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[JonFromVA]

Where they extend their defense out to would impact defensive rebounding, that is not at all what jbk and i were discussing. Jbk is alluding to Mobley and/or Allen actually working on their offensive game and learning how to shoot would impact their rebounding. The only rebounding that could potentially hurt would be offensive, not defensive.

Obviously you're referencing spacing, I'm referencing the tiny sample that Zion has played in the NBA, specifically with Jonas. At most I have 34 games to pick from and that's if Jonas didn't miss any of the games that Zion actually played in. It's like finding a needle in a haystack... I'm sure in that small sample it's still there but I don't care enough to try and prove your point; my whole point is guys who weren't shooters entering the NBA can now shoot all way out to the 3 point line.

a) I mentioned it affected defensive rebounding - it's in you're quote.

b) We have video from this season, go watch plays on nba.com and go show me a sign of gravity. Heck, show me whatever you feel like to backup your claim that JV has gravity. I didn't see it when I looked, and I really didn't expect to.

A) i fail to see the relevance lol that would be like 2 people talking about different cuts of meat and you chiming in from the back about chocolate covered pretzels. Sure, they're both food but the chocolate covered pretzels have nothing to do with different cuts of meat.

B) nah, I'm good lol you're the one making the point about those 2 specific players. All i said is Mobley and Allen SHOULD be able to reach Jonas level of shooting ability from 3.

I'm more than happy with the level of relevance my comment provides. If you want to make points without demonstrating them, that's always your right. I'll just continues to dismiss them and stick with my own conclusions based on what I've seen.

[JonFromVA]

Kevin Love currently not starting for Miami, and I'd be willing to bet that he gets a DNP tonight. He was also out of the rotation in the previous game as well.

Question: We know Kevin wants to play and that he will not accept being a DNP for long. Let's say for the sake of argument that Kevin ends up getting released... would he be allowed to come back to Cleveland this season? Follow up question... in that scenario, do you guys think Cleveland would learn from their previous mistake and put Kevin back in the rotation?

I'm still one to believe that Love being out of the rotation was not necessarily a bad thing, however with our lack of big men he could be a good platoon piece with Damion Jones/Tristan Thompson for the match-up we have. I also doubt it happens.

I haven't watched him at all this year, but his offensive numbers look as good as last year so his defense must be atrocious for him to be out of that bench spot.

Kevin was listed with a shoulder injury on 10/28 and an undisclosed injury on 11/1.

I think he's just having a hard time trying to stay healthy and when anything throws his shooting off, it becomes very hard to justify playing him.

I suspect we'll often go small at PF off the bench and one big advantage Niang, Wade, Strus, Okoro, etc, all have over Kevin is they will at least try to do what the defensive scheme asks of them.

[ijspeelman]

I'm gonna go ahead and say very low chance Mobley shoots 3s even close to Valanciunas level.

Forget the fact that he refuses to take even wide open shots (I blame JB for not empowering him to do so). His shot mechanics are bad.

He has no jumper at all, from anywhere on the court. His FTs are below average too. His load up and release is way too slow to ever be useful. His jumpshot has somehow regressed this year and looks as bad as it ever has. His shot is flat and he has no touch on floaters.

It's year 3 and there's been 0 progression offensively for him. I know I blame everything on JB but the players can only play within the system and role they are given. If you don't make progression in the 1st 3 years of your career the overwhelming chance is that you never will.

Brook is a bad comparison because he always shot FTs well and had a good looking jumper, he just never took 3s. He didn't even really ramp, he went from 0 to 35% on 5 a game.

Horford was also a decent FT shooter and had a good mid/long mid jumper his whole career, he just never shot 3s until Bud came around.

Baynes, another guy who was a really good FT shooter.

Its a very low probability that Mobley ends up shooting threes efficiently at volume, but its not unprecedented.

I brought up those guys not as direct comparisons to Mobley, but those with the archetype that transitioned into three point shooters. Currently, Mobley is below their standards even for their experience in the league.

I do think it’s unprecedented. I can’t think of any big who went from bad to serviceable as a 3pt shooter.

If your jumpshot is broken, and it’s not addressed very early in your career, you can’t “unbreak” it.

Honestly Mobley looks as if he’s never worked with a shooting coach at all. His shot mechanics are terrible

I am going to define a "serviceable big 3pt shooter" as someone who has shot 35% from three and 2 3PAs per game for one season at PF or C (basically just comparing to Jonas directly). Comparing that to a player that at one point was similar to Mobley (under 30% 3P% for at least first two years).

List of players I could find:
Wendell Carter Jr
Marvin Williams
Dorian Finney-Smith
Aaron Gordon
Donatas Motiejūnas
Jabari Parker
Blake Griffin
Aleksej Pokusevski
DeMarcus Cousins
Marreese Speights
Jusuf Nurkić
Patrick Patterson
Brook Lopez

Again, its not unprecedented, but super unlikely. Out of these guys that fit Mobley's description, most do not pan out into serviceable spacers.

Also, Mobley is a 66.8% FT shooter. Those that are under this mark for those first two seasons:
Donatas Motiejūnas
Blake Griffin
Jusuf Nurkić

AD was close to making the first category, but has never had a season above 34% from three.

[JonFromVA]

Its a very low probability that Mobley ends up shooting threes efficiently at volume, but its not unprecedented.

I brought up those guys not as direct comparisons to Mobley, but those with the archetype that transitioned into three point shooters. Currently, Mobley is below their standards even for their experience in the league.

I do think it’s unprecedented. I can’t think of any big who went from bad to serviceable as a 3pt shooter.

If your jumpshot is broken, and it’s not addressed very early in your career, you can’t “unbreak” it.

Honestly Mobley looks as if he’s never worked with a shooting coach at all. His shot mechanics are terrible

I am going to define a "serviceable big 3pt shooter" as someone who has shot 35% from three and 2 3PAs per game for one season at PF or C (basically just comparing to Jonas directly). Comparing that to a player that at one point was similar to Mobley (under 30% 3P% for at least first two years).

List of players I could find:
Wendell Carter Jr
Marvin Williams
Dorian Finney-Smith
Aaron Gordon
Donatas Motiejūnas
Jabari Parker
Blake Griffin
Aleksej Pokusevski
DeMarcus Cousins
Marreese Speights
Jusuf Nurkić
Patrick Patterson
Brook Lopez

Again, its not unprecedented, but super unlikely. Out of these guys that fit Mobley's description, most do not pan out into serviceable spacers.

Also, Mobley is a 66.8% FT shooter. Those that are under this mark for those first two seasons:
Donatas Motiejūnas
Blake Griffin
Jusuf Nurkić

AD was close to making the first category, but has never had a season above 34% from three.

We are pretty much all guilty of the fallacy of trying to apply statistical predictive approaches to individuals when they are meant to be used in aggregate (aka on groups).

Mobley is his own person and he's going to develop how he develops, we can do little but watch and see.

What we need to be watching for this season is whether we can get Evan more involved in the offense so defenses can't just ignore him and whether having 3 or 4 high-level shooters on the floor around him is sufficient.

I've suggested before I'd like to see Evan establish some spots on the floor where he will take J's and just focus on shooting from those spots. That kind of thing is easily countered by a defense that learns his spots, but I'd rather see him start with something both he and his teammates can build confidence with.

[ijspeelman]

We are pretty much all guilty of the fallacy of trying to apply statistical predictive approaches to individuals when they are meant to be used in aggregate (aka on groups).

Mobley is his own person and he's going to develop how he develops, we can do little but watch and see.

What we need to be watching for this season is whether we can get Evan more involved in the offense so defenses can't just ignore him and whether having 3 or 4 high-level shooters on the floor around him is sufficient.

I've suggested before I'd like to see Evan establish some spots on the floor where he will take J's and just focus on shooting from those spots. That kind of thing is easily countered by a defense that learns his spots, but I'd rather see him start with something both he and his teammates can build confidence with.

Just adding the amount of DHOs he's been doing with Strus, Garland, and Mitchell has made him a "spacer". Him getting more familiar with the role, how to attack out of it, how to target passes within the DHO or outside of it, and when to run into one will only improve our spacing and his effective on offense.

Watch Draymond Green play and you will see why he's not a liability on offense despite his shooting.

[JujitsuFlip]

a) I mentioned it affected defensive rebounding - it's in you're quote.

b) We have video from this season, go watch plays on nba.com and go show me a sign of gravity. Heck, show me whatever you feel like to backup your claim that JV has gravity. I didn't see it when I looked, and I really didn't expect to.

A) i fail to see the relevance lol that would be like 2 people talking about different cuts of meat and you chiming in from the back about chocolate covered pretzels. Sure, they're both food but the chocolate covered pretzels have nothing to do with different cuts of meat.

B) nah, I'm good lol you're the one making the point about those 2 specific players. All i said is Mobley and Allen SHOULD be able to reach Jonas level of shooting ability from 3.

I'm more than happy with the level of relevance my comment provides. If you want to make points without demonstrating them, that's always your right. I'll just continues to dismiss them and stick with my own conclusions based on what I've seen.

Lmao the point was about offensive rebounding...........

You bringing up defensive rebounding is wholly irreverent but heck yeah brother, keep fighting the good fight.

[jasonxxx102]

We are pretty much all guilty of the fallacy of trying to apply statistical predictive approaches to individuals when they are meant to be used in aggregate (aka on groups).

Mobley is his own person and he's going to develop how he develops, we can do little but watch and see.

What we need to be watching for this season is whether we can get Evan more involved in the offense so defenses can't just ignore him and whether having 3 or 4 high-level shooters on the floor around him is sufficient.

I've suggested before I'd like to see Evan establish some spots on the floor where he will take J's and just focus on shooting from those spots. That kind of thing is easily countered by a defense that learns his spots, but I'd rather see him start with something both he and his teammates can build confidence with.

Just adding the amount of DHOs he's been doing with Strus, Garland, and Mitchell has made him a "spacer". Him getting more familiar with the role, how to attack out of it, how to target passes within the DHO or outside of it, and when to run into one will only improve our spacing and his effective on offense.

Watch Draymond Green play and you will see why he's not a liability on offense despite his shooting.

I agree with you about the DHOs and spacing. I’ll only add that Draymond also isn’t terrified to shoot the ball and is flanked by 2 super massive black holes (in terms of floor gravity)

Mobley absolutely refuses to take open shots.

He’s either

1) told not to

2) not confident in taking them

Or a combination of both… unfortunately only one of them is easily fixable

[ijspeelman]

We are pretty much all guilty of the fallacy of trying to apply statistical predictive approaches to individuals when they are meant to be used in aggregate (aka on groups).

Mobley is his own person and he's going to develop how he develops, we can do little but watch and see.

What we need to be watching for this season is whether we can get Evan more involved in the offense so defenses can't just ignore him and whether having 3 or 4 high-level shooters on the floor around him is sufficient.

I've suggested before I'd like to see Evan establish some spots on the floor where he will take J's and just focus on shooting from those spots. That kind of thing is easily countered by a defense that learns his spots, but I'd rather see him start with something both he and his teammates can build confidence with.

Just adding the amount of DHOs he's been doing with Strus, Garland, and Mitchell has made him a "spacer". Him getting more familiar with the role, how to attack out of it, how to target passes within the DHO or outside of it, and when to run into one will only improve our spacing and his effective on offense.

Watch Draymond Green play and you will see why he's not a liability on offense despite his shooting.

I agree with you about the DHOs and spacing. I’ll only add that Draymond also isn’t terrified to shoot the ball and is flanked by 2 super massive black holes (in terms of floor gravity)

Mobley absolutely refuses to take open shots.

He’s either

1) told not to

2) not confident in taking them

Or a combination of both… unfortunately only one of them is easily fixable

Comparing Green and Mobley actually shows they are fairly similar. I am not going to take this season's sample too seriously since its incredibly small.

In the last two years, Green has shot 1.2 and 1.8 3PA/GM and Mobley has shot 1.3 and 1.3 3PA/GM. Just a difference a difference of 0.2 3PA/GM (or an add'l 16 attempts in a season).

I'll also compare /100 stats because I like them more anyway lol. Green has shot 2.0 and 2.7 3PA/100 and Mobley has shot 2.0 and 1.8 3PA/100. Now a difference of 0.4, but similar % difference.

In the past, Green has shot a lot more (and also has actually had good seasons of efficiency), but I am eluding that I find Mobley's role to be similar to that of the recent role of Green.

Do I think JB is telling him to shoot less threes or that he is less confident? Maybe on both fronts. I assume they are exploring different options for Mobley to provide spacing (which have had varying impacts in this season so far).

[JonFromVA]

A) i fail to see the relevance lol that would be like 2 people talking about different cuts of meat and you chiming in from the back about chocolate covered pretzels. Sure, they're both food but the chocolate covered pretzels have nothing to do with different cuts of meat.

B) nah, I'm good lol you're the one making the point about those 2 specific players. All i said is Mobley and Allen SHOULD be able to reach Jonas level of shooting ability from 3.

I'm more than happy with the level of relevance my comment provides. If you want to make points without demonstrating them, that's always your right. I'll just continues to dismiss them and stick with my own conclusions based on what I've seen.

Lmao the point was about offensive rebounding...........

You bringing up defensive rebounding is wholly irreverent but heck yeah brother, keep fighting the good fight.

Dude are you trying to win points in your own head or something? It's a discussion, at least if you want it to be. Or we can just talk past each other which we've often done. Doesn't matter to me.

[JonFromVA]

Just adding the amount of DHOs he's been doing with Strus, Garland, and Mitchell has made him a "spacer". Him getting more familiar with the role, how to attack out of it, how to target passes within the DHO or outside of it, and when to run into one will only improve our spacing and his effective on offense.

Watch Draymond Green play and you will see why he's not a liability on offense despite his shooting.

I agree with you about the DHOs and spacing. I’ll only add that Draymond also isn’t terrified to shoot the ball and is flanked by 2 super massive black holes (in terms of floor gravity)

Mobley absolutely refuses to take open shots.

He’s either

1) told not to

2) not confident in taking them

Or a combination of both… unfortunately only one of them is easily fixable

Comparing Green and Mobley actually shows they are fairly similar. I am not going to take this season's sample too seriously since its incredibly small.

In the last two years, Green has shot 1.2 and 1.8 3PA/GM and Mobley has shot 1.3 and 1.3 3PA/GM. Just a difference a difference of 0.2 3PA/GM (or an add'l 16 attempts in a season).

I'll also compare /100 stats because I like them more anyway lol. Green has shot 2.0 and 2.7 3PA/100 and Mobley has shot 2.0 and 1.8 3PA/100. Now a difference of 0.4, but similar % difference.

In the past, Green has shot a lot more (and also has actually had good seasons of efficiency), but I am eluding that I find Mobley's role to be similar to that of the recent role of Green.

Do I think JB is telling him to shoot less threes or that he is less confident? Maybe on both fronts. I assume they are exploring different options for Mobley to provide spacing (which have had varying impacts in this season so far).

Draymond has only shot the 3-ball at a rate worth shooting them once in his career - and dude gets a ton of open looks thanks to defenses collapsing on Steph.

So, you're spot-on to be looking at all the things he does other than actually shoot the 3. Here's hoping TT can pass on some of the little tricks he's learned along the way to help Evan and Jarrett out. There's a "DNA trail" that stretches from Tristan to Andy to Ben Wallace back when he was the team and showed us some of the ways a non-shooting big that defenses would completely ignore could still help on offense.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm more than happy with the level of relevance my comment provides. If you want to make points without demonstrating them, that's always your right. I'll just continues to dismiss them and stick with my own conclusions based on what I've seen.

Lmao the point was about offensive rebounding...........

You bringing up defensive rebounding is wholly irreverent but heck yeah brother, keep fighting the good fight.

Dude are you trying to win points in your own head or something? It's a discussion, at least if you want it to be. Or we can just talk past each other which we've often done. Doesn't matter to me.

Jon, it is not a discussion, man.

JBK and i were talking about Allen and Mobley potentially learning to shoot 3 pointers. Jbk then says he doesn't want them to because it will remove them from offensive rebounding position.

You chime in and say yeah but Mobley and Allen defend out to the 3 point line.

Not trying to be rude but that doesn't track, it's not how conversations work.

What you're trying to discuss has zero to do with Mobley and Allen potentially shooting 3s or not.

You're having an entirely seperate conversation it is completely seperate and independent from Mobley or Allen shooting 3s....

[JonFromVA]

Lmao the point was about offensive rebounding...........

You bringing up defensive rebounding is wholly irreverent but heck yeah brother, keep fighting the good fight.

Dude are you trying to win points in your own head or something? It's a discussion, at least if you want it to be. Or we can just talk past each other which we've often done. Doesn't matter to me.

Jon, it is not a discussion, man.

JBK and i were talking about Allen and Mobley potentially learning to shoot 3 pointers. Jbk then says he doesn't want them to because it will remove them from offensive rebounding position.

You chime in and say yeah but Mobley and Allen defend out to the 3 point line.

Not trying to be rude but that doesn't track, it's not how conversations work.

What you're trying to discuss has zero to do with Mobley and Allen potentially shooting 3s or not.

You're having an entirely seperate conversation it is completely seperate and independent from Mobley or Allen shooting 3s....

You're literally cherry picking one comment in a follow on to another comment I'd made and then trying to tell me how conversations work?

Like I said let's go back to talking past each other.

[JujitsuFlip]

Dude are you trying to win points in your own head or something? It's a discussion, at least if you want it to be. Or we can just talk past each other which we've often done. Doesn't matter to me.

Jon, it is not a discussion, man.

JBK and i were talking about Allen and Mobley potentially learning to shoot 3 pointers. Jbk then says he doesn't want them to because it will remove them from offensive rebounding position.

You chime in and say yeah but Mobley and Allen defend out to the 3 point line.

Not trying to be rude but that doesn't track, it's not how conversations work.

What you're trying to discuss has zero to do with Mobley and Allen potentially shooting 3s or not.

You're having an entirely seperate conversation it is completely seperate and independent from Mobley or Allen shooting 3s....

You're literally cherry picking one comment in a follow on to another comment I'd made and then trying to tell me how conversations work?

Like I said let's go back to talking past each other.

Just trying to help you.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am very okay "talking past" you & tu quemador.

[JujitsuFlip]

This Mexico City game is pretty cool.

[Iwasawitness]

We really haven’t had it easy when it comes to our schedule so far. With that said, if we can manage a win against either GS or Sac before going to Portland (and there is no reason we shouldn’t get a W there), I’ll be satisfied.

[JujitsuFlip]

Watching this Spurs game and wow are their starters long and they're letting it fly.

5: Collins 6'11" with a 7'1" wingspan, 3.9 3FA on 25.8%
4. Wemby 7'4" with a 8'0" wingspan, 5.1 3FA on 29.3%
3. Sochan 6'9" with a 7'0" wingspan, 1.8 3FA on 28.6%
2. Johnson 6'5" with a 6'9" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 34.2%
1. Vassell 6'5" with a 6'10" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 37.9%

They don't start a lead guard but wow they get up and down, 6th highest pace in the league. Those 5 young guys are just out there playing free.

[JonFromVA]

Watching this Spurs game and wow are their starters long and they're letting it fly.

5: Collins 6'11" with a 7'1" wingspan, 3.9 3FA on 25.8%
4. Wemby 7'4" with a 8'0" wingspan, 5.1 3FA on 29.3%
3. Sochan 6'9" with a 7'0" wingspan, 1.8 3FA on 28.6%
2. Johnson 6'5" with a 6'9" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 34.2%
1. Vassell 6'5" with a 6'10" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 37.9%

They don't start a lead guard but wow they get up and down, 6th highest pace in the league. Those 5 young guys are just out there playing free.

So, they're not even starting Tre Jones? Interesting. They're +5.6 with Jones on the floor and +30.8 on-off.

Pretty sound tank strategy.

[ijspeelman]

Watching this Spurs game and wow are their starters long and they're letting it fly.

5: Collins 6'11" with a 7'1" wingspan, 3.9 3FA on 25.8%
4. Wemby 7'4" with a 8'0" wingspan, 5.1 3FA on 29.3%
3. Sochan 6'9" with a 7'0" wingspan, 1.8 3FA on 28.6%
2. Johnson 6'5" with a 6'9" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 34.2%
1. Vassell 6'5" with a 6'10" wingspan, 4.8 3FA on 37.9%

They don't start a lead guard but wow they get up and down, 6th highest pace in the league. Those 5 young guys are just out there playing free.

So, they're not even starting Tre Jones? Interesting. They're +5.6 with Jones on the floor and +30.8 on-off.

Pretty sound tank strategy.

I'd take a Tre Jones on my team as back-up PG. He'd probably act similarly to Rubio with his lacking of spacing

[JujitsuFlip]

Watching this Bucks/Bulls game, Giannis just hit his 500th career 3 pointer, it was so nasty! Fading away, falling out of bounds as the clock hits 0.0 in the 1st quarter.

[JujitsuFlip]

Guess the Cavs got off easy with Draymond after i saw him lock in the headlock on Rudy, lmao.