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What should Cleveland do with their first round pick?

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toooskies
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#41 » by toooskies » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:17 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Your criteria was better suited to play SF (which in fairness I did assume meant on this roster) and I repeated it back to you.

A guy who shoots more than Lauri at a better percentage is better suited to play SF for us by your criteria of needing to improve outside shooting in the starting lineup. He doesn't have to be as good a defender of the position, and while Lauri isn't awful there, he's also not a plus defender at the 3. He'd be a liability there in a playoff series when teams will develop a game plan to get more perimeter switches.

Fundamentally, though, the problems with the packed paint involve starting Allen, Mobley, and Okoro. We won't do that next year, whether it's Sexton or LeVert at the 2. Hopefully we play Okoro mostly in minutes where one of Mobley or Allen is sitting. There, much better spacing than we had on the court this year.

(Yeah, LeVert isn't a great outside shooter and can be ignored some out there, but he does have more to his offensive game than Okoro, who can't do much other than shoot from the right corner or cut when his man ignores him.)


A playoff team is going to switch onto every guy you want to trade Lauri for with the possible exception of Wiggins, and even Wiggins isn't locking up Durant or Trae. If they don't switch onto the SF, they'll switch onto Garland, or Durant will just go straight at a guy like LeVert.

This is precisely why you need to be able to score in the playoffs. You're not shutting down the best offensive players in the world.

Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#42 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:47 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:A guy who shoots more than Lauri at a better percentage is better suited to play SF for us by your criteria of needing to improve outside shooting in the starting lineup. He doesn't have to be as good a defender of the position, and while Lauri isn't awful there, he's also not a plus defender at the 3. He'd be a liability there in a playoff series when teams will develop a game plan to get more perimeter switches.

Fundamentally, though, the problems with the packed paint involve starting Allen, Mobley, and Okoro. We won't do that next year, whether it's Sexton or LeVert at the 2. Hopefully we play Okoro mostly in minutes where one of Mobley or Allen is sitting. There, much better spacing than we had on the court this year.

(Yeah, LeVert isn't a great outside shooter and can be ignored some out there, but he does have more to his offensive game than Okoro, who can't do much other than shoot from the right corner or cut when his man ignores him.)


A playoff team is going to switch onto every guy you want to trade Lauri for with the possible exception of Wiggins, and even Wiggins isn't locking up Durant or Trae. If they don't switch onto the SF, they'll switch onto Garland, or Durant will just go straight at a guy like LeVert.

This is precisely why you need to be able to score in the playoffs. You're not shutting down the best offensive players in the world.

Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


I would like to see our core benefit from some continuity ... Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, and Robert Williams have been playing together for the past 4 seasons (give or take Horford's temporary exile) and some things that weren't making a lot of sense are finally starting to this past season in spite of burning through some supposed franchise savers like Irving, Walker, Heyward and losing some key contributors like Rozier.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#43 » by toooskies » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:31 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
A playoff team is going to switch onto every guy you want to trade Lauri for with the possible exception of Wiggins, and even Wiggins isn't locking up Durant or Trae. If they don't switch onto the SF, they'll switch onto Garland, or Durant will just go straight at a guy like LeVert.

This is precisely why you need to be able to score in the playoffs. You're not shutting down the best offensive players in the world.

Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


I would like to see our core benefit from some continuity ... Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, and Robert Williams have been playing together for the past 4 seasons (give or take Horford's temporary exile) and some things that weren't making a lot of sense are finally starting to this past season in spite of burning through some supposed franchise savers like Irving, Walker, Heyward and losing some key contributors like Rozier.

To be fair, they were good with Irving and Hayward. Kemba was a mistake, but one they had to make-- Rubio/LeVert being similar. Rozier was their Sexton.

But it would be fun investing in defenders everywhere. Gary Payton II as the backup PG. Robin Lopez as backup C. Draft the top 3-and-D prospect on the wing.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#44 » by JonFromVA » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:12 pm

toooskies wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


I would like to see our core benefit from some continuity ... Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, and Robert Williams have been playing together for the past 4 seasons (give or take Horford's temporary exile) and some things that weren't making a lot of sense are finally starting to this past season in spite of burning through some supposed franchise savers like Irving, Walker, Heyward and losing some key contributors like Rozier.

To be fair, they were good with Irving and Hayward. Kemba was a mistake, but one they had to make-- Rubio/LeVert being similar. Rozier was their Sexton.

But it would be fun investing in defenders everywhere. Gary Payton II as the backup PG. Robin Lopez as backup C. Draft the top 3-and-D prospect on the wing.


Well, dial back a few months and Ainge was out the door, Stevens was learning a new job, and Udoka seemed in over his head trying to figure out how to get Brown, Tatum, and Smart to share the ball ... but they stood by their core and their decisions and worked out their issues.

We may live in a hot-take society, but the Celtic's story is a pretty typical one in NBA history.

We need some patience and franchise stability to build our core and then have the guts/authority to stick by those decisions as the team develops.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#45 » by toooskies » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:51 am

JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I would like to see our core benefit from some continuity ... Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, and Robert Williams have been playing together for the past 4 seasons (give or take Horford's temporary exile) and some things that weren't making a lot of sense are finally starting to this past season in spite of burning through some supposed franchise savers like Irving, Walker, Heyward and losing some key contributors like Rozier.

To be fair, they were good with Irving and Hayward. Kemba was a mistake, but one they had to make-- Rubio/LeVert being similar. Rozier was their Sexton.

But it would be fun investing in defenders everywhere. Gary Payton II as the backup PG. Robin Lopez as backup C. Draft the top 3-and-D prospect on the wing.


Well, dial back a few months and Ainge was out the door, Stevens was learning a new job, and Udoka seemed in over his head trying to figure out how to get Brown, Tatum, and Smart to share the ball ... but they stood by their core and their decisions and worked out their issues.

We may live in a hot-take society, but the Celtic's story is a pretty typical one in NBA history.

We need some patience and franchise stability to build our core and then have the guts/authority to stick by those decisions as the team develops.

Kemba, Hayward, Kyrie were all core guys. Isaiah Thomas too. They just let Rozier walk. They traded Horford away and back again. They overvalued Smart for years until he somehow became the guy he should've been a half decade ago. They somehow managed to massively lose value every year for a half decade on the guys around the edges.

About the only thing they did right is not panic trade their two best players, but it worked out when they ended up with a team full of plus defenders.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#46 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:12 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:A guy who shoots more than Lauri at a better percentage is better suited to play SF for us by your criteria of needing to improve outside shooting in the starting lineup. He doesn't have to be as good a defender of the position, and while Lauri isn't awful there, he's also not a plus defender at the 3. He'd be a liability there in a playoff series when teams will develop a game plan to get more perimeter switches.

Fundamentally, though, the problems with the packed paint involve starting Allen, Mobley, and Okoro. We won't do that next year, whether it's Sexton or LeVert at the 2. Hopefully we play Okoro mostly in minutes where one of Mobley or Allen is sitting. There, much better spacing than we had on the court this year.

(Yeah, LeVert isn't a great outside shooter and can be ignored some out there, but he does have more to his offensive game than Okoro, who can't do much other than shoot from the right corner or cut when his man ignores him.)


A playoff team is going to switch onto every guy you want to trade Lauri for with the possible exception of Wiggins, and even Wiggins isn't locking up Durant or Trae. If they don't switch onto the SF, they'll switch onto Garland, or Durant will just go straight at a guy like LeVert.

This is precisely why you need to be able to score in the playoffs. You're not shutting down the best offensive players in the world.

Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


Tatum is top-3 two-way SF. I'd gladly trade Lauri and a pick for him, life is easier with those guys on the roster, but I don't think that's going to be on the table.

But none of the guys you're suggesting we sub in at SF are stopping Durant. Also, the Nets did a pretty good job of imploding and helping the Celtics out. There was some vintage Kyrie pouting and Durant hero ball in that series.

Also, it's not like the Cavs got run out of the gym. It was a five point game and we didn't even have Allen. If Allen's on the floor, you give Mobley the assignment and live with the results.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#47 » by toooskies » Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:32 am

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
A playoff team is going to switch onto every guy you want to trade Lauri for with the possible exception of Wiggins, and even Wiggins isn't locking up Durant or Trae. If they don't switch onto the SF, they'll switch onto Garland, or Durant will just go straight at a guy like LeVert.

This is precisely why you need to be able to score in the playoffs. You're not shutting down the best offensive players in the world.

Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


Tatum is top-3 two-way SF. I'd gladly trade Lauri and a pick for him, life is easier with those guys on the roster, but I don't think that's going to be on the table.

But none of the guys you're suggesting we sub in at SF are stopping Durant. Also, the Nets did a pretty good job of imploding and helping the Celtics out. There was some vintage Kyrie pouting and Durant hero ball in that series.

Also, it's not like the Cavs got run out of the gym. It was a five point game and we didn't even have Allen. If Allen's on the floor, you give Mobley the assignment and live with the results.

That wasn't my list of targets at SF, that was a list of SF shooters, which was me trying to find a guy that met your shooting requirements at the spot. I'd much prefer someone who could defend the spot better.

Your point-- that you can't win against the best offensive players in the world-- wasn't true. We just saw it happen. We just saw a Miami team take out Atlanta by shutting down Trae with Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, and PJ Tucker. Two of those guys were two-way players last season and the third was a UFA.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#48 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:20 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Or... you can be the 2021-2022 Boston Celtics and shut down two of the best offensive players in the world enough that their mediocre teammates can't make up for it.


Tatum is top-3 two-way SF. I'd gladly trade Lauri and a pick for him, life is easier with those guys on the roster, but I don't think that's going to be on the table.

But none of the guys you're suggesting we sub in at SF are stopping Durant. Also, the Nets did a pretty good job of imploding and helping the Celtics out. There was some vintage Kyrie pouting and Durant hero ball in that series.

Also, it's not like the Cavs got run out of the gym. It was a five point game and we didn't even have Allen. If Allen's on the floor, you give Mobley the assignment and live with the results.

That wasn't my list of targets at SF, that was a list of SF shooters, which was me trying to find a guy that met your shooting requirements at the spot. I'd much prefer someone who could defend the spot better.

Your point-- that you can't win against the best offensive players in the world-- wasn't true. We just saw it happen. We just saw a Miami team take out Atlanta by shutting down Trae with Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, and PJ Tucker. Two of those guys were two-way players last season and the third was a UFA.


We lost 115-108 against the Nets (again without Allen).

We lost 107-101against the Hawks (we only scored 40 points the entire second half, 17 points in the 4th quarter).

Both Miami and Boston scored 115 points in game 1 (the Nets scored 114).

Miami scored 115 points in game 2. Boston scored 114.

Miami only scored 110 points in Game 3. They lost. Heat 111.

Boston managed to win Game 3 despite scoring 109 (Nets scored 103).

Miami scored 110 points in Game 4.

Boston scored 116 in Game 4 (Nets 113).

Tonight the Heat won 97-94. This appears to be the only playoff game a team has won without scoring at least 100 points.

On average the winning team is scoring at least 110 points. If you trade offense for defense, on a team that's top 5 defensively, and bottom 10 offensively, you're not winning a playoff series.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#49 » by toooskies » Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Tatum is top-3 two-way SF. I'd gladly trade Lauri and a pick for him, life is easier with those guys on the roster, but I don't think that's going to be on the table.

But none of the guys you're suggesting we sub in at SF are stopping Durant. Also, the Nets did a pretty good job of imploding and helping the Celtics out. There was some vintage Kyrie pouting and Durant hero ball in that series.

Also, it's not like the Cavs got run out of the gym. It was a five point game and we didn't even have Allen. If Allen's on the floor, you give Mobley the assignment and live with the results.

That wasn't my list of targets at SF, that was a list of SF shooters, which was me trying to find a guy that met your shooting requirements at the spot. I'd much prefer someone who could defend the spot better.

Your point-- that you can't win against the best offensive players in the world-- wasn't true. We just saw it happen. We just saw a Miami team take out Atlanta by shutting down Trae with Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, and PJ Tucker. Two of those guys were two-way players last season and the third was a UFA.


We lost 115-108 against the Nets (again without Allen).

We lost 107-101against the Hawks (we only scored 40 points the entire second half, 17 points in the 4th quarter).

Both Miami and Boston scored 115 points in game 1 (the Nets scored 114).

Miami scored 115 points in game 2. Boston scored 114.

Miami only scored 110 points in Game 3. They lost. Heat 111.

Boston managed to win Game 3 despite scoring 109 (Nets scored 103).

Miami scored 110 points in Game 4.

Boston scored 116 in Game 4 (Nets 113).

Tonight the Heat won 97-94. This appears to be the only playoff game a team has won without scoring at least 100 points.

On average the winning team is scoring at least 110 points. If you trade offense for defense, on a team that's top 5 defensively, and bottom 10 offensively, you're not winning a playoff series.

Assuming zero offensive progress from Garland/Mobley/Allen, Sexton being useless/signed elsewhere so Okoro still starts, Okoro staying the same or regressing, and the new SF being a serious step back from Lauri who's only slightly above league average in TS% and can't create his own shot?

If our young guys don't continue to improve we're a treadmill team regardless of who we bring in.

Edit: and that's before getting into pacing discussions with your 100 point barriers, the Cavs played the slowest in the league this year.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#50 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:01 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:That wasn't my list of targets at SF, that was a list of SF shooters, which was me trying to find a guy that met your shooting requirements at the spot. I'd much prefer someone who could defend the spot better.

Your point-- that you can't win against the best offensive players in the world-- wasn't true. We just saw it happen. We just saw a Miami team take out Atlanta by shutting down Trae with Gabe Vincent, Max Strus, and PJ Tucker. Two of those guys were two-way players last season and the third was a UFA.


We lost 115-108 against the Nets (again without Allen).

We lost 107-101against the Hawks (we only scored 40 points the entire second half, 17 points in the 4th quarter).

Both Miami and Boston scored 115 points in game 1 (the Nets scored 114).

Miami scored 115 points in game 2. Boston scored 114.

Miami only scored 110 points in Game 3. They lost. Heat 111.

Boston managed to win Game 3 despite scoring 109 (Nets scored 103).

Miami scored 110 points in Game 4.

Boston scored 116 in Game 4 (Nets 113).

Tonight the Heat won 97-94. This appears to be the only playoff game a team has won without scoring at least 100 points.

On average the winning team is scoring at least 110 points. If you trade offense for defense, on a team that's top 5 defensively, and bottom 10 offensively, you're not winning a playoff series.

Assuming zero offensive progress from Garland/Mobley/Allen, Sexton being useless/signed elsewhere so Okoro still starts, Okoro staying the same or regressing, and the new SF being a serious step back from Lauri who's only slightly above league average in TS% and can't create his own shot?

If our young guys don't continue to improve we're a treadmill team regardless of who we bring in.

Edit: and that's before getting into pacing discussions with your 100 point barriers, the Cavs played the slowest in the league this year.


In terms off offense, there's a better chance of regression than improvement if the Cavs don't address their spacing issues and no, Sexton does not improve spacing. Not unless he dramatically alters how he plays.

The thing is, Lauri's defense at the 3 isn't that bad. Like I have his defense as a better option than many of the alternatives that you suggested. Having him slotted to take over Love's role in part of a three big rotation is ideal, but until we have a better option at the 3, I don't se the point of subbing a guy in just because he's a more *traditional* SF.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#51 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:48 pm

toooskies wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
toooskies wrote:To be fair, they were good with Irving and Hayward. Kemba was a mistake, but one they had to make-- Rubio/LeVert being similar. Rozier was their Sexton.

But it would be fun investing in defenders everywhere. Gary Payton II as the backup PG. Robin Lopez as backup C. Draft the top 3-and-D prospect on the wing.


Well, dial back a few months and Ainge was out the door, Stevens was learning a new job, and Udoka seemed in over his head trying to figure out how to get Brown, Tatum, and Smart to share the ball ... but they stood by their core and their decisions and worked out their issues.

We may live in a hot-take society, but the Celtic's story is a pretty typical one in NBA history.

We need some patience and franchise stability to build our core and then have the guts/authority to stick by those decisions as the team develops.

Kemba, Hayward, Kyrie were all core guys. Isaiah Thomas too. They just let Rozier walk. They traded Horford away and back again. They overvalued Smart for years until he somehow became the guy he should've been a half decade ago. They somehow managed to massively lose value every year for a half decade on the guys around the edges.

About the only thing they did right is not panic trade their two best players, but it worked out when they ended up with a team full of plus defenders.


If there's a historical lesson there, it's that the "quick fix" doesn't always work out, but if you stick with it in the long run you can actually get where you want from internal development. Don't be too quick to give up on the young guys just because they aren't looking like too much early on in to their career.

This also suggests taking jbk's approach of at least signing those non-core players to short or value contracts so we can pivot away from them easier (it cost Boston a pick Houston used to draft Sengun to make Kemba disappear and get Horford back) but I'm not convinced the Cavs have that option to attract free agents without outspending the market.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#52 » by toooskies » Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:24 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
We lost 115-108 against the Nets (again without Allen).

We lost 107-101against the Hawks (we only scored 40 points the entire second half, 17 points in the 4th quarter).

Both Miami and Boston scored 115 points in game 1 (the Nets scored 114).

Miami scored 115 points in game 2. Boston scored 114.

Miami only scored 110 points in Game 3. They lost. Heat 111.

Boston managed to win Game 3 despite scoring 109 (Nets scored 103).

Miami scored 110 points in Game 4.

Boston scored 116 in Game 4 (Nets 113).

Tonight the Heat won 97-94. This appears to be the only playoff game a team has won without scoring at least 100 points.

On average the winning team is scoring at least 110 points. If you trade offense for defense, on a team that's top 5 defensively, and bottom 10 offensively, you're not winning a playoff series.

Assuming zero offensive progress from Garland/Mobley/Allen, Sexton being useless/signed elsewhere so Okoro still starts, Okoro staying the same or regressing, and the new SF being a serious step back from Lauri who's only slightly above league average in TS% and can't create his own shot?

If our young guys don't continue to improve we're a treadmill team regardless of who we bring in.

Edit: and that's before getting into pacing discussions with your 100 point barriers, the Cavs played the slowest in the league this year.


In terms off offense, there's a better chance of regression than improvement if the Cavs don't address their spacing issues and no, Sexton does not improve spacing. Not unless he dramatically alters how he plays.

The thing is, Lauri's defense at the 3 isn't that bad. Like I have his defense as a better option than many of the alternatives that you suggested. Having him slotted to take over Love's role in part of a three big rotation is ideal, but until we have a better option at the 3, I don't se the point of subbing a guy in just because he's a more *traditional* SF.

You're not going to convince me that Sexton isn't a spacing improvement over Isaac Okoro. Yes, Sexton can drive off the dribble. He was already improving his 3-point volume to start this past season before Garland emerged, going from ~24% of his shots to ~30% of his shots, with more being assisted than at any other point in his career. He profiled very similarly in shot selection to Caris LeVert, with Sexton only having slightly more shots at the rim.

I can definitely agree that Lauri wasn't bad as our SF. He was surprisingly good, in fact. But can the Cavs win meaningful games with him there, or should we move him to backup PF now when we want to do that eventually anyway? He doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking to be next to Garland and Okoro in pressure situations, he doesn't have the on-ball defense to be next to Garland and Sexton, so the fit is just wrong with the current roster. Maybe you solve that by resolving the SG spot with someone who can handle the ball, shoot, and be a point-of-attack defender, but finding that guy is harder than, say, swapping Love for Hayward and moving Lauri to the second unit. Or swapping Lauri+ for Simmons, if you can get assurances that he re-signs.

Not saying those options are explicitly out there, most of the time you don't know if guys are available until they're available. And maybe you just wait to see if Love is worth re-signing next offseason before you make a move. Maybe you draft a wing and see if they might be the new SF first. Maybe Stevens develops an outside shot, or Wade develops his all-around game.

Doing nothing is fine, but there's no point trying to see the parts of the team jell in a weird team construction unless we're committed to playing that way long-term. (In which case, let's reinforce the tall-ball roster with another 3/4 or pure 5 in the draft.)
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#53 » by jbk1234 » Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:07 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:Assuming zero offensive progress from Garland/Mobley/Allen, Sexton being useless/signed elsewhere so Okoro still starts, Okoro staying the same or regressing, and the new SF being a serious step back from Lauri who's only slightly above league average in TS% and can't create his own shot?

If our young guys don't continue to improve we're a treadmill team regardless of who we bring in.

Edit: and that's before getting into pacing discussions with your 100 point barriers, the Cavs played the slowest in the league this year.


In terms off offense, there's a better chance of regression than improvement if the Cavs don't address their spacing issues and no, Sexton does not improve spacing. Not unless he dramatically alters how he plays.

The thing is, Lauri's defense at the 3 isn't that bad. Like I have his defense as a better option than many of the alternatives that you suggested. Having him slotted to take over Love's role in part of a three big rotation is ideal, but until we have a better option at the 3, I don't se the point of subbing a guy in just because he's a more *traditional* SF.

You're not going to convince me that Sexton isn't a spacing improvement over Isaac Okoro. Yes, Sexton can drive off the dribble. He was already improving his 3-point volume to start this past season before Garland emerged, going from ~24% of his shots to ~30% of his shots, with more being assisted than at any other point in his career. He profiled very similarly in shot selection to Caris LeVert, with Sexton only having slightly more shots at the rim.

I can definitely agree that Lauri wasn't bad as our SF. He was surprisingly good, in fact. But can the Cavs win meaningful games with him there, or should we move him to backup PF now when we want to do that eventually anyway? He doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking to be next to Garland and Okoro in pressure situations, he doesn't have the on-ball defense to be next to Garland and Sexton, so the fit is just wrong with the current roster. Maybe you solve that by resolving the SG spot with someone who can handle the ball, shoot, and be a point-of-attack defender, but finding that guy is harder than, say, swapping Love for Hayward and moving Lauri to the second unit. Or swapping Lauri+ for Simmons, if you can get assurances that he re-signs.

Not saying those options are explicitly out there, most of the time you don't know if guys are available until they're available. And maybe you just wait to see if Love is worth re-signing next offseason before you make a move. Maybe you draft a wing and see if they might be the new SF first. Maybe Stevens develops an outside shot, or Wade develops his all-around game.

Doing nothing is fine, but there's no point trying to see the parts of the team jell in a weird team construction unless we're committed to playing that way long-term. (In which case, let's reinforce the tall-ball roster with another 3/4 or pure 5 in the draft.)


I'm skeptical that Sexton will in anyway improve spacing due to his overall usage, which very, very high, and where he likes to shoot (inside the arc). He drives three out of every four times he has the ball. The name of the game is improving overall team efficiency on offense and it's not clear he does that. There's very little evidence he's a net plus on the floor despite playing with pretty bad teammates his first three years.

As an aside, you have to be concerned with whether his trips the line will continue on those drives where he initiates the contact, or like other players, whether he'll struggle with the game being called differently. You have to be concerned whether Sexton's +/- gets worse if he's asked to take less shots. Some players can scale, others are far less efficient when they're asked to do more, and players like Sexton often times aren't positive players when they're not scoring at a high rate.

Ben Simmons is an awful fit on this roster, like worse than Okoro in the starting unit, and if the Cavs trade for him, they're liable to make Mobley, Garland, and their agents very, very unhappy with possible catastrophic repercussions. The goal here is to build around your best players, not in spite of them. Luckily, I don't see any team actually trading for Simmons until he gets on the court and plays at least a half a season of basketball. He's owed more than $100M over the next three season, and him not suiting up for the Nets suggests that whatever the problem is, it hasn't been resolved. A team cannot avail itself of the medical retirement provision if it trades for the player knowing he has the condition.

Hayward has missed 30 or more games in four out of five of his last seasons, and much to the chagrin of the teams he's played on, he keeps getting injured before the post season. There's a real question in my mind as to whether he has the constitution required to be a starter in an 82-game season. Tying up that cap on him shuts a ton of doors without knowing what might be behind them.

At the end of the day, I'd rather the Cavs be patient and give their best players the proper space on the court to develop. The Cavs cannot control when real needle movers become available. No one anticipated that the Nets would trade Jarret Allen until Harden asked out even a few months before it happened.

Portland is going to try to trade for another star to put next to Dame. If they cannot, Dame might go on the block. Beal may insist on a supermax, and the Wizards would be foolish to give it to him. Kyrie's making public statements like he wants to be in charge of the Nets F.O. Let's see how that sits with the Nets. Fat Thor wants a max deal from the Sixers and he's playing a little better than average this post season. Westbrook needs a new home.

We don't know what the trade landscape will look like three month from now let alone over the next 24 months. I'd rather Altman knife his way into one of those trades as a third team, and pick off a player who could actually be the answer, than bid against the Hornets, Pelicans, Blazers, and Spurs while driving up the price of a guy like LeVert or hoping against hope that Hayward is done getting injured.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#54 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:45 pm

fwiw, it was known the Nets were going to have a hard time paying Allen and the Cavs were going to pursue signing him as a free-agent or working out a S&T deal even if the trade didn't happen as long as Drummond was sticking to wanting the max.

So, that actually is the kind of plan we could have in theory identified, suggested, and tracked.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#55 » by toooskies » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:00 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
In terms off offense, there's a better chance of regression than improvement if the Cavs don't address their spacing issues and no, Sexton does not improve spacing. Not unless he dramatically alters how he plays.

The thing is, Lauri's defense at the 3 isn't that bad. Like I have his defense as a better option than many of the alternatives that you suggested. Having him slotted to take over Love's role in part of a three big rotation is ideal, but until we have a better option at the 3, I don't se the point of subbing a guy in just because he's a more *traditional* SF.

You're not going to convince me that Sexton isn't a spacing improvement over Isaac Okoro. Yes, Sexton can drive off the dribble. He was already improving his 3-point volume to start this past season before Garland emerged, going from ~24% of his shots to ~30% of his shots, with more being assisted than at any other point in his career. He profiled very similarly in shot selection to Caris LeVert, with Sexton only having slightly more shots at the rim.

I can definitely agree that Lauri wasn't bad as our SF. He was surprisingly good, in fact. But can the Cavs win meaningful games with him there, or should we move him to backup PF now when we want to do that eventually anyway? He doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking to be next to Garland and Okoro in pressure situations, he doesn't have the on-ball defense to be next to Garland and Sexton, so the fit is just wrong with the current roster. Maybe you solve that by resolving the SG spot with someone who can handle the ball, shoot, and be a point-of-attack defender, but finding that guy is harder than, say, swapping Love for Hayward and moving Lauri to the second unit. Or swapping Lauri+ for Simmons, if you can get assurances that he re-signs.

Not saying those options are explicitly out there, most of the time you don't know if guys are available until they're available. And maybe you just wait to see if Love is worth re-signing next offseason before you make a move. Maybe you draft a wing and see if they might be the new SF first. Maybe Stevens develops an outside shot, or Wade develops his all-around game.

Doing nothing is fine, but there's no point trying to see the parts of the team jell in a weird team construction unless we're committed to playing that way long-term. (In which case, let's reinforce the tall-ball roster with another 3/4 or pure 5 in the draft.)


I'm skeptical that Sexton will in anyway improve spacing due to his overall usage, which very, very high, and where he likes to shoot (inside the arc). He drives three out of every four times he has the ball. The name of the game is improving overall team efficiency on offense and it's not clear he does that. There's very little evidence he's a net plus on the floor despite playing with pretty bad teammates his first three years.

As an aside, you have to be concerned with whether his trips the line will continue on those drives where he initiates the contact, or like other players, whether he'll struggle with the game being called differently. You have to be concerned whether Sexton's +/- gets worse if he's asked to take less shots. Some players can scale, others are far less efficient when they're asked to do more, and players like Sexton often times aren't positive players when they're not scoring at a high rate.

Ben Simmons is an awful fit on this roster, like worse than Okoro in the starting unit, and if the Cavs trade for him, they're liable to make Mobley, Garland, and their agents very, very unhappy with possible catastrophic repercussions. The goal here is to build around your best players, not in spite of them. Luckily, I don't see any team actually trading for Simmons until he gets on the court and plays at least a half a season of basketball. He's owed more than $100M over the next three season, and him not suiting up for the Nets suggests that whatever the problem is, it hasn't been resolved. A team cannot avail itself of the medical retirement provision if it trades for the player knowing he has the condition.

Hayward has missed 30 or more games in four out of five of his last seasons, and much to the chagrin of the teams he's played on, he keeps getting injured before the post season. There's a real question in my mind as to whether he has the constitution required to be a starter in an 82-game season. Tying up that cap on him shuts a ton of doors without knowing what might be behind them.

At the end of the day, I'd rather the Cavs be patient and give their best players the proper space on the court to develop. The Cavs cannot control when real needle movers become available. No one anticipated that the Nets would trade Jarret Allen until Harden asked out even a few months before it happened.

Portland is going to try to trade for another star to put next to Dame. If they cannot, Dame might go on the block. Beal may insist on a supermax, and the Wizards would be foolish to give it to him. Kyrie's making public statements like he wants to be in charge of the Nets F.O. Let's see how that sits with the Nets. Fat Thor wants a max deal from the Sixers and he's playing a little better than average this post season. Westbrook needs a new home.

We don't know what the trade landscape will look like three month from now let alone over the next 24 months. I'd rather Altman knife his way into one of those trades as a third team, and pick off a player who could actually be the answer, than bid against the Hornets, Pelicans, Blazers, and Spurs while driving up the price of a guy like LeVert or hoping against hope that Hayward is done getting injured.

According to NBA tracking, Sexton drove fewer times per minute than Garland, Rubio, or LeVert. Garland drove significantly more than anyone, although at about the same rates as 20-21. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

(I meant Wiggins, not Simmons. Sorry about that. I don't like Simmons either. I know Wiggins is only under contract for a year and may not want to stay. May need to talk extend-and-trade to make that happen. I still like the fit. I know you don't. No need to discuss.)

Guys that Gordon Hayward has played more games than in the past four years: Caris LeVert, Kevin Love, Lauri Markkanen. They are all injury-prone guys and exchanging Hayward for some combination of them doesn't significantly add to our risk, it merely consolidates it.

I agree, the Cavs can be patient. But they also can't expect to sneakily win trades when the criteria to win the trade becomes "address the exact team needs you have" instead of "get anything of more value than you send out", particularly now that the contenders in the eastern conference are going to be reluctant to help the Cavs get better.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#56 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:34 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:You're not going to convince me that Sexton isn't a spacing improvement over Isaac Okoro. Yes, Sexton can drive off the dribble. He was already improving his 3-point volume to start this past season before Garland emerged, going from ~24% of his shots to ~30% of his shots, with more being assisted than at any other point in his career. He profiled very similarly in shot selection to Caris LeVert, with Sexton only having slightly more shots at the rim.

I can definitely agree that Lauri wasn't bad as our SF. He was surprisingly good, in fact. But can the Cavs win meaningful games with him there, or should we move him to backup PF now when we want to do that eventually anyway? He doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking to be next to Garland and Okoro in pressure situations, he doesn't have the on-ball defense to be next to Garland and Sexton, so the fit is just wrong with the current roster. Maybe you solve that by resolving the SG spot with someone who can handle the ball, shoot, and be a point-of-attack defender, but finding that guy is harder than, say, swapping Love for Hayward and moving Lauri to the second unit. Or swapping Lauri+ for Simmons, if you can get assurances that he re-signs.

Not saying those options are explicitly out there, most of the time you don't know if guys are available until they're available. And maybe you just wait to see if Love is worth re-signing next offseason before you make a move. Maybe you draft a wing and see if they might be the new SF first. Maybe Stevens develops an outside shot, or Wade develops his all-around game.

Doing nothing is fine, but there's no point trying to see the parts of the team jell in a weird team construction unless we're committed to playing that way long-term. (In which case, let's reinforce the tall-ball roster with another 3/4 or pure 5 in the draft.)


I'm skeptical that Sexton will in anyway improve spacing due to his overall usage, which very, very high, and where he likes to shoot (inside the arc). He drives three out of every four times he has the ball. The name of the game is improving overall team efficiency on offense and it's not clear he does that. There's very little evidence he's a net plus on the floor despite playing with pretty bad teammates his first three years.

As an aside, you have to be concerned with whether his trips the line will continue on those drives where he initiates the contact, or like other players, whether he'll struggle with the game being called differently. You have to be concerned whether Sexton's +/- gets worse if he's asked to take less shots. Some players can scale, others are far less efficient when they're asked to do more, and players like Sexton often times aren't positive players when they're not scoring at a high rate.

Ben Simmons is an awful fit on this roster, like worse than Okoro in the starting unit, and if the Cavs trade for him, they're liable to make Mobley, Garland, and their agents very, very unhappy with possible catastrophic repercussions. The goal here is to build around your best players, not in spite of them. Luckily, I don't see any team actually trading for Simmons until he gets on the court and plays at least a half a season of basketball. He's owed more than $100M over the next three season, and him not suiting up for the Nets suggests that whatever the problem is, it hasn't been resolved. A team cannot avail itself of the medical retirement provision if it trades for the player knowing he has the condition.

Hayward has missed 30 or more games in four out of five of his last seasons, and much to the chagrin of the teams he's played on, he keeps getting injured before the post season. There's a real question in my mind as to whether he has the constitution required to be a starter in an 82-game season. Tying up that cap on him shuts a ton of doors without knowing what might be behind them.

At the end of the day, I'd rather the Cavs be patient and give their best players the proper space on the court to develop. The Cavs cannot control when real needle movers become available. No one anticipated that the Nets would trade Jarret Allen until Harden asked out even a few months before it happened.

Portland is going to try to trade for another star to put next to Dame. If they cannot, Dame might go on the block. Beal may insist on a supermax, and the Wizards would be foolish to give it to him. Kyrie's making public statements like he wants to be in charge of the Nets F.O. Let's see how that sits with the Nets. Fat Thor wants a max deal from the Sixers and he's playing a little better than average this post season. Westbrook needs a new home.

We don't know what the trade landscape will look like three month from now let alone over the next 24 months. I'd rather Altman knife his way into one of those trades as a third team, and pick off a player who could actually be the answer, than bid against the Hornets, Pelicans, Blazers, and Spurs while driving up the price of a guy like LeVert or hoping against hope that Hayward is done getting injured.

According to NBA tracking, Sexton drove fewer times per minute than Garland, Rubio, or LeVert. Garland drove significantly more than anyone, although at about the same rates as 20-21. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

(I meant Wiggins, not Simmons. Sorry about that. I don't like Simmons either. I know Wiggins is only under contract for a year and may not want to stay. May need to talk extend-and-trade to make that happen. I still like the fit. I know you don't. No need to discuss.)

Guys that Gordon Hayward has played more games than in the past four years: Caris LeVert, Kevin Love, Lauri Markkanen. They are all injury-prone guys and exchanging Hayward for some combination of them doesn't significantly add to our risk, it merely consolidates it.

I agree, the Cavs can be patient. But they also can't expect to sneakily win trades when the criteria to win the trade becomes "address the exact team needs you have" instead of "get anything of more value than you send out", particularly now that the contenders in the eastern conference are going to be reluctant to help the Cavs get better.


I just hope whatever the moves are, they are done to fit a vision for the team. Churning players because some of our guys got hurt or had a down season is a great way to end up chasing our tail.

32 year old Hayward might look nice on our roster next season over Lauri, but what about in 3 years when Gordon is 35 and Lauri at 28 is hitting his prime and used to playing with these guys?
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#57 » by jbk1234 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:36 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:You're not going to convince me that Sexton isn't a spacing improvement over Isaac Okoro. Yes, Sexton can drive off the dribble. He was already improving his 3-point volume to start this past season before Garland emerged, going from ~24% of his shots to ~30% of his shots, with more being assisted than at any other point in his career. He profiled very similarly in shot selection to Caris LeVert, with Sexton only having slightly more shots at the rim.

I can definitely agree that Lauri wasn't bad as our SF. He was surprisingly good, in fact. But can the Cavs win meaningful games with him there, or should we move him to backup PF now when we want to do that eventually anyway? He doesn't have the ballhandling or playmaking to be next to Garland and Okoro in pressure situations, he doesn't have the on-ball defense to be next to Garland and Sexton, so the fit is just wrong with the current roster. Maybe you solve that by resolving the SG spot with someone who can handle the ball, shoot, and be a point-of-attack defender, but finding that guy is harder than, say, swapping Love for Hayward and moving Lauri to the second unit. Or swapping Lauri+ for Simmons, if you can get assurances that he re-signs.

Not saying those options are explicitly out there, most of the time you don't know if guys are available until they're available. And maybe you just wait to see if Love is worth re-signing next offseason before you make a move. Maybe you draft a wing and see if they might be the new SF first. Maybe Stevens develops an outside shot, or Wade develops his all-around game.

Doing nothing is fine, but there's no point trying to see the parts of the team jell in a weird team construction unless we're committed to playing that way long-term. (In which case, let's reinforce the tall-ball roster with another 3/4 or pure 5 in the draft.)


I'm skeptical that Sexton will in anyway improve spacing due to his overall usage, which very, very high, and where he likes to shoot (inside the arc). He drives three out of every four times he has the ball. The name of the game is improving overall team efficiency on offense and it's not clear he does that. There's very little evidence he's a net plus on the floor despite playing with pretty bad teammates his first three years.

As an aside, you have to be concerned with whether his trips the line will continue on those drives where he initiates the contact, or like other players, whether he'll struggle with the game being called differently. You have to be concerned whether Sexton's +/- gets worse if he's asked to take less shots. Some players can scale, others are far less efficient when they're asked to do more, and players like Sexton often times aren't positive players when they're not scoring at a high rate.

Ben Simmons is an awful fit on this roster, like worse than Okoro in the starting unit, and if the Cavs trade for him, they're liable to make Mobley, Garland, and their agents very, very unhappy with possible catastrophic repercussions. The goal here is to build around your best players, not in spite of them. Luckily, I don't see any team actually trading for Simmons until he gets on the court and plays at least a half a season of basketball. He's owed more than $100M over the next three season, and him not suiting up for the Nets suggests that whatever the problem is, it hasn't been resolved. A team cannot avail itself of the medical retirement provision if it trades for the player knowing he has the condition.

Hayward has missed 30 or more games in four out of five of his last seasons, and much to the chagrin of the teams he's played on, he keeps getting injured before the post season. There's a real question in my mind as to whether he has the constitution required to be a starter in an 82-game season. Tying up that cap on him shuts a ton of doors without knowing what might be behind them.

At the end of the day, I'd rather the Cavs be patient and give their best players the proper space on the court to develop. The Cavs cannot control when real needle movers become available. No one anticipated that the Nets would trade Jarret Allen until Harden asked out even a few months before it happened.

Portland is going to try to trade for another star to put next to Dame. If they cannot, Dame might go on the block. Beal may insist on a supermax, and the Wizards would be foolish to give it to him. Kyrie's making public statements like he wants to be in charge of the Nets F.O. Let's see how that sits with the Nets. Fat Thor wants a max deal from the Sixers and he's playing a little better than average this post season. Westbrook needs a new home.

We don't know what the trade landscape will look like three month from now let alone over the next 24 months. I'd rather Altman knife his way into one of those trades as a third team, and pick off a player who could actually be the answer, than bid against the Hornets, Pelicans, Blazers, and Spurs while driving up the price of a guy like LeVert or hoping against hope that Hayward is done getting injured.

According to NBA tracking, Sexton drove fewer times per minute than Garland, Rubio, or LeVert. Garland drove significantly more than anyone, although at about the same rates as 20-21. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/drives/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&sort=DRIVES&dir=1

(I meant Wiggins, not Simmons. Sorry about that. I don't like Simmons either. I know Wiggins is only under contract for a year and may not want to stay. May need to talk extend-and-trade to make that happen. I still like the fit. I know you don't. No need to discuss.)

Guys that Gordon Hayward has played more games than in the past four years: Caris LeVert, Kevin Love, Lauri Markkanen. They are all injury-prone guys and exchanging Hayward for some combination of them doesn't significantly add to our risk, it merely consolidates it.

I agree, the Cavs can be patient. But they also can't expect to sneakily win trades when the criteria to win the trade becomes "address the exact team needs you have" instead of "get anything of more value than you send out", particularly now that the contenders in the eastern conference are going to be reluctant to help the Cavs get better.


He played like 9 games this season and driving with zero intention of passing it back out or to your teammates is very different than driving with being solely focused on getting a bucket. There's a very large sample size here.

As to Hayward, he keep breaking down and missing the playoffs. It's a problem for a max guy. I just don't have any desire to extend the K. Love experience and I worry that's what it would be.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#58 » by toooskies » Sat May 14, 2022 7:34 pm

Any thoughts about trading down from #14, possibly with SAS for #20 and #25?
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#59 » by JonFromVA » Sun May 15, 2022 5:01 pm

toooskies wrote:Any thoughts about trading down from #14, possibly with SAS for #20 and #25?


Even more picks? I'm assuming Altman will be looking for a way to combine the Spurs 2nd and our first to move up. We weren't planning on drafting 3 players ...

... not that I'm opposed to cheap/young depth with this team, but presumably they have a target for how many players they want to assimilate and try to develop per season.
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Re: What should Cleveland do with their first round pick? 

Post#60 » by gflem » Sun May 15, 2022 6:36 pm

toooskies wrote:Any thoughts about trading down from #14, possibly with SAS for #20 and #25?

Is SA were interested, who would you be targeting with those picks?

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