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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#221 » by JonFromVA » Wed Oct 9, 2019 10:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I have a very difficult time seeing Beilein using the traditional pg and sg roles in his offensive sets and think whatever guards are playing ( probably be 3 of them on most nights this season ) will each mix it up and not be one or the other as a lead ball handler or floor general...he likes to use versatile playmakers and that has to have been a factor in the number 5 selection this season. Not as a obvious replacement to Sexton at the 1.
I would trust Darius in that role a little more than Sexton only because that was his position for years whereas Sexton has been a combo guard pushed into the pg role t Bama and last season etc. but I don't see Beilein using them that way.


I'm not sure it matters ... given sufficient opportunities to handle the ball, I suspect Garland is going to generate more assists because he's better equipped to do it. Heck, Beilein's system may lead to Collin shooting more simply on principle. If he's encouraged to take a 50-50 shot, but not attempt a 50-50 pass ... seems to me that will mean more shots and less passes for Collin on his drives.

I am not so sure I agree he is better though, given Sexton had entire offseason of grinding out drills to improve in that area and to understand where his vets want the ball etc not to mention Darius Garland was never an efficient passer despite seeing the floor well.


Sure, we'll have to let it play out and see what he can do in the NBA; but if he has the skills like a lot of people are saying - It won't take long. Otoh, we've seen Sexton with a full year in both the NCAA and the NBA, and he'll have to make a dramatic improvement to rise up to that combo-guard 5apg level.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#222 » by Stillwater » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I'm not sure it matters ... given sufficient opportunities to handle the ball, I suspect Garland is going to generate more assists because he's better equipped to do it. Heck, Beilein's system may lead to Collin shooting more simply on principle. If he's encouraged to take a 50-50 shot, but not attempt a 50-50 pass ... seems to me that will mean more shots and less passes for Collin on his drives.

I am not so sure I agree he is better though, given Sexton had entire offseason of grinding out drills to improve in that area and to understand where his vets want the ball etc not to mention Darius Garland was never an efficient passer despite seeing the floor well.


Sure, we'll have to let it play out and see what he can do in the NBA; but if he has the skills like a lot of people are saying - It won't take long. Otoh, we've seen Sexton with a full year in both the NCAA and the NBA, and he'll have to make a dramatic improvement to rise up to that combo-guard 5apg level.

what I am seeing is a really good ball handler that can get his own shot , not so much a floor general. we shall see
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#223 » by JonFromVA » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:50 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I am not so sure I agree he is better though, given Sexton had entire offseason of grinding out drills to improve in that area and to understand where his vets want the ball etc not to mention Darius Garland was never an efficient passer despite seeing the floor well.


Sure, we'll have to let it play out and see what he can do in the NBA; but if he has the skills like a lot of people are saying - It won't take long. Otoh, we've seen Sexton with a full year in both the NCAA and the NBA, and he'll have to make a dramatic improvement to rise up to that combo-guard 5apg level.

what I am seeing is a really good ball handler that can get his own shot , not so much a floor general. we shall see


I don't think he'll be asked to be a floor general in Beilein's offense, just a willing passer; and because he sees the floor well, handles well, and navigates the floor well; he should generate more assists.

Collin's assists should go up as well - he's actually going to be coached this season - and there will be things coaches & teammates will point out to him that he will start to see too and exploit. Playing under an actual system, some assists should be all but baked in by just making the correct reads.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#224 » by Stillwater » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:16 am

Sexton looked worse than he actually is capable of playing as a floor general, that was a product of several things some of which was his teammates not keeping pace with him as much as him not making the reads or getting burned by defenses he has never faced before. I think he is already more than capable of handling it if given the chance, but I do not think he will get it not in a trad. sense.
I would not be surprised if there is a significant chance he gets moved if Garland is the real deal esp if there is any legit offers at the deadline despite their claims of using the 2 small guard back court going forward.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#225 » by Revenged25 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:34 pm

Stillwater wrote:Sexton looked worse than he actually is capable of playing as a floor general, that was a product of several things some of which was his teammates not keeping pace with him as much as him not making the reads or getting burned by defenses he has never faced before. I think he is already more than capable of handling it if given the chance, but I do not think he will get it not in a trad. sense.
I would not be surprised if there is a significant chance he gets moved if Garland is the real deal esp if there is any legit offers at the deadline despite their claims of using the 2 small guard back court going forward.


What do you consider a legit offer? I think Sexton's 3pt shooting alone makes very valuable, then you add in his ability to breakdown a defense and lead a fast break, immense work ethic... it would need to be a pretty big offer unless both Garland and KPJ just outplay Sexton completely.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#226 » by Stillwater » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:29 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Sexton looked worse than he actually is capable of playing as a floor general, that was a product of several things some of which was his teammates not keeping pace with him as much as him not making the reads or getting burned by defenses he has never faced before. I think he is already more than capable of handling it if given the chance, but I do not think he will get it not in a trad. sense.
I would not be surprised if there is a significant chance he gets moved if Garland is the real deal esp if there is any legit offers at the deadline despite their claims of using the 2 small guard back court going forward.


What do you consider a legit offer? I think Sexton's 3pt shooting alone makes very valuable, then you add in his ability to breakdown a defense and lead a fast break, immense work ethic... it would need to be a pretty big offer unless both Garland and KPJ just outplay Sexton completely.

Good question. I am guessing something along the lines of these;https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238553
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238554
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238556
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238558

those could make sense if it were at the dl which seems less probable given they will likely take the whole season to know for sure if they want to part with Collin or even if Garland is the better choice to retain.
For the record I hope they keep him and the duo works out, but I have my doubts given at least one of them has to step up as a defender and if Sexton doesn't this year that could be enough for them to move him considering Garland is a rookie , coming off injury and has never been a good defender either.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#227 » by NotACat » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:41 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Sexton looked worse than he actually is capable of playing as a floor general, that was a product of several things some of which was his teammates not keeping pace with him as much as him not making the reads or getting burned by defenses he has never faced before. I think he is already more than capable of handling it if given the chance, but I do not think he will get it not in a trad. sense.
I would not be surprised if there is a significant chance he gets moved if Garland is the real deal esp if there is any legit offers at the deadline despite their claims of using the 2 small guard back court going forward.


What do you consider a legit offer? I think Sexton's 3pt shooting alone makes very valuable, then you add in his ability to breakdown a defense and lead a fast break, immense work ethic... it would need to be a pretty big offer unless both Garland and KPJ just outplay Sexton completely.

Good question. I am guessing something along the lines of these;https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238553
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238554
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238556
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238558

those could make sense if it were at the dl which seems less probable given they will likely take the whole season to know for sure if they want to part with Collin or even if Garland is the better choice to retain.
For the record I hope they keep him and the duo works out, but I have my doubts given at least one of them has to step up as a defender and if Sexton doesn't this year that could be enough for them to move him considering Garland is a rookie , coming off injury and has never been a good defender either.

There's no way Orlando gives up Isaac or Philly gives up Thybulle, especially not for Sexton. I doubt Detroit gives up their rookie as well.

I think Minnesota could be a good partner with Okogie coming in. Then go with Garland-Okogie-KPJ as the backcourt of the future. Dario Saric could be another option to consider as well.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#228 » by Stillwater » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:29 pm

NotACat wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
What do you consider a legit offer? I think Sexton's 3pt shooting alone makes very valuable, then you add in his ability to breakdown a defense and lead a fast break, immense work ethic... it would need to be a pretty big offer unless both Garland and KPJ just outplay Sexton completely.

Good question. I am guessing something along the lines of these;https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238553
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238554
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238556
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238558

those could make sense if it were at the dl which seems less probable given they will likely take the whole season to know for sure if they want to part with Collin or even if Garland is the better choice to retain.
For the record I hope they keep him and the duo works out, but I have my doubts given at least one of them has to step up as a defender and if Sexton doesn't this year that could be enough for them to move him considering Garland is a rookie , coming off injury and has never been a good defender either.

There's no way Orlando gives up Isaac or Philly gives up Thybulle, especially not for Sexton. I doubt Detroit gives up their rookie as well.

I think Minnesota could be a good partner with Okogie coming in. Then go with Garland-Okogie-KPJ as the backcourt of the future. Dario Saric could be another option to consider as well.

no way based on your lack of attention to Sexton last season im betting. :banghead:
i hope they dont move him but they might consider it for a young sf/pf type with upside.
aside from that they will keep him regardless as a high level rotation player.
why would CLE want another okogie? i cant see them valuing that swap at all.
if orlando wants to keep kicking the can on pg's or if Fultz comes to life than sure they wouldnt move the unproven Isaac for any guard, but if Fultz fails they wont get a better offer for Isaac
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#229 » by NotACat » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:51 pm

Stillwater wrote:
NotACat wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Good question. I am guessing something along the lines of these;https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238553
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238554
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238556
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7238558

those could make sense if it were at the dl which seems less probable given they will likely take the whole season to know for sure if they want to part with Collin or even if Garland is the better choice to retain.
For the record I hope they keep him and the duo works out, but I have my doubts given at least one of them has to step up as a defender and if Sexton doesn't this year that could be enough for them to move him considering Garland is a rookie , coming off injury and has never been a good defender either.

There's no way Orlando gives up Isaac or Philly gives up Thybulle, especially not for Sexton. I doubt Detroit gives up their rookie as well.

I think Minnesota could be a good partner with Okogie coming in. Then go with Garland-Okogie-KPJ as the backcourt of the future. Dario Saric could be another option to consider as well.

no way based on your lack of attention to Sexton last season im betting. :banghead:
i hope they dont move him but they might consider it for a young sf/pf type with upside.
aside from that they will keep him regardless as a high level rotation player.
why would CLE want another okogie? i cant see them valuing that swap at all.
if orlando wants to keep kicking the can on pg's or if Fultz comes to life than sure they wouldnt move the unproven Isaac for any guard, but if Fultz fails they wont get a better offer for Isaac

Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#230 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:39 am

NotACat wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
NotACat wrote:There's no way Orlando gives up Isaac or Philly gives up Thybulle, especially not for Sexton. I doubt Detroit gives up their rookie as well.

I think Minnesota could be a good partner with Okogie coming in. Then go with Garland-Okogie-KPJ as the backcourt of the future. Dario Saric could be another option to consider as well.

no way based on your lack of attention to Sexton last season im betting. :banghead:
i hope they dont move him but they might consider it for a young sf/pf type with upside.
aside from that they will keep him regardless as a high level rotation player.
why would CLE want another okogie? i cant see them valuing that swap at all.
if orlando wants to keep kicking the can on pg's or if Fultz comes to life than sure they wouldnt move the unproven Isaac for any guard, but if Fultz fails they wont get a better offer for Isaac

Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#231 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:43 am

Anyway, Love is still the best player on the Cavs. We still struggle to score when he's not on the floor in the 4th quarter. Sexton is still a stubborn youngster. And, both TT and Clarkson are already showing signs of being contract year players on a rebuilding team.

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#232 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:46 am

Also, Nance looked out of shape, which is a a little disappointing if not shocking for the first pre-season game. KPJ played like a rookie, which I'm okay with.

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#233 » by NotACat » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:10 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:
Stillwater wrote:no way based on your lack of attention to Sexton last season im betting. :banghead:
i hope they dont move him but they might consider it for a young sf/pf type with upside.
aside from that they will keep him regardless as a high level rotation player.
why would CLE want another okogie? i cant see them valuing that swap at all.
if orlando wants to keep kicking the can on pg's or if Fultz comes to life than sure they wouldnt move the unproven Isaac for any guard, but if Fultz fails they wont get a better offer for Isaac

Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#234 » by Stillwater » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:38 pm

NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.

i get where you are coming from with your justifications of these players values due to the general lack of solid wing defenders available , but you are seeing Sexton in a pretty negative light if you actually believe which it sounds like, that Sexton wouldnt garner those returns.

i wouldnt trade him at all regardless of if Garland is legit or not, but if you are right and nobody sees Sexton for what he is going forward which is a much better offensive weapon on ball and off ball than any of the players i have coming back in potential swaps, than all those players had breakout seasons.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#235 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:25 pm

NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.
Dude hasn't played a single regular season game in the NBA. He was picked outside of the top 20. Maybe slow your roll with how valuable he is.

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#236 » by Stillwater » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:59 am

NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:Isaac isn't close to being unproven, he was legit in the playoffs and has looked good in the preseason. I think they give Fultz a shot before swinging for someone else.

I believe in Sexton, but other teams who value size (such as Orlando) probably won't even consider him.
Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.

just to pile on against your take; Thybulle was a throw in as he is unproven as just noted above, was not drafted anywhere near the lottery, was probably over picked when you compare his defensive impact was primarily based on playing in a zone defense system which created more defensive ops for him. Granted he is a good defender but that system which as far as I know Philly will not be using made him look better than he is.
Philly taking on a guard like Sexton on the surface might seem unusual but the scoring he can provide for them right away off the bench is far more beneficial in the playoffs than a rookies defense and a 2nd year dunk machine. They would do that trade in a millisecond imo
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#237 » by NotACat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:35 am

jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.
Dude hasn't played a single regular season game in the NBA. He was picked outside of the top 20. Maybe slow your roll with how valuable he is.

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Stillwater wrote:
NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Why is Thybulle even being talked about in the same sentence as these other guys?

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Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.

just to pile on against your take; Thybulle was a throw in as he is unproven as just noted above, was not drafted anywhere near the lottery, was probably over picked when you compare his defensive impact was primarily based on playing in a zone defense system which created more defensive ops for him. Granted he is a good defender but that system which as far as I know Philly will not be using made him look better than he is.
Philly taking on a guard like Sexton on the surface might seem unusual but the scoring he can provide for them right away off the bench is far more beneficial in the playoffs than a rookies defense and a 2nd year dunk machine. They would do that trade in a millisecond imo



He's looked stellar in preseason for them. I know its preseason, but he's a perfect compliment for that team. He wasn't a high pick because his potential is a being a role player
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#238 » by Stillwater » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:50 am

NotACat wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
NotACat wrote:Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.
Dude hasn't played a single regular season game in the NBA. He was picked outside of the top 20. Maybe slow your roll with how valuable he is.

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Stillwater wrote:
NotACat wrote:Thybulle doesn't have the same star potential, but he's a perfect fit for the Sixers since he's a terrific defender, has good size, and can shoot well. That kind of player is more valuable to their roster than Colin Sexton.

just to pile on against your take; Thybulle was a throw in as he is unproven as just noted above, was not drafted anywhere near the lottery, was probably over picked when you compare his defensive impact was primarily based on playing in a zone defense system which created more defensive ops for him. Granted he is a good defender but that system which as far as I know Philly will not be using made him look better than he is.
Philly taking on a guard like Sexton on the surface might seem unusual but the scoring he can provide for them right away off the bench is far more beneficial in the playoffs than a rookies defense and a 2nd year dunk machine. They would do that trade in a millisecond imo



He's looked stellar in preseason for them. I know its preseason, but he's a perfect compliment for that team. He wasn't a high pick because his potential is a being a role player

sexton is already more than a role player so your valuations are off
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#239 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:24 pm

Our team is going to be really bad. The guys we drafted are really raw. I'm not seeing a true back up PF or SF on the roster.

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#240 » by Stillwater » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:03 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Our team is going to be really bad. The guys we drafted are really raw. I'm not seeing a true back up PF or SF on the roster.

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everyone was shooting less than 20% and everyone is chucking em thanks to a college coaches theories on offense and shooting from deep add that Sexton also had a bad shooting outing and Love didnt play ...all on the same nat tv afternoon game and you bench the vets in the second half due to their crap shooting and poor execution defensively. .. its going to be a bad review .
i do see kpj needing more reps defensively than i realized he would and he seems to have developed a hitch in his shot trying to change it.
i think a lot of these kids are trying to fix less than perfect shooting form and tbh its going to be real ugly for awhile for them.
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