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Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

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Revenged25
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#141 » by Revenged25 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:07 pm

Stillwater wrote:
NYG wrote:
Stillwater wrote:That scenario is unlikely to be 100 % reality. I mean those 3 could be considered the top prospects by most orgs or analysts but if thats the case unless CLE made it known they didn't agree with that,then its a given there would be offers to leap frog some teams by more desperate ones...that would be worthy of being considered.
That being said Edwards probably doesnt have enough of a lead in the clubhouse to get the nod over Wiseman's upside for now but id not be shocked to hear Edwards Okongwu or Ball's name called either based on higher floors.
My gut tells me they are seriously considering Ball despite the guard logjam but probably pass with odds hed be a flight risk, might fall in love with Wiseman's upside if he kills it in a private work out but maybe to risky at 1 without one, and probably see the value of Edwards and Okoro about the same only a touch better than Hayes or Vassell but none of them being great fits either so the only real question is how high of a ceiling do they value Okongwu because his floor to defend 4 positions is possibly worth the top pick if they see enough upside.


Let’s say the best offer was 6, 27 and 38

Would Cleveland take that or just draft Ball/Edwards?

From top 2 doubt they'd take the trade but with Wiseman and Edwards gone at 3 they probably take 6 and 27 if they dont like Ball or See much difference in value between any prospects between 3 and 6 and dont get a better offer like okeke and the 12th to 15th wherever it is/future 2nd from Orlando


I would probably prefer a lotto protected 1st/2 2nds in 2022 instead of #38 to be honest. 3 more rookies this year would be too much after bringing in 3 last year as well. At #6 I think we could still get someone the Cavs would likely be high on in Deni Avdija and then at #27 they can get a PF/C like Jalen Smith or Isaiah Stewart. Though I would be hard pressed to pass on Wiseman if he was there personally.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#142 » by Stillwater » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:12 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
NYG wrote:
Let’s say the best offer was 6, 27 and 38

Would Cleveland take that or just draft Ball/Edwards?

From top 2 doubt they'd take the trade but with Wiseman and Edwards gone at 3 they probably take 6 and 27 if they dont like Ball or See much difference in value between any prospects between 3 and 6 and dont get a better offer like okeke and the 12th to 15th wherever it is/future 2nd from Orlando


I would probably prefer a lotto protected 1st/2 2nds in 2022 instead of #38 to be honest. 3 more rookies this year would be too much after bringing in 3 last year as well. At #6 I think we could still get someone the Cavs would likely be high on in Deni Avdija and then at #27 they can get a PF/C like Jalen Smith or Isaiah Stewart. Though I would be hard pressed to pass on Wiseman if he was there personally.

Doubtful Stewart or Smith are there at 27 just saying... I also dont buy Deni being a top 6 prospect let alone CLE having him ranked ahead of Okoro Edwards Vassell Toppin etc and its highly unlikely all are gone at 6 with Okongwu, Wiseman,Ball,Hayes,Cole, Haliburton and probably some more proven role player/starter potential like Nesmith or even Tillman are considered better prospects.
I dont think CLE will pass on who they want if sitting there for a late first in a weak draft
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#143 » by Revenged25 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 6:43 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:From top 2 doubt they'd take the trade but with Wiseman and Edwards gone at 3 they probably take 6 and 27 if they dont like Ball or See much difference in value between any prospects between 3 and 6 and dont get a better offer like okeke and the 12th to 15th wherever it is/future 2nd from Orlando


I would probably prefer a lotto protected 1st/2 2nds in 2022 instead of #38 to be honest. 3 more rookies this year would be too much after bringing in 3 last year as well. At #6 I think we could still get someone the Cavs would likely be high on in Deni Avdija and then at #27 they can get a PF/C like Jalen Smith or Isaiah Stewart. Though I would be hard pressed to pass on Wiseman if he was there personally.

Doubtful Stewart or Smith are there at 27 just saying... I also dont buy Deni being a top 6 prospect let alone CLE having him ranked ahead of Okoro Edwards Vassell Toppin etc and its highly unlikely all are gone at 6 with Okongwu, Wiseman,Ball,Hayes,Cole, Haliburton and probably some more proven role player/starter potential like Nesmith or even Tillman are considered better prospects.
I dont think CLE will pass on who they want if sitting there for a late first in a weak draft


Considering most of those players are guards I'd be very surprised if they drafted one of them unless they are straight up getting rid of Sexton, Garland, or KPJ. We've got too many as it is and unless they feel that player is just a transcendent player, which I don't think anyone would think so, I thin they'd be more prone to looking elsewhere. Also we don't know how they have Deni rated, you obviously dislike him as we've had this discussion multiple times, but it sounds like a lot of other people are pretty high on him, including our own FO who made several trips to watch him play in person.

Also most mock drafts have at least one of Smith/Stewart still around at that pick, obviously those aren't a guarantee but it gives an idea of what might happen, but it's not like the Cavs aren't afraid to try to move up for players they like either so they could move up from #27 to secure on of those fairly cheaply once they drop to about 16-20 range.

As I said though, I think it would be hard to pass on Wiseman if he's there, I just don't see how any of the other players fit this team unless they have a trade/plan to move one of our numerous other guards. I'll pretty much give you that the Cavs are likely looking at 4 players at the top of the draft in Wiseman, Toppin, Okongwu, and Avdija and one of those will end up being the pick. I don't think any of the guards are really in considering the glut of young players we have already unless someone was on the move.

For example maybe Phoenix decides to trade the #10 pick for Sexton, then I could see the guards become a legit option, but outside of that I can't see us picking another guard with the top pick again.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#144 » by Stillwater » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:36 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I would probably prefer a lotto protected 1st/2 2nds in 2022 instead of #38 to be honest. 3 more rookies this year would be too much after bringing in 3 last year as well. At #6 I think we could still get someone the Cavs would likely be high on in Deni Avdija and then at #27 they can get a PF/C like Jalen Smith or Isaiah Stewart. Though I would be hard pressed to pass on Wiseman if he was there personally.

Doubtful Stewart or Smith are there at 27 just saying... I also dont buy Deni being a top 6 prospect let alone CLE having him ranked ahead of Okoro Edwards Vassell Toppin etc and its highly unlikely all are gone at 6 with Okongwu, Wiseman,Ball,Hayes,Cole, Haliburton and probably some more proven role player/starter potential like Nesmith or even Tillman are considered better prospects.
I dont think CLE will pass on who they want if sitting there for a late first in a weak draft


Considering most of those players are guards I'd be very surprised if they drafted one of them unless they are straight up getting rid of Sexton, Garland, or KPJ. We've got too many as it is and unless they feel that player is just a transcendent player, which I don't think anyone would think so, I thin they'd be more prone to looking elsewhere. Also we don't know how they have Deni rated, you obviously dislike him as we've had this discussion multiple times, but it sounds like a lot of other people are pretty high on him, including our own FO who made several trips to watch him play in person.

Also most mock drafts have at least one of Smith/Stewart still around at that pick, obviously those aren't a guarantee but it gives an idea of what might happen, but it's not like the Cavs aren't afraid to try to move up for players they like either so they could move up from #27 to secure on of those fairly cheaply once they drop to about 16-20 range.

As I said though, I think it would be hard to pass on Wiseman if he's there, I just don't see how any of the other players fit this team unless they have a trade/plan to move one of our numerous other guards. I'll pretty much give you that the Cavs are likely looking at 4 players at the top of the draft in Wiseman, Toppin, Okongwu, and Avdija and one of those will end up being the pick. I don't think any of the guards are really in considering the glut of young players we have already unless someone was on the move.

For example maybe Phoenix decides to trade the #10 pick for Sexton, then I could see the guards become a legit option, but outside of that I can't see us picking another guard with the top pick again.

fyi all lottery projected teams had interest in Deni key word being had... in weaker leagues he scored a lot compared to this more recent league but the bottom line is his shooting is not just a wip it is flat out bad to the point you cannot justify overpicking him for point forward and potential as a defender in the top 6. He has not shown enough to justify it even if you think because he would fill a greater need as a decent mobile 3-4 type that can pass and score in transition he isn't going to creat off the dribble for himself and will probably have to play the 4 which I am not sold he can muster defensively. Overall I think you are only going to see this org trade down if these things happen:
1 . they are not in the top 5 where 1 of Okongwu( an elite floor defender with offensive skill as a 4 and a 5),Wiseman( a raw boom bust type but elite measureables prospect aka dpoy potential if developed),Okoro(can defend 1-4 and is a high level slasher from the perimeter),Edwards( expected to play the 3 with his slashing ability despite shooting like an off guard),
Vassell( projects to be a 2-3 swingman but can easily defend the majority of 3's and yes he would be interchangeable with KPJ both on the court 2 or 3 spot defensively with Sexton or Garland at the point). are all gone sitting at 6th...
2. they somehow are so in love with Garland in that unlikely scenario above with no high ceiling guards taken at 6th that they would pass on drafting one of Hayes or Ball or Halliburton there .
3 . They dont like Toppin .
4. and maybe the most important reason they would trade down: they are offerred a better fit than any prospect available from last years draft along with a late lottery pick this year such as Okeke from Orlando and say a pick in the 12-15 range depending on where they end up whenever the season resumes...where the Cavs might have a shot at getting a decent big like Otruro if Stewart and Smith are taken or grab a defensive capable guard at 15 to pressure the current guard core
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/690307/
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#145 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:06 pm

It really sucks to be a big man these days ... Dwight Howard didn't even play 3 games in the NCAA and went #1 straight out of high-school.

19 year old 7-footers don't typically know what they're doing on the floor besides being able to dunk the ball and swat some shots.

Would had been nice if he played a full season in the NCAA and we got a chance to see his growth, but sometimes you have to pick them on potential.

My thought when we traded for Drummond was that we were either trading for a player that might be similar to Wiseman in 7 years or getting a preview of how our team would look with a big C.

Maybe he's "the guy" in this draft, but since he can't coast by on his HS highlights in this day and age, people won't jump on his bandwagon; but if not him - it's likely there will be some players worthy of being the top pick. The trick is figuring out who, when nobody is standing out like Zion let alone Luka.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#146 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:It really sucks to be a big man these days ... Dwight Howard didn't even play 3 games in the NCAA and went #1 straight out of high-school.

19 year old 7-footers don't typically know what they're doing on the floor besides being able to dunk the ball and swat some shots.

Would had been nice if he played a full season in the NCAA and we got a chance to see his growth, but sometimes you have to pick them on potential.

My thought when we traded for Drummond was that we were either trading for a player that might be similar to Wiseman in 7 years or getting a preview of how our team would look with a big C.

Maybe he's "the guy" in this draft, but since he can't coast by on his HS highlights in this day and age, people won't jump on his bandwagon; but if not him - it's likely there will be some players worthy of being the top pick. The trick is figuring out who, when nobody is standing out like Zion let alone Luka.

depends on a lot of things imo but I am inclined to think CLE passes on Wiseman after the flop they made taking Garland with such a small window of opportunity for scouting besides HS. WIseman has tons of upside but his floor is really not high enough to take over one of the premier guard/forwards or the much higher floor and one who has a strong probability of reaching his moderately high ceiling in Okongwu.
safest picks are Okongwu and Edwards and the risky ones are Ball and Wiseman. but I think these are their top 4 prospect choices.
then the 5 and 6th pick choices are Okoro,Hayes or Vassell with a slight chance they would be looking a different direction like Toppin.
If they are looking at anyone else in the top 6 like Avdija or Cole Anthony we are in for another long season of bad fit basketball in the name of over optimistic scouting departments thinking winning is possible without defense.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#147 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:46 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:It really sucks to be a big man these days ... Dwight Howard didn't even play 3 games in the NCAA and went #1 straight out of high-school.

19 year old 7-footers don't typically know what they're doing on the floor besides being able to dunk the ball and swat some shots.

Would had been nice if he played a full season in the NCAA and we got a chance to see his growth, but sometimes you have to pick them on potential.

My thought when we traded for Drummond was that we were either trading for a player that might be similar to Wiseman in 7 years or getting a preview of how our team would look with a big C.

Maybe he's "the guy" in this draft, but since he can't coast by on his HS highlights in this day and age, people won't jump on his bandwagon; but if not him - it's likely there will be some players worthy of being the top pick. The trick is figuring out who, when nobody is standing out like Zion let alone Luka.

depends on a lot of things imo but I am inclined to think CLE passes on Wiseman after the flop they made taking Garland with such a small window of opportunity for scouting besides HS. WIseman has tons of upside but his floor is really not high enough to take over one of the premier guard/forwards or the much higher floor and one who has a strong probability of reaching his moderately high ceiling in Okongwu.
safest picks are Okongwu and Edwards and the risky ones are Ball and Wiseman. but I think these are their top 4 prospect choices.
then the 5 and 6th pick choices are Okoro,Hayes or Vassell with a slight chance they would be looking a different direction like Toppin.
If they are looking at anyone else in the top 6 like Avdija or Cole Anthony we are in for another long season of bad fit basketball in the name of over optimistic scouting departments thinking winning is possible without defense.


It does sound like the front-office wants a multi-skilled player who knows how to play basketball rather than a project they will have to teach; but good luck sticking to that if Dan Gilbert falls in love with a high-upside prospect. I mean, they certainly understand now they should have taken Oladipo (or literally almost anyone) over Bennett, but without solid talent evaluation and projection it's a crap shoot.

Too bad the draft is so far away, otherwise I might be getting psyched up enough about it to watch some breakdown videos.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#148 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:30 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:It really sucks to be a big man these days ... Dwight Howard didn't even play 3 games in the NCAA and went #1 straight out of high-school.

19 year old 7-footers don't typically know what they're doing on the floor besides being able to dunk the ball and swat some shots.

Would had been nice if he played a full season in the NCAA and we got a chance to see his growth, but sometimes you have to pick them on potential.

My thought when we traded for Drummond was that we were either trading for a player that might be similar to Wiseman in 7 years or getting a preview of how our team would look with a big C.

Maybe he's "the guy" in this draft, but since he can't coast by on his HS highlights in this day and age, people won't jump on his bandwagon; but if not him - it's likely there will be some players worthy of being the top pick. The trick is figuring out who, when nobody is standing out like Zion let alone Luka.

depends on a lot of things imo but I am inclined to think CLE passes on Wiseman after the flop they made taking Garland with such a small window of opportunity for scouting besides HS. WIseman has tons of upside but his floor is really not high enough to take over one of the premier guard/forwards or the much higher floor and one who has a strong probability of reaching his moderately high ceiling in Okongwu.
safest picks are Okongwu and Edwards and the risky ones are Ball and Wiseman. but I think these are their top 4 prospect choices.
then the 5 and 6th pick choices are Okoro,Hayes or Vassell with a slight chance they would be looking a different direction like Toppin.
If they are looking at anyone else in the top 6 like Avdija or Cole Anthony we are in for another long season of bad fit basketball in the name of over optimistic scouting departments thinking winning is possible without defense.


It does sound like the front-office wants a multi-skilled player who knows how to play basketball rather than a project they will have to teach; but good luck sticking to that if Dan Gilbert falls in love with a high-upside prospect. I mean, they certainly understand now they should have taken Oladipo (or literally almost anyone) over Bennett, but without solid talent evaluation and projection it's a crap shoot.

Too bad the draft is so far away, otherwise I might be getting psyched up enough about it to watch some breakdown videos.

Yeah I mean I actually am more confident they will the pick the right player this year given they dont have the opportunity to overvalue somebody coming off a tournament run or overvalue a injured guard in a 1 on none workout /However I am not sure they know who the right prospect is either so there is that.
The way I see it Okongwu although not your typical 1 overall level prospect has shown enough clues to his BBIQ to consider his upside very attainable which would be a big that even if he never develops a solid face up game to add to his current touch around the basket has all star caliber ability to read plays at a high level and is proven athletically via speed and explosiveness that he can easily defend multiple positions including athletic guards.Finish plays easily above the rim and fit in very nicely with KLove day 1
The other prospects have variable potential depending on development but few have the same ceiling and floor other than maybe Edwards if he can become more consistant as a shooter.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#149 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:55 am

Maybe the Cavs will attempt to trade their pick down like they wanted to do in the Bennett draft...
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#150 » by Revenged25 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:24 am

JonFromVA wrote:Maybe the Cavs will attempt to trade their pick down like they wanted to do in the Bennett draft...


At least in this draft there are perceived high caliber players, though flawed. I mean the "best" players at the time of the draft were what Oladipo who had no offensive game and Nerlens Noel who had a really nasty ACL tear. At least in this draft someone might fall in love with Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, etc and want to trade up.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#151 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:32 am

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Maybe the Cavs will attempt to trade their pick down like they wanted to do in the Bennett draft...


At least in this draft there are perceived high caliber players, though flawed. I mean the "best" players at the time of the draft were what Oladipo who had no offensive game and Nerlens Noel who had a really nasty ACL tear. At least in this draft someone might fall in love with Edwards, Ball, Wiseman, etc and want to trade up.


They would seem to have a better shot in this draft but it depends what they ask. Fans hate trade-downs so they'd need to get someone good who fills a need and wont walk or mess up our cap. Lots of constraints.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#152 » by Stillwater » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:36 am

With draft not for another 120 days more or less
I expect orgs are figuring to get a better scope on things and maybe have gotten medical information and face time but i doubt most targets of CLE would participate in any combine if the nba manages to put together a 2 day low invite numbers version. If all they have to go on is film with no private workout for their top targets "now" I'm guessing it would be pretty easy to see them overdraft a kid who's agent was pushing for interviews with all teams top 6 because they are projects like McDaniels or something else is keeping stock low. Intead of taking the actual highest ceiling prospect esp one like Ball or Wiseman neither of whom probably plan to do interviews for all teams but just whoever is at #1, and probably GSW, NY or maybe Chicago. Most of these kids are projects in some way with a lot less proven options.sp regardless of hype and hs or intl film study...
Grabbing Okongwu at 1 is for example is not the popular choice but probably the smartest.Hell even Vassell at 1 is not unreasonable if they have nothing to go beyond what they have right now.
I am starting to think trading down might not be a reasonable option should the predraft process not get normal real soon where there is more separation between prospects.
I mean if you find out Vassell and Okoro are really 6'4" barefoot and lack elite length or you find out that Wiseman only has a 22" standing vert or Avdija has a core muscle condition etc etc you have a lot more value at 1 or 2 than you did before those extreme examples/
but even simple ones like Hayes having terrible knees or Halliburton having a bad foot or on the positive side Okongwu and Cole Anthony haveing 40" max verts or Stewart being faster than most guards etc etc.
Combine and predraft process normality would create better trade down situation values.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#153 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:09 am

Kind of doubt the signing of Jordan Bell and the converting of Wades deal from a 2w type to a regular contract will have a major impact on the draft process since they are losing TT anyway so they'll have Dre Love Nance Wade and Bell can float around at both forward spots defensively or play some center if they go small.
However it does imply to some degree they could be looking at the top 6 more focussed on wings and true point guards.
Maybe not interested in Wiseman or Okongwu at all, but seems foolish if that is the case.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#154 » by JonFromVA » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:50 pm

Stillwater wrote:Kind of doubt the signing of Jordan Bell and the converting of Wades deal from a 2w type to a regular contract will have a major impact on the draft process since they are losing TT anyway so they'll have Dre Love Nance Wade and Bell can float around at both forward spots defensively or play some center if they go small.
However it does imply to some degree they could be looking at the top 6 more focussed on wings and true point guards.
Maybe not interested in Wiseman or Okongwu at all, but seems foolish if that is the case.


Yeah, end of bench signings aren't really strategic ... the team's just taking an educated bet, sometimes making an agent happy, and typically risking very little (cut them anytime), and have a couple of players to soak up minutes in Summer games and pre-season and not cause problems if they're asked to ride the pine.

That being said, I'm hoping we give Dean Wade a decent look. I'm not sure why we buried him in Canton as much as we did, but that's often contract related.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#155 » by Stillwater » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:56 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Kind of doubt the signing of Jordan Bell and the converting of Wades deal from a 2w type to a regular contract will have a major impact on the draft process since they are losing TT anyway so they'll have Dre Love Nance Wade and Bell can float around at both forward spots defensively or play some center if they go small.
However it does imply to some degree they could be looking at the top 6 more focussed on wings and true point guards.
Maybe not interested in Wiseman or Okongwu at all, but seems foolish if that is the case.


Yeah, end of bench signings aren't really strategic ... the team's just taking an educated bet, sometimes making an agent happy, and typically risking very little (cut them anytime), and have a couple of players to soak up minutes in Summer games and pre-season and not cause problems if they're asked to ride the pine.

That being said, I'm hoping we give Dean Wade a decent look. I'm not sure why we buried him in Canton as much as we did, but that's often contract related.

I guess Bells deal is non gauranteed... so yeah.
Wade was always a sleeper in college imo but his injury history ruined his stock.
He could definitely be more than just a back up if the trajectory he seems on is sustainable. better athlete than I realized.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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