different, but so has Jordan and the Clippers system (which helps a lot making him look worse defending in space). I still think the best way to counter them is killing them in the offensive glass and blitzing the P&R's and rush to recover. Which was the way the Clippers played in that series, and Jordan was key in shutting down Curry, he was awesome trapping him in the perimeter and recovering. He also killed them in the boards, ask any Warriors fan that was following the team back then (not easy to find, I know). He was absolutely key in that series.

Again, the Warriors play differently now, and trapping Curry is not as easy when not only Thompson but Durant are on the weakside, but that series was proof that he can defend the Curry/Draymond P&R. The Clippers just changed their defensive scheme since then, and they make him stay back when defending the P&R, which helps showcase his strengths most of the time, but also highlights his "defending wings" deficiencies more than it used to.

That's not even talking about how much the rest of his strengths could help a team like the Cavaliers. Start spamming Lebron/Jordan pick'n'rolls against them and watch the weakside players have to help Zaza/McGee/West before they get embarrassed lob after lob. Then you have your 3PT shooters open cause Jordan's sucked 2 or 3 man into the paint in a way no current Cavalier can.

Noel and Capela are so much worse defenders than Jordan, taking everything into account, that I'm shocked you even think about them rather than DJ. Noel can defend the perimeter if by defending the perimeter you mean gambling every play and getting it wrong leading to defensive breakdowns 70% of the time. Sure it gives you 2 or 3 highlights every game that are really pretty and make you think of his potential, but you'll be out of the game by the 2nd quarter. I guess people still think of Jordan as the dumb guy who jumps at every pump fake he was 3/4 years ago, but he has become one of the top rim protectors in the game since then. That includes calling the proper P&R coverage when he has to switch, which is a important as having quick feet. I'm pretty sure he'd be so much better than Tristan on both ends against the Warriors.

Oh by the way, Lue was Doc's defensive assistant in that Warriors series, I'm sure he'd remember how to use DJ.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you anything, I wouldn't move the Brooklyn pick or Love if I were the Cavs, and I don't think the Clippers are gonna be interested in anything else. But it irks me when people judge Jordan wrongly, cause it seems pretty much everyone that doesn't watch him on a nightly basis does.

I mean the 2013-14 Warriors was not the same team that's been to the Finals three years in a row. The Clippers have played the Warriors enough since then for DAJ to show he's a net plus against them.

[nzahir]

I cannot believe the love for TT on here. TT for Deandre Jordan is a trade you make all day, every day, and twice on Sunday. Cavs desperately need a shot blocker and defensive presence in the middle. TT is horrible, offensively and defensively. Not to mention he is over paid by about $10 million a year. I guess some people forgot the last two finals when he got owned by Bogut and Pachulia. TT and Shumpert for Jordan will do. To get rid of TT and Shumps contracts would be a blessing for the Cavs.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Here's my response - outside of the first round, when has DeAndre Jordan ever showed up big in a playoff series for the Clippers? What has Gasol done against the Warriors?

Frankly, I think guys like Noel & Capela who can protect the rim, and switch out to guard Durant on the perimeter, are far more valuable against the Warriors. If everyone is going to be singularly focused on the Warriors, at least show me a big man they haven't figured out.

Quick google search:

Watch on YouTube

http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/04/30/deandre-jordan-a-big-problem-for-warriors/

So, I'm not here to force Jordan up your throats or anything, I actually think he'll be traded somewhere else that's not Cleveland. But I'm a bit sick of the "Jordan is not useful against the Warriors" hot take. The Clippers haven't played a competitive game against the Warriors in some time, and I don't think a bunch of regular season blowouts where he plays 25 minutes is the best way to judge him.

But he killed the Warriors in that 2014 series, like I haven't seen many people do since. Obviously the Warriors' players have improved a lot since then, and their system is different, but so has Jordan and the Clippers system (which helps a lot making him look worse defending in space). I still think the best way to counter them is killing them in the offensive glass and blitzing the P&R's and rush to recover. Which was the way the Clippers played in that series, and Jordan was key in shutting down Curry, he was awesome trapping him in the perimeter and recovering. He also killed them in the boards, ask any Warriors fan that was following the team back then (not easy to find, I know). He was absolutely key in that series.

Again, the Warriors play differently now, and trapping Curry is not as easy when not only Thompson but Durant are on the weakside, but that series was proof that he can defend the Curry/Draymond P&R. The Clippers just changed their defensive scheme since then, and they make him stay back when defending the P&R, which helps showcase his strengths most of the time, but also highlights his "defending wings" deficiencies more than it used to.

That's not even talking about how much the rest of his strengths could help a team like the Cavaliers. Start spamming Lebron/Jordan pick'n'rolls against them and watch the weakside players have to help Zaza/McGee/West before they get embarrassed lob after lob. Then you have your 3PT shooters open cause Jordan's sucked 2 or 3 man into the paint in a way no current Cavalier can.

Noel and Capela are so much worse defenders than Jordan, taking everything into account, that I'm shocked you even think about them rather than DJ. Noel can defend the perimeter if by defending the perimeter you mean gambling every play and getting it wrong leading to defensive breakdowns 70% of the time. Sure it gives you 2 or 3 highlights every game that are really pretty and make you think of his potential, but you'll be out of the game by the 2nd quarter. I guess people still think of Jordan as the dumb guy who jumps at every pump fake he was 3/4 years ago, but he has become one of the top rim protectors in the game since then. That includes calling the proper P&R coverage when he has to switch, which is a important as having quick feet. I'm pretty sure he'd be so much better than Tristan on both ends against the Warriors.

Oh by the way, Lue was Doc's defensive assistant in that Warriors series, I'm sure he'd remember how to use DJ.

Again, I'm not trying to sell you anything, I wouldn't move the Brooklyn pick or Love if I were the Cavs, and I don't think the Clippers are gonna be interested in anything else. But it irks me when people judge Jordan wrongly, cause it seems pretty much everyone that doesn't watch him on a nightly basis does.

Try to not be biased, numbers would help too, how does DJ do when switching on guards and wings? I truthfully do not watch enough of him to know

[Stillwater]

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6972985
I find it significantly unlikely we would part with both of these players for DJ, but given they are both hurt for a little while, if they really want DJ and are willing to part with the Cavs own 2018 1st or a future 1st, I think LAC would take it,as all 3 are overpaid players and yet all 3 are impactful starter level players. They have to give us Thornwell to cover the loss of Shumpert as well.

[QRich3]

Try to not be biased, numbers would help too, how does DJ do when switching on guards and wings? I truthfully do not watch enough of him to know

Well it's obviously not his main strength, that much should be obvious, but he does it every night still, and the results are decent for the most part. His feet are quick enough, but he's very indecisive in closing out and ends up leaving too much space for shooters to just shoot over him. Which is the classic rim protector problem, Hibbert and Howard used to get a lot of crap for this too.

Not easy to find numbers for this stuff, Synergy has numbers for guys defending the P&R ball handler, but they have Jordan defending just 11 of those possessions last year and 7 the year before, so it's obviously not logging the kind of plays you're looking for here. I guess they log those switches as isolations, and if that's the case, Jordan held opponents to 0.75 PPP last season, good enough for being in the 79th percentile in the league. For comparison, Tristan held them to 0.82 PPP, and he's in the 68th percentile. The year before that had Tristan in the 73th percentile, a hair over Jordan in the 72th. This probably includes not only switches against little guys but also isolations in the post, so Jordan's numbers probably compensate a little by being better at that. But the main takeaway is there's not a significant difference between the both of them there.

In general, the Clippers have had a switchy defense (excessively so in most Clippers fans opinions) for the last couple of years, and they've had the 6th and the 13th best defense in those two years, with him being the main piece of that defense. So he can do it, it's just that he's best suited to play in a more conservative defensive scheme. Just like every big rim protector is, like Gobert, Whiteside or Howard are, for instance. They do add so much more in other defensive areas though, not every play is a switch followed by an isolation, and rim protectors have been essential to most good defenses since forever for a reason.

The Warriors do attack defensive weaknesses like no other team, but trust me, if Love and Thomas are on the court, Jordan's switching ability would not be the weakness they're gonna choose to attack. And actually, Jordan could help a lot when they put either of those guys on the spot by coming from the weakside.

To trace a parallel for guys who follow the Cavs, you can choose to focus on Wade's bad 3PT shooting and say the Warriors defense is gonna run him out of the court by packing the paint against him, but then you see him work and he's still a really good offensive player that's gonna give them problems in many other ways. It's silly to focus in one flaw of a player's game when he's helping everywhere else.

I mean the 2013-14 Warriors was not the same team that's been to the Finals three years in a row. The Clippers have played the Warriors enough since then for DAJ to show he's a net plus against them.

Yeah, I already said that on the other post, and why I think that series still shows he can be useful against them today. It's not true that he's not a net plus against the Warriors though, it's one thing that they've got blown out a bunch of times in the regular season, it's a completely different one to suggest he's not a net plus. Many things were at play in those games, mostly the talent disparity at every other position (at the wing particularly). It's silly to focus on him like he's at blame for it. Most people wouldn't avoid getting Chris Paul for the same reason.

[jbk1234]

I'm sure there's an if-you-squint-real-hard-and-turn-your-head-to-the-side argument that DAJ is a net plus against the Warriors. But those types of arguments don't convince me to put the Nets pick on the table. He hasn't demonstrated that he moves the needle against the Warriors in three years.