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[jasonxxx102]

Didn't you just prove him right by providing the list?

I also think it's pretty dubious to call Bam a "role player", and personally I'm not sure what Giannis bricking a bunch of 3's does for Milwaukee's offense. AD cutting back on his 3's sure looks like a good idea to me too.

Evan is fine, Jarrett is fine ... but on the floor at the same time it complicates our offense. Shouldn't matter as long as the net rating is strong, but makes some things other teams do easily harder for us.

Bam is absolutely a role player, he’s not even the best player on his team.

2 out of how many players over the last 10 had top 20 seasons without shooting 3s. Not a single top10 player on that list besides Wade who again is not a good comparison.

It’s not some controversial hot take to say all the best players in the league shoot 3s. Giannis is the only guy who you’d describe as “can’t shoot” but he’s got so much else to offer.

I’m just out here laying out the facts and I guess that hurts the ego of some being wrong. Stats don’t lie. People only resort to ad hominem when they know they’re wrong but are too deep to admit it. Just get louder and angrier until the other person goes away is the strategy and then disappear back into the shadows

If Mobley never develops a 3 he will be an elite role player. It’s ok to say that.

If you applied your facts in a logical and consistent manner, I'd have to agree with you; but you seem to just flip the script to keep arguing what you want to argue and inviting hostile replies.

Here's one fact I'm 100% confident in: Evan Mobley's future is not going to be determined by the past performance of any other player in the league. In other words, this whole train of thought was never heading anywhere.

If the simple statement that not shooting 3s is going to prevent Mobley from becoming a top 15 player incites hostile replies that guy needs therapy and needs to figure out what’s making him so angry that he feels the needs to act like a child

[JujitsuFlip]

Evan is fine, Jarrett is fine ... but on the floor at the same time it complicates our offense. Shouldn't matter as long as the net rating is strong, but makes some things other teams do easily harder for us.

That's a tough one for me, they do work well together BUT is there someone out there that he could work even better with? We may never know.

[Iwasawitness]

Bam is absolutely a role player, he’s not even the best player on his team.

2 out of how many players over the last 10 had top 20 seasons without shooting 3s. Not a single top10 player on that list besides Wade who again is not a good comparison.

It’s not some controversial hot take to say all the best players in the league shoot 3s. Giannis is the only guy who you’d describe as “can’t shoot” but he’s got so much else to offer.

I’m just out here laying out the facts and I guess that hurts the ego of some being wrong. Stats don’t lie. People only resort to ad hominem when they know they’re wrong but are too deep to admit it. Just get louder and angrier until the other person goes away is the strategy and then disappear back into the shadows

If Mobley never develops a 3 he will be an elite role player. It’s ok to say that.

If you applied your facts in a logical and consistent manner, I'd have to agree with you; but you seem to just flip the script to keep arguing what you want to argue and inviting hostile replies.

Here's one fact I'm 100% confident in: Evan Mobley's future is not going to be determined by the past performance of any other player in the league. In other words, this whole train of thought was never heading anywhere.

If the simple statement that not shooting 3s is going to prevent Mobley from becoming a top 15 player incites hostile replies that guy needs therapy and needs to figure out what’s making him so angry that he feels the needs to act like a child

You just continue to prove our points with posts like this.

On top of trying to backtrack and continue to back your really stupid claim, you now bring mental health into it? And you claim I’m acting like a child? Only one making it personal is you. If you can’t handle someone calling your theories dumb, don’t make them. You’ll be doing us all a favor.

Oh and btw, Bam is not a role player. A role player doesn’t average 23/10

[JonFromVA]

Evan is fine, Jarrett is fine ... but on the floor at the same time it complicates our offense. Shouldn't matter as long as the net rating is strong, but makes some things other teams do easily harder for us.

That's a tough one for me, they do work well together BUT is there someone out there that he could work even better with? We may never know.

Well, that's why the pairing of coach, scheme, and players is important. If we do fire JBB, we might decide we have to give up on the unconventional decisions JBB had been supporting. At that point, it might take a house cleaning where we bring in a new FO to execute a strategy to create a new roster which aligns with modern principals and the coach we hire.

If Dan Gilbert starts kicking tires on prospective coaches and discovers that none of them want to inherit this roster; that could be the spark.

[JujitsuFlip]

Evan is fine, Jarrett is fine ... but on the floor at the same time it complicates our offense. Shouldn't matter as long as the net rating is strong, but makes some things other teams do easily harder for us.

That's a tough one for me, they do work well together BUT is there someone out there that he could work even better with? We may never know.

Well, that's why the pairing of coach, scheme, and players is important. If we do fire JBB, we might decide we have to give up on the unconventional decisions JBB had been supporting. At that point, it might take a house cleaning where we bring in a new FO to execute a strategy to create a new roster which aligns with modern principals and the coach we hire.

If Dan Gilbert starts kicking tires on prospective coaches and discovers that none of them want to inherit this roster; that could be the spark.

I honestly don't even know if Dan Gilbert is involved anymore.

[JonFromVA]

That's a tough one for me, they do work well together BUT is there someone out there that he could work even better with? We may never know.

Well, that's why the pairing of coach, scheme, and players is important. If we do fire JBB, we might decide we have to give up on the unconventional decisions JBB had been supporting. At that point, it might take a house cleaning where we bring in a new FO to execute a strategy to create a new roster which aligns with modern principals and the coach we hire.

If Dan Gilbert starts kicking tires on prospective coaches and discovers that none of them want to inherit this roster; that could be the spark.

I honestly don't even know if Dan Gilbert is involved anymore.

We know he's attending games again and he's been out and about making public appearances and making plans to invest billions in to downtown Cleveland; so, even if he's been comfortable with Koby running things - he can change his mind whenever motivated to do so.

[jasonxxx102]

If you applied your facts in a logical and consistent manner, I'd have to agree with you; but you seem to just flip the script to keep arguing what you want to argue and inviting hostile replies.

Here's one fact I'm 100% confident in: Evan Mobley's future is not going to be determined by the past performance of any other player in the league. In other words, this whole train of thought was never heading anywhere.

If the simple statement that not shooting 3s is going to prevent Mobley from becoming a top 15 player incites hostile replies that guy needs therapy and needs to figure out what’s making him so angry that he feels the needs to act like a child

You just continue to prove our points with posts like this.

On top of trying to backtrack and continue to back your really stupid claim, you now bring mental health into it? And you claim I’m acting like a child? Only one making it personal is you. If you can’t handle someone calling your theories dumb, don’t make them. You’ll be doing us all a favor.

Oh and btw, Bam is not a role player. A role player doesn’t average 23/10

Grow up

[jasonxxx102]

Anyways, Mobley has taken quite the leap as a rebounder this season

[jasonxxx102]

I wish there were a better was a better way to embed these plots but this is total offensive load "Total Offensive Load is an estimate of how much a player directly contributes to an individual possession through their shooting, creating, passing, and turning the ball over (while attempting to shoot, create, or pass)."



If this guy is going to be a star player, this needs to change. There needs to be more of an effort to get Evan the ball in good spots and he needs to start trying to create more.

and for comparison here are some of the other players that were mentioned

[ijspeelman]

Lets chill on the back and forth here. Looked like good discussion that was tainted by personal bickering

Feel free to bring back up the discussion if you can refrain from personal remarks

[jasonxxx102]

If you compare other non shooting bigs who you’d consider stars, or top 20 or whatever, you can see year 3 is the turning point.

AD is cut off because the data only goes back so far but his is similar too if you just look at bkref.

The general rule (of course any rule can have exceptions) is that your leap year is 2-3 and if you’re not doing it by year 3, or 4 at the latest, chances are you’re not going to develop it at all.

Next season is pretty much the deciding factor for Evan as to whether he will be just really good or an elite player you can build a team around

[JonFromVA]

It looks to me like Evan's increase in rebounding matches a decrease from Allen, not to mention, Kevin Love (the guy who would rather turn and get a rebound than contest a shot) is no longer with the team. The good news is that our team rebounding has improved with Max, Isaac, and Donovan all contributing more from the wing.

No matter how pretty the chart, "taking a leap" is not about the passing of time.

[jasonxxx102]

It looks to me like Evan's increase in rebounding matches a decrease from Allen, not to mention, Kevin Love (the guy who would rather turn and get a rebound than contest a shot) is no longer with the team. The good news is that our team rebounding has improved with Max, Isaac, and Donovan all contributing more from the wing.

No matter how pretty the chart, "taking a leap" is not about the passing of time.

You can’t just reject the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative. The “Evan will develop at his own pace” thing is just a deflection of reality.

This is across the NBA, across history. The data is clear.

If you think that Evan is going to be the once in a lifetime exception of this rule, you’re probably gonna be wrong. If you wanna die on that hill, fine.

[JonFromVA]

It looks to me like Evan's increase in rebounding matches a decrease from Allen, not to mention, Kevin Love (the guy who would rather turn and get a rebound than contest a shot) is no longer with the team. The good news is that our team rebounding has improved with Max, Isaac, and Donovan all contributing more from the wing.

No matter how pretty the chart, "taking a leap" is not about the passing of time.

You can’t just reject the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative. The “Evan will develop at his own pace” thing is just a deflection of reality.

This is across the NBA, across history. The data is clear.

If you think that Evan is going to be the once in a lifetime exception of this rule, you’re probably gonna be wrong. If you wanna die on that hill, fine.

Actually I can. Maybe you've heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation" before?

Not to mention, population based statistics are best used to analyze populations not individuals. If you want to use those graphs to predict how many 3rd year players will have a breakout season, you're going to have better luck than trying to guess what is or is not holding back Evan specifically from having a breakout.

Fact is Evan is already an outlier in terms of his understanding and ability on defense, literally years ahead of where most 7 footers are at his age.

[jasonxxx102]

It looks to me like Evan's increase in rebounding matches a decrease from Allen, not to mention, Kevin Love (the guy who would rather turn and get a rebound than contest a shot) is no longer with the team. The good news is that our team rebounding has improved with Max, Isaac, and Donovan all contributing more from the wing.

No matter how pretty the chart, "taking a leap" is not about the passing of time.

You can’t just reject the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative. The “Evan will develop at his own pace” thing is just a deflection of reality.

This is across the NBA, across history. The data is clear.

If you think that Evan is going to be the once in a lifetime exception of this rule, you’re probably gonna be wrong. If you wanna die on that hill, fine.

Actually I can. Maybe you've heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation" before?

Not to mention, population based statistics are best used to analyze populations not individuals. If you want to use those graphs to predict how many 3rd year players will have a breakout season, you're going to have better luck than trying to guess what is or is not holding back Evan specifically from having a breakout.

Fact is Evan is already an outlier in terms of his understanding and ability on defense, literally years ahead of where most 7 footers are at his age.

I've mentioned all of the things holding Evan back from being a star. This is just additional data to show that players generally don't develop those skills if they're not already scaling them by year 3, occasionally by year 4.

His shot is flat and his release (as it is today) is too slow and flat to extend out to the 3pt line with consistency.

He's shooting 32/91 from 4ft-3pt line. That's terrible. That's worse than the prior year and the year before that. Across the board offensively he's worse this season

He can't handle the ball in the half court, and has little to not shot creation ability off the dribble (every star player in the modern NBA has this skill, we aren't living in 2005 anymore).

He's already so far behind offensively if you think he can be a 1a/1b type guy.

I'm just going to leave it here because you're dug into a losing position. There's no changing your mind with any amount of context, evidence or data, so you can just believe he's going to be THE outlier. We'll see who's right 2-3 years from now.

[JonFromVA]

You can’t just reject the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative. The “Evan will develop at his own pace” thing is just a deflection of reality.

This is across the NBA, across history. The data is clear.

If you think that Evan is going to be the once in a lifetime exception of this rule, you’re probably gonna be wrong. If you wanna die on that hill, fine.

Actually I can. Maybe you've heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation" before?

Not to mention, population based statistics are best used to analyze populations not individuals. If you want to use those graphs to predict how many 3rd year players will have a breakout season, you're going to have better luck than trying to guess what is or is not holding back Evan specifically from having a breakout.

Fact is Evan is already an outlier in terms of his understanding and ability on defense, literally years ahead of where most 7 footers are at his age.

I've mentioned all of the things holding Evan back from being a star. This is just additional data to show that players generally don't develop those skills if they're not already scaling them by year 3, occasionally by year 4.

His shot is flat and his release (as it is today) is too slow and flat to extend out to the 3pt line with consistency.

He's shooting 32/91 from 4ft-3pt line. That's terrible. That's worse than the prior year and the year before that. Across the board offensively he's worse this season

He can't handle the ball in the half court, and has little to not shot creation ability off the dribble (every star player in the modern NBA has this skill, we aren't living in 2005 anymore).

He's already so far behind offensively if you think he can be a 1a/1b type guy.

I'm just going to leave it here because you're dug into a losing position. There's no changing your mind with any amount of context, evidence or data, so you can just believe he's going to be THE outlier. We'll see who's right 2-3 years from now.

Nah, you got that wrong too. I said Evan already is an outlier.

[jasonxxx102]

Actually I can. Maybe you've heard the phrase "correlation does not imply causation" before?

Not to mention, population based statistics are best used to analyze populations not individuals. If you want to use those graphs to predict how many 3rd year players will have a breakout season, you're going to have better luck than trying to guess what is or is not holding back Evan specifically from having a breakout.

Fact is Evan is already an outlier in terms of his understanding and ability on defense, literally years ahead of where most 7 footers are at his age.

I've mentioned all of the things holding Evan back from being a star. This is just additional data to show that players generally don't develop those skills if they're not already scaling them by year 3, occasionally by year 4.

His shot is flat and his release (as it is today) is too slow and flat to extend out to the 3pt line with consistency.

He's shooting 32/91 from 4ft-3pt line. That's terrible. That's worse than the prior year and the year before that. Across the board offensively he's worse this season

He can't handle the ball in the half court, and has little to not shot creation ability off the dribble (every star player in the modern NBA has this skill, we aren't living in 2005 anymore).

He's already so far behind offensively if you think he can be a 1a/1b type guy.

I'm just going to leave it here because you're dug into a losing position. There's no changing your mind with any amount of context, evidence or data, so you can just believe he's going to be THE outlier. We'll see who's right 2-3 years from now.

Nah, you got that wrong too. I said Evan already is an outlier.

This just made me laugh I can’t ignore it. We’ve been talking about offense this entire time and apparently you just totally missed the bus

[JonFromVA]

I've mentioned all of the things holding Evan back from being a star. This is just additional data to show that players generally don't develop those skills if they're not already scaling them by year 3, occasionally by year 4.

His shot is flat and his release (as it is today) is too slow and flat to extend out to the 3pt line with consistency.

He's shooting 32/91 from 4ft-3pt line. That's terrible. That's worse than the prior year and the year before that. Across the board offensively he's worse this season

He can't handle the ball in the half court, and has little to not shot creation ability off the dribble (every star player in the modern NBA has this skill, we aren't living in 2005 anymore).

He's already so far behind offensively if you think he can be a 1a/1b type guy.

I'm just going to leave it here because you're dug into a losing position. There's no changing your mind with any amount of context, evidence or data, so you can just believe he's going to be THE outlier. We'll see who's right 2-3 years from now.

Nah, you got that wrong too. I said Evan already is an outlier.

This just made me laugh I can’t ignore it. We’ve been talking about offense this entire time and apparently you just totally missed the bus

No, we were arguing about how rare it is for a player to be an outlier, and I pointed out Evan already is one.

You've earned a triple eye roll, though. Congrats.

[jasonxxx102]

Nah, you got that wrong too. I said Evan already is an outlier.

This just made me laugh I can’t ignore it. We’ve been talking about offense this entire time and apparently you just totally missed the bus

No, we were arguing about how rare it is for a player to be an outlier, and I pointed out Evan already is one.

You've earned a triple eye roll, though. Congrats.

Lmao ok dude

[JujitsuFlip]

Probably be one of the last times i do this because speelman's legwork already proved my point without a shadow of doubt.

But please see the team representing the East for the in-season tournament, played 10 guyd 10+ minutes.