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2021-22 regular season thread

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#821 » by jbk1234 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:18 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I would say he would, not sure about jbk.


If he's playing like a starter I don't see a problem paying him like one ... so is he more Ginobli or Clarkson? I suppose jbk is implying the latter.


I think he's more Ginobli, though I agree with you that jbk think he's closer to Clarkson.
Seeing how he has none of Ginobili's skills, you'd be correct.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#822 » by toooskies » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:56 pm

Zach Lowe mentioned Sexton in comparison to Jason Terry in a recent article and that's probably reasonable.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#823 » by gflem » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:41 pm

toooskies wrote:Zach Lowe mentioned Sexton in comparison to Jason Terry in a recent article and that's probably reasonable.

Seems a good comp, though Terry was a more willing 3pt shooter. And a sixth man. A Rubio/Sexton/Love second unit should be able to score a bit if that's how it goes.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#824 » by JonFromVA » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:06 pm

toooskies wrote:Zach Lowe mentioned Sexton in comparison to Jason Terry in a recent article and that's probably reasonable.


What I'm coming to the conclusion is that there's just not a lot of good comparables for Garland or Sexton *if* (like I do) you insist on factoring in age.

After just 2 or 3 seasons everyone wants to lock in their ceiling based on what they see nowy, but they keep comparing them to players like Jason Terry who spent 4 years at Arizona, was a rookie at 22, and averaged 8 & 4 for Atlanta. Later known in his carer as primarily as a 3pt shooter, he shot just 29.3% as a rook. He was a full time starter up until the age of 30 and a pretty dynamic scorer early in his career before settling in to that 3pt gunner role.

So, there's some similarities, but I think it's all predicated on Collin being nearly a finished product without any consideration for what it's like trying to score/create when defenses are packing the paint night after night because your team lacks shooters/floor spacing.

I mean, the consensus GOAT was 27 years old in his 7th season as a pro when his coach finally convinced him to stop trying to score 1v3 in key moments and realize that the defense had to be leaving a teammate wide open.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#825 » by toooskies » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:19 pm

As long as we're making ridiculous comparisons, aside from the impact stats Sexton is just a few assists away from looking like Derrick Rose's early career. Suffice it to say that the context matters.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#826 » by Revenged25 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:34 pm

toooskies wrote:As long as we're making ridiculous comparisons, aside from the impact stats Sexton is just a few assists away from looking like Derrick Rose's early career. Suffice it to say that the context matters.


I mean I've said that if Sexton could find a system where he could play in a role similar to pre-injury Derrick Rose he'd excel. Granted he's not as good as Rose so it'll be a lesser version, but they play very similar IMO.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#827 » by LivingLegend » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:33 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
toooskies wrote:As long as we're making ridiculous comparisons, aside from the impact stats Sexton is just a few assists away from looking like Derrick Rose's early career. Suffice it to say that the context matters.


I mean I've said that if Sexton could find a system where he could play in a role similar to pre-injury Derrick Rose he'd excel. Granted he's not as good as Rose so it'll be a lesser version, but they play very similar IMO.


Heres the thing though. Pre- Injury Derek rose was a top 5 player in the NBA and a MVP who took his team multiple rounds into the playoffs. Sexton has led the Cavs to the worst record in the NBA over a 3 year time period.

I understand they are both PGs who are a bit uncomfortable shooting, but Roses dynamic ability in the open court/transition combined with his ability to finish at an elite level driving the ball to the rim from any angle is quite literally 10x+ better than Sextons.

Sexton is in his 4th year and still leads the NBA in 'getting blocked' at the rim because he is not at all the dynamic finisher Rose was.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#828 » by JonFromVA » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:29 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
toooskies wrote:As long as we're making ridiculous comparisons, aside from the impact stats Sexton is just a few assists away from looking like Derrick Rose's early career. Suffice it to say that the context matters.


I mean I've said that if Sexton could find a system where he could play in a role similar to pre-injury Derrick Rose he'd excel. Granted he's not as good as Rose so it'll be a lesser version, but they play very similar IMO.


Heres the thing though. Pre- Injury Derek rose was a top 5 player in the NBA and a MVP who took his team multiple rounds into the playoffs. Sexton has led the Cavs to the worst record in the NBA over a 3 year time period.

I understand they are both PGs who are a bit uncomfortable shooting, but Roses dynamic ability in the open court/transition combined with his ability to finish at an elite level driving the ball to the rim from any angle is quite literally 10x+ better than Sextons.

Sexton is in his 4th year and still leads the NBA in 'getting blocked' at the rim because he is not at all the dynamic finisher Rose was.


Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#829 » by Revenged25 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:54 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
I mean I've said that if Sexton could find a system where he could play in a role similar to pre-injury Derrick Rose he'd excel. Granted he's not as good as Rose so it'll be a lesser version, but they play very similar IMO.


Heres the thing though. Pre- Injury Derek rose was a top 5 player in the NBA and a MVP who took his team multiple rounds into the playoffs. Sexton has led the Cavs to the worst record in the NBA over a 3 year time period.

I understand they are both PGs who are a bit uncomfortable shooting, but Roses dynamic ability in the open court/transition combined with his ability to finish at an elite level driving the ball to the rim from any angle is quite literally 10x+ better than Sextons.

Sexton is in his 4th year and still leads the NBA in 'getting blocked' at the rim because he is not at all the dynamic finisher Rose was.


Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500


Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#830 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:21 am

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Heres the thing though. Pre- Injury Derek rose was a top 5 player in the NBA and a MVP who took his team multiple rounds into the playoffs. Sexton has led the Cavs to the worst record in the NBA over a 3 year time period.

I understand they are both PGs who are a bit uncomfortable shooting, but Roses dynamic ability in the open court/transition combined with his ability to finish at an elite level driving the ball to the rim from any angle is quite literally 10x+ better than Sextons.

Sexton is in his 4th year and still leads the NBA in 'getting blocked' at the rim because he is not at all the dynamic finisher Rose was.


Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500


Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.
What much pieces? Go look at Butler's shooting numbers his first couple years. Deng was always a bad shooter. I know we're not talking about Noah or Taj Gibson. There's a reason they were an early out in the post season.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#831 » by JonFromVA » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500


Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.
What much pieces? Go look at Butler's shooting numbers his first couple years. Deng was always a bad shooter. I know we're not talking about Noah or Taj Gibson. There's a reason they were an early out in the post season.


Deng had some ok seasons shooting the 3pt, Hinrich was good then they had Korver ... plus a bunch of pieces shifting in and out like Salmons, Bogans, Watson, Lucas III, etc. Not a great situation for spacing either (which was more often the case back then), but Noah was like another PG on the floor, Loozer had the sort of mid-range games most teams felt provided adequate spacing, and Rose wasn't asked to play with G-Leaguers and 19 year old rookies.

I'm not advancing the case that Sexton could be Rose-light given the right circumstances (I'll leave that to Revenged), but I think there's some potential that had a few teams interested in trading for him. If it was more than potential, though, they should have made a lot stronger offer because Sexton's pending free-agency shouldn't be a factor if they were willing to max extend him.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#832 » by LivingLegend » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:02 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Heres the thing though. Pre- Injury Derek rose was a top 5 player in the NBA and a MVP who took his team multiple rounds into the playoffs. Sexton has led the Cavs to the worst record in the NBA over a 3 year time period.

I understand they are both PGs who are a bit uncomfortable shooting, but Roses dynamic ability in the open court/transition combined with his ability to finish at an elite level driving the ball to the rim from any angle is quite literally 10x+ better than Sextons.

Sexton is in his 4th year and still leads the NBA in 'getting blocked' at the rim because he is not at all the dynamic finisher Rose was.


Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500


Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.


I think thats my biggest gripe with Sexton is that he still doesnt have that feel for the game about when to do this, or where to do that. Everything just feels forced with him and I guess thats where my belief that he still overthinks on the court and doesnt play fluid at all comes from.

The amount of times he gets blocked at this rim still tells me all that I need to know about his 'BBIQ' or 'feel' for the game. He just never seems to be 1 step ahead of the defense. If he cant show that level of improvement this year I truly think it is the difference in paying him 120M as a longterm starter and 90M as a borderline starter that can be traded.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#833 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:16 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Rose had more to work with, but it's also about instincts ... if a player can read the defense, they will know ahead of time what they can get away with and if they know their opponents tendencies they will know what to expect and can make the right finish.

Both Collin and Darius could use some more finishing techniques so they don't have to go with the floater as often. Garland has been working on it. Collin should be too. But spacing is important as well.

When the Cavs focused on stopping Rose in the playoffs in 2010, we beat the Bulls 4-1 and held his TS% under 0.500


Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.


I think thats my biggest gripe with Sexton is that he still doesnt have that feel for the game about when to do this, or where to do that. Everything just feels forced with him and I guess thats where my belief that he still overthinks on the court and doesnt play fluid at all comes from.

The amount of times he gets blocked at this rim still tells me all that I need to know about his 'BBIQ' or 'feel' for the game. He just never seems to be 1 step ahead of the defense. If he cant show that level of improvement this year I truly think it is the difference in paying him 120M as a longterm starter and 90M as a borderline starter that can be traded.
I think he's a pure scorer, he has a very strong scorer's instinct, and he's a very instinctive player. There are little things he could do to make his game more well rounded, but he primarily relies on his speed to get by his defender and he's so fast that he commits pretty early on in the play. All of that has value. He has a role. But you don't build *around* that player. He accepts the role that's best for the team, or not.



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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#834 » by JonFromVA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:16 am

jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Exactly this. Rose had so much better pieces to build around, not players meant to accentuate a specific player's strengths, not to mention Rose has a better feel for the game which is why Collin would be a Rose-lite version.


I think thats my biggest gripe with Sexton is that he still doesnt have that feel for the game about when to do this, or where to do that. Everything just feels forced with him and I guess thats where my belief that he still overthinks on the court and doesnt play fluid at all comes from.

The amount of times he gets blocked at this rim still tells me all that I need to know about his 'BBIQ' or 'feel' for the game. He just never seems to be 1 step ahead of the defense. If he cant show that level of improvement this year I truly think it is the difference in paying him 120M as a longterm starter and 90M as a borderline starter that can be traded.
I think he's a pure scorer, he has a very strong scorer's instinct, and he's a very instinctive player. There are little things he could do to make his game more well rounded, but he primarily relies on his speed to get by his defender and he's so fast that he commits pretty early on in the play. All of that has value. He has a role. But you don't build *around* that player. He accepts the role that's best for the team, or not.


Unless of course he grows ...
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#835 » by LivingLegend » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:07 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I think thats my biggest gripe with Sexton is that he still doesnt have that feel for the game about when to do this, or where to do that. Everything just feels forced with him and I guess thats where my belief that he still overthinks on the court and doesnt play fluid at all comes from.

The amount of times he gets blocked at this rim still tells me all that I need to know about his 'BBIQ' or 'feel' for the game. He just never seems to be 1 step ahead of the defense. If he cant show that level of improvement this year I truly think it is the difference in paying him 120M as a longterm starter and 90M as a borderline starter that can be traded.
I think he's a pure scorer, he has a very strong scorer's instinct, and he's a very instinctive player. There are little things he could do to make his game more well rounded, but he primarily relies on his speed to get by his defender and he's so fast that he commits pretty early on in the play. All of that has value. He has a role. But you don't build *around* that player. He accepts the role that's best for the team, or not.


Unless of course he grows ...


Thats the issue, I havent seen a ton of growth from him over the past 2 seasons. He improved from rookie-->sophomore but its sort of stayed stagnant since then. I know its only preseason but even the past 5 games this year he looks like the same old Colin Sexton as last year. Turned the ball over a ton and got blocked at the rim a bunch.

I get that his value is scoring but hypotheically, if the Cavs did trade him at the deadline (they wont, but still) I think there is a chance at some addition by subtraction. I think him being on the bench or if he was off the roster would let guys like Garland/Okoro grow and assume a much larger role. Since both of them are more well rounded/versatile than Sexton I wonder if the increace opportunity to 'go to work' on offense would make the Cavs better.

Its the same argument I made with Kevin Love from 2018-2020 and particularly TT when he was here. They are very good in certain areas of their games but they also are complete blackholes in other areas that it almost cancels out anything good they do. I argued that the Cavs would benefit from moving TT because while they would miss his rebounding/dunking--it would open up the offense so much more because there wouldnt be a blackhole anymore at C and it would allow the offense to function far more smoothly.

I get that same vibe from Collin. Sure hes a great scorer--but much like Love/TT the weaknesses in his game cripple the team so much that I wonder if they would just be better without him and let Garland/Okoro take the reigns. Especially with more mouths to feed with Lauri/Mobley/Rubio--we cant afford for this team to revolve around Collin Sexton.

Maybe, just maybe, getting rid of Sexton would allow Garland/Okoro/Mobley/Lauri/Allen to all take big steps forward in their games with the increased opportunities if Sexton was no longer demanding 35% of the offense and possession.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#836 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:07 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
I think thats my biggest gripe with Sexton is that he still doesnt have that feel for the game about when to do this, or where to do that. Everything just feels forced with him and I guess thats where my belief that he still overthinks on the court and doesnt play fluid at all comes from.

The amount of times he gets blocked at this rim still tells me all that I need to know about his 'BBIQ' or 'feel' for the game. He just never seems to be 1 step ahead of the defense. If he cant show that level of improvement this year I truly think it is the difference in paying him 120M as a longterm starter and 90M as a borderline starter that can be traded.
I think he's a pure scorer, he has a very strong scorer's instinct, and he's a very instinctive player. There are little things he could do to make his game more well rounded, but he primarily relies on his speed to get by his defender and he's so fast that he commits pretty early on in the play. All of that has value. He has a role. But you don't build *around* that player. He accepts the role that's best for the team, or not.


Unless of course he grows ...
Anything is possible, but at some point, you get paid to assess probabilities. There's a cost that accompanies keeping him in the starting unit while you're waiting for growth that may, or may not, materialize. Other starters need to develop and/or grow. At some point, the team needs to run something that's a lot closer to an actual NBA offense than what we've been witness to over the last three years.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#837 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:21 am

Tacko Fall getting a two-way deal seems like a questionable use of resources.

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#838 » by JonFromVA » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:00 pm

I've seen Tacko impact nba games, so that's a plus.

Hopefully the Cavs have a much better idea of whether Collin will ever stop ball stopping and pay attention on D off the ball.

The ball movement when Collin is out is nice, but we do still need to score.

And fwiw, the stats say that at his best it was primarily the Cavs offense that got a boost when TT was on the floor ... all those screens, rim running, activity, and offensive boarding adds up. Once he became more interested in reality TV then basketball, though, he should have been dumped.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#839 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:25 pm

Bridges got 4/90 and his advanced stats are a ton better than Colin's in regards to VORP and WAR. I know Colin is probably difficult to accurately judge when our team has had such awful players around him. But his extension value shouldn't exceed what Bridges got.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#840 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:27 pm

I'm fine with Tacko getting a 2 way deal. Vs certain teams he could be playable. But it's a very small handful.

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