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[mcfly1204]

I was on Waiters Island for so long they still send me timeshare literature.

Was Pavlovic there?

[KuruptedCav]

College coaches will sometimes go too far to promote their guy, alas Gilbert didn't listen to Izzo who tried to tell him to go get Draymond.

The amount of prospects the Cavs have passed over drafting in just the past 20 years, hurts my soul.

Sure, they've missed out on a ton of players, but this was different in that this was a case Gilbert could have meddled with the process by favoring his love of MSU and Tom Izzo and we would have greatly benefited.

Shannon Brown didn’t work out and Tom Izzo declined him. Uncle Dan wasn’t the highest EQ person back in them days.

That trade for Tyler Zeller still boggles my mind. Trading three picks for a high floor low ceiling 4 year in college backup center.

Combined with drafting a role player @#4. Poor Gilbert honestly thought he was going to catch lightening and compete for a ring right away.

The worst part is that Crowder and Green were exactly the type of players they were looking for. Smdh.

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[JujitsuFlip]

The amount of prospects the Cavs have passed over drafting in just the past 20 years, hurts my soul.

Sure, they've missed out on a ton of players, but this was different in that this was a case Gilbert could have meddled with the process by favoring his love of MSU and Tom Izzo and we would have greatly benefited.

Shannon Brown didn’t work out and Tom Izzo declined him. Uncle Dan wasn’t the highest EQ person back in them days.

That trade for Tyler Zeller still boggles my mind. Trading three picks for a high floor low ceiling 4 year in college backup center.

Combined with drafting a role player @#4. Poor Gilbert honestly thought he was going to catch lightening and compete for a ring right away.

The worst part is that Crowder and Green were exactly the type of players they were looking for. Smdh.

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There's no guarantee the Cavs take Draymond and Middleton, even if they kept those 2nd rounders.

Plus, Cunningham and Crowder ended up on the Cavs eventually, anyway and BJ never really had an NBA career to speak of.

[KuruptedCav]

Sure, they've missed out on a ton of players, but this was different in that this was a case Gilbert could have meddled with the process by favoring his love of MSU and Tom Izzo and we would have greatly benefited.

Shannon Brown didn’t work out and Tom Izzo declined him. Uncle Dan wasn’t the highest EQ person back in them days.

That trade for Tyler Zeller still boggles my mind. Trading three picks for a high floor low ceiling 4 year in college backup center.

Combined with drafting a role player @#4. Poor Gilbert honestly thought he was going to catch lightening and compete for a ring right away.

The worst part is that Crowder and Green were exactly the type of players they were looking for. Smdh.

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There's no guarantee the Cavs take Draymond and Middleton, even if they kept those 2nd rounders.

Plus, Cunningham and Crowder ended up on the Cavs eventually, anyway and BJ never really had an NBA career to speak of.

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.


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[TheLand13]

Waiters got us JR Smith and Iman Shumpert. For that I will always be grateful.

[JonFromVA]

Shannon Brown didn’t work out and Tom Izzo declined him. Uncle Dan wasn’t the highest EQ person back in them days.

That trade for Tyler Zeller still boggles my mind. Trading three picks for a high floor low ceiling 4 year in college backup center.

Combined with drafting a role player @#4. Poor Gilbert honestly thought he was going to catch lightening and compete for a ring right away.

The worst part is that Crowder and Green were exactly the type of players they were looking for. Smdh.

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There's no guarantee the Cavs take Draymond and Middleton, even if they kept those 2nd rounders.

Plus, Cunningham and Crowder ended up on the Cavs eventually, anyway and BJ never really had an NBA career to speak of.

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

[KuruptedCav]

There's no guarantee the Cavs take Draymond and Middleton, even if they kept those 2nd rounders.

Plus, Cunningham and Crowder ended up on the Cavs eventually, anyway and BJ never really had an NBA career to speak of.

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49


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[JonFromVA]

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49

You know what that list is missing?

Big men.

[TheLand13]

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49

You know what that list is missing?

Big men.

Is there a reason why the bigs Cleveland did in fact draft are secluded from this list? Am I missing something here?

[KuruptedCav]

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49

You know what that list is missing?

Big men.

Is there a reason why the bigs Cleveland did in fact draft are secluded from this list? Am I missing something here?

Because I was only listing out 3pt shooters


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[JujitsuFlip]

There's no guarantee the Cavs take Draymond and Middleton, even if they kept those 2nd rounders.

Plus, Cunningham and Crowder ended up on the Cavs eventually, anyway and BJ never really had an NBA career to speak of.

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

I don't think I'd use the word cheap for the shooters they added this summer, lol

[JonFromVA]

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

I don't think I'd use the word cheap for the shooters they added this summer, lol

In NBA terms I would.

Compare to what we gave up and paid 35yr old Kyle Korver and 32 year old Channing Frye back in the day (to pro-rate those salaries you probably have to double them).

And of course we paid Kevin Love a pretty penny to give us 17 & 10 over a couple of injury filled seasons before he fell off to being way too close to Georges Niang level.

[JujitsuFlip]

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

I don't think I'd use the word cheap for the shooters they added this summer, lol

In NBA terms I would.

Compare to what we gave up and paid 35yr old Kyle Korver and 32 year old Channing Frye back in the day (to pro-rate those salaries you probably have to double them).

And of course we paid Kevin Love a pretty penny to give us 17 & 10 over a couple of injury filled seasons before he fell off to being way too close to Georges Niang level.

Maybe by NBA terms but it vastly more money than either guy has ever made to date.

Meh, Cavs traded for both of those dudes at $7 million, I understand different salary cap then though.

Not sure I'd classify Love as just a shooter.

[JonFromVA]

I don't think I'd use the word cheap for the shooters they added this summer, lol

In NBA terms I would.

Compare to what we gave up and paid 35yr old Kyle Korver and 32 year old Channing Frye back in the day (to pro-rate those salaries you probably have to double them).

And of course we paid Kevin Love a pretty penny to give us 17 & 10 over a couple of injury filled seasons before he fell off to being way too close to Georges Niang level.

Maybe by NBA terms but it vastly more money than either guy has ever made to date.

Meh, Cavs traded for both of those dudes at $7 million, I understand different salary cap then though.

Not sure I'd classify Love as just a shooter.

Well, I assume you're taking issue with Strus because Niang who's 30 years old is getting just $8M?

Stus is entering his prime at 27 and getting his first big pay day, and even at $15M it still de-rates to be about the same as $7.8M Frye was making back in 2015. The luxury tax level was at $84.74M then and now it's $165.3M, so, nearly 2X.

We just saw Kevin become literally useless to us when he couldn't knock down 3pters. Of course Niang isn't just a shooter either, but I doubt he sees much playtime if he can't knock down shots.

Of course the Cavs aren't going to get anyone for cheap in free-agency unless we're the last team with money to spend, but we got the guys we wanted at prices we could afford.

[JujitsuFlip]

In NBA terms I would.

Compare to what we gave up and paid 35yr old Kyle Korver and 32 year old Channing Frye back in the day (to pro-rate those salaries you probably have to double them).

And of course we paid Kevin Love a pretty penny to give us 17 & 10 over a couple of injury filled seasons before he fell off to being way too close to Georges Niang level.

Maybe by NBA terms but it vastly more money than either guy has ever made to date.

Meh, Cavs traded for both of those dudes at $7 million, I understand different salary cap then though.

Not sure I'd classify Love as just a shooter.

Well, I assume you're taking issue with Strus because Niang who's 30 years old is getting just $8M?

Stus is entering his prime at 27 and getting his first big pay day, and even at $15M it still de-rates to be about the same as $7.8M Frye was making back in 2015. The luxury tax level was at $84.74M then and now it's $165.3M, so, nearly 2X.

We just saw Kevin become literally useless to us when he couldn't knock down 3pters. Of course Niang isn't just a shooter either, but I doubt he sees much playtime if he can't knock down shots.

Of course the Cavs aren't going to get anyone for cheap in free-agency unless we're the last team with money to spend, but we got the guys we wanted at prices we could afford.

I have no issue with either, they are a necessity. I had Strus valued at the MLE and he got slightly more and Niang valued at the BAE and he got slightly more.

Per % of the cap, you're right Sturs/Frye and Niang/Korver are similar.

But Love wasn't the 34 year old version of himself when he signed either extension.

[jbk1234]

I was thinking Jae and Dray.

Khris was a poor prospect playing the same position as the Cavs’ #4 pick… probably.

Regardless, 3 picks for styler Zeller a year into a rebuild is what happens when you fool yourself into a retool mentality.

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49


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This is like four different front offices and you omitted a bunch of picks.

[KuruptedCav]

Ironically, even Cody Zeller (not in that draft) would have been a wasted pick ... at least compared to the shotgun approach of keeping our picks and hitting on one of them.

Admittedly no sure thing we would have identified Crowder, Middleton, Barton, or even Satoransky ... but if Gilbert simply listened to his friend we could have had Green.

Got to actually wonder about our scouting process that even at 17 we took Zeller over Green considering they were close in age, both played 4 years, Zeller was taller, but Green had the better Wingspan, Zeller's only positive attribute was that he ran the floor well and could have been good on an up-tempo team .vs. Green who had broad skills including passing, 3pt shooting, and rebounding.

It's interesting looking back at Cavs drafts that we haven't sought out shooters more often even after doing pretty well with Daniel GIbson and Jason Kapono way back. For a team that saw what simply playing Wally Sczerbiak at PF could do for spacing, you'd think we would have been looking for bigs who could shoot.

Maybe they always felt they could add shooting on the cheap? Looks like they're testing that theory this off-season.

They’ve invested reasonably, just really bad at player development.

Since James was drafted they’ve drafted:
Kyrie Irving #1
Darius Garland #5
Luke Jackson #10
Ochai Agbaji #14
Sergey Karasev #19
Dylan Windler #26
Jason Kapono #31
Joe Harris #33
Daniel Gibson #42
Danny Green #49


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This is like four different front offices and you omitted a bunch of picks.

What shooters did I miss? I guess Carrick Felix was kind of a shooter at AZ State.


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[mcfly1204]

We've done well in free agency and trades when it comes to shooters. amon ones, Donyell Marshall, JR Smith, Channing Frye, Mo Williams. Drafting outright shooters just feels so risky. If a lot of those guys are not hitting shots consistently, they are not getting much PT. That's why you see guys like Kapono, Gibson, and Harris taken so late in the draft.

[JonFromVA]

Maybe by NBA terms but it vastly more money than either guy has ever made to date.

Meh, Cavs traded for both of those dudes at $7 million, I understand different salary cap then though.

Not sure I'd classify Love as just a shooter.

Well, I assume you're taking issue with Strus because Niang who's 30 years old is getting just $8M?

Stus is entering his prime at 27 and getting his first big pay day, and even at $15M it still de-rates to be about the same as $7.8M Frye was making back in 2015. The luxury tax level was at $84.74M then and now it's $165.3M, so, nearly 2X.

We just saw Kevin become literally useless to us when he couldn't knock down 3pters. Of course Niang isn't just a shooter either, but I doubt he sees much playtime if he can't knock down shots.

Of course the Cavs aren't going to get anyone for cheap in free-agency unless we're the last team with money to spend, but we got the guys we wanted at prices we could afford.

I have no issue with either, they are a necessity. I had Strus valued at the MLE and he got slightly more and Niang valued at the BAE and he got slightly more.

Per % of the cap, you're right Sturs/Frye and Niang/Korver are similar.

But Love wasn't the 34 year old version of himself when he signed either extension.

Your valuations are the low-end - what multiple teams would have gladly paid them. We wanted those specific players and in order to get them we needed to offer them more money and a better opportunity than they were likely to get from Miami/Philly or another team.

Buying something at or below value at an auction is tricky even when bidding on inanimate objects that don't play favorites.

Kevin even at the end of the contract was capable of many more things than Niang, but Niang has been better at the one thing we most needed from Kev - aka burying 3pters. We'll see how it washes out, but there's only one basketball and ideally we pick up the numbers we're losing from Kevin via other players.

Allen/Mobley will need to pickup their rebounding or else JBB will need to get creative about how we go after boards (maybe CPJ can put on a clinic for the team).

[JonFromVA]

We've done well in free agency and trades when it comes to shooters. amon ones, Donyell Marshall, JR Smith, Channing Frye, Mo Williams. Drafting outright shooters just feels so risky. If a lot of those guys are not hitting shots consistently, they are not getting much PT. That's why you see guys like Kapono, Gibson, and Harris taken so late in the draft.

That's basically what I'm suggesting the Cavs may have been executing as a strategy - that they'd fill out the roster with proven vet shooters later and this off-season being our first opportunity to do so.

We can certainly point to cases they should have favored shooting and experience over youth and presumed upside in the draft: like Klay over Tristan or Lillard over Waiters; but looking for young supposedly high upside players can be risky too.