Stillwater's monster draft thread (consolidated)

[Stillwater]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2019/04/12/nba-draft-lottery-final-odds-suns-cavaliers-knicks-2019-nba-draft/3449947002/
Cavs got the #2

[Stillwater]

So with the top 6 locked up
1 Zion
2 Ja or Barrett
3 Barrett
4 Bol, Culver or Hayes seems probable
5-6 are dicey but depending on who falls,
here are some alternatives that could prove to be better pros long term and worth the gamble at 5 or 6:
Deandre Hunter
Kevin Porter
Coby White
Tyler Herro
Darius Garland
Rui Hachimura
Kezie Okpala

sleepers/ boom bust options for the top 6 : Sekou Doumbouya,Nassir Little and Neemias Queta

high floor options at 6:
Brandon Clarke
Nickeil Alexander-Walker
PJ Washington
Goga Bitadaze
Grant Williams

highest bust possible prospects that remain potential lottery targets for several reasons, but too risky to go for in the top 6 imo:
Reddish
Langford
Reid
Dort

[Stillwater]

So I'm board and here is another pre lottery draw full mock with several 2nd rounders that could jump into the late first after the combine etc. With all the prospects that are declaring this year there is bound to be quite a few that go back to school and most of the frosh I have in the 2nd will or should return.https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/573103/

[Stillwater]

Couple of sleepers that would be solid fits on the current roster & have decent upside but are not commonly considered upper lottery prospects, (this applies only in the situation Cavs are pushed down to 6th though) .
I think these prospects are less risky than assumed & maybe better pro prospects than a few slotted in the 6-10 range of most big boards:
Keldon Johnson
Talen Horton-Tucker
Kevin Porter
Tyler Herro
N.Alexander-Walker
K.Okpala
Daniel Gafford
---
Also I think Sekou & Nas Little if available should be serious considerations for this roster as options at 6 maybe even at 5 based on ridiculous athleticism and upside despite raw

[JonFromVA]

I remember back in the day, John Hollinger had a college player rater that went wild over Tristan Thompson leading him to explain that the rater didn't much care about the primary box score stats, but really liked things like offensive rebounds, foul shot attempts, steals, blocks, etc.

The biggest problem in the NCAA is the inconsistent level of competition.

So, for instance a player like Cam Reddish looks pretty bad in the stats, but Duke had a very strong schedule, and Reddish was asked to do more than he probably should have been doing given his numbers, but less than he would have been asked to do on another team as its #1 or #2 option.

It's not easy to sort out.

So as an example, UNC and Duke played each other 3x ... Coby White and Cam played in all 3 games, and both were freshman.

Coby had one noteworthy game, shooting 8 for 18, but 4 for 8 on his 3's for 21pts

Cam also had just one noteworthy game, shooting 10 for 23, but 6 for 11 on his 3's for 27pts.

On top of that, Coby's top teammates were polished Seniors, while Cam's were highly touted Freshman.

It's not easy to sort this stuff out. Hopefully these guys who aren't already slotted will work out against each other and their talent level will become apparent. Alas, evaluating character and drive to improve can be tricky.

[Stillwater]

I remember back in the day, John Hollinger had a college player rater that went wild over Tristan Thompson leading him to explain that the rater didn't much care about the primary box score stats, but really liked things like offensive rebounds, foul shot attempts, steals, blocks, etc.

The biggest problem in the NCAA is the inconsistent level of competition.

So, for instance a player like Cam Reddish looks pretty bad in the stats, but Duke had a very strong schedule, and Reddish was asked to do more than he probably should have been doing given his numbers, but less than he would have been asked to do on another team as its #1 or #2 option.

It's not easy to sort out.

So as an example, UNC and Duke played each other 3x ... Coby White and Cam played in all 3 games, and both were freshman.

Coby had one noteworthy game, shooting 8 for 18, but 4 for 8 on his 3's for 21pts

Cam also had just one noteworthy game, shooting 10 for 23, but 6 for 11 on his 3's for 27pts.

On top of that, Coby's top teammates were polished Seniors, while Cam's were highly touted Freshman.

It's not easy to sort this stuff out. Hopefully these guys who aren't already slotted will work out against each other and their talent level will become apparent. Alas, evaluating character and drive to improve can be tricky.

Yeah I get your point... but to me Reddish had ample opportunities and his biggest red flag imo is not being able to finish through trafiic. He lacks explosiveness to compensate for his lack of moves attacking the basket. So yes he can develop his moves and become more efficient,but having neither the moves nor the explosiveness to carry him until he gets the moves makes him a lower tier prospect and to pile on,he seems to lack the drive to get better that would be necessary to bet on him even reaching his potential which by all accounts seems much less impressive than others that will be available 2-6.
I would take a flier on him mid first aka 12-20 to become a solid defender that can catch and shoot with longterm ability to create more and maybe carve a starting role for himself. I would not bet on him becoming a dominating player,despite the tools and measurements because of the meh work ethic and more importantly the lack of elite athleticism

[JonFromVA]

I remember back in the day, John Hollinger had a college player rater that went wild over Tristan Thompson leading him to explain that the rater didn't much care about the primary box score stats, but really liked things like offensive rebounds, foul shot attempts, steals, blocks, etc.

The biggest problem in the NCAA is the inconsistent level of competition.

So, for instance a player like Cam Reddish looks pretty bad in the stats, but Duke had a very strong schedule, and Reddish was asked to do more than he probably should have been doing given his numbers, but less than he would have been asked to do on another team as its #1 or #2 option.

It's not easy to sort out.

So as an example, UNC and Duke played each other 3x ... Coby White and Cam played in all 3 games, and both were freshman.

Coby had one noteworthy game, shooting 8 for 18, but 4 for 8 on his 3's for 21pts

Cam also had just one noteworthy game, shooting 10 for 23, but 6 for 11 on his 3's for 27pts.

On top of that, Coby's top teammates were polished Seniors, while Cam's were highly touted Freshman.

It's not easy to sort this stuff out. Hopefully these guys who aren't already slotted will work out against each other and their talent level will become apparent. Alas, evaluating character and drive to improve can be tricky.

Yeah I get your point... but to me Reddish had ample opportunities and his biggest red flag imo is not being able to finish through trafiic. He lacks explosiveness to compensate for his lack of moves attacking the basket. So yes he can develop his moves and become more efficient,but having neither the moves nor the explosiveness to carry him until he gets the moves makes him a lower tier prospect and to pile on,he seems to lack the drive to get better that would be necessary to bet on him even reaching his potential which by all accounts seems much less impressive than others that will be available 2-6.
I would take a flier on him mid first aka 12-20 to become a solid defender that can catch and shoot with longterm ability to create more and maybe carve a starting role for himself. I would not bet on him becoming a dominating player,despite the tools and measurements because of the meh work ethic and more importantly the lack of elite athleticism

A lot of questions would be answered if Cam would just stay another year and get his chance to be featured with a more seasoned Tre Jones, but somehow people are going to have to make up their minds without that information. Maybe they'd even run Coach K's offense?

I mean ... what if Ja Morant had entered the NBA draft as a freshman?

I've looked for a draft profile on him. All I could find was that nbadraft.net added a blank page for him in August 2018.

I found an article that referred to him as one of the country's 20 best PGs heading in to the '18/'19 season.

Top 20 to top 1 over the course of a year?

That's the kind of stuff that worries me, especially as we compare Barrett (a freshman) to Morant (a sophomore). The difference in age and level of competition is huge. Didn't Ja have the same elite speed and court vision as a freshman? Or even in high-school? Going from un-ranked HS prospect, to off-the-radar NCAA freshman, to likely #2 pick in the draft in the span of 2 years is mind blowing.

Of course we prefer positive evidence over negative evidence. Knowing what Ja has done as a Sophomore is more valuable than guessing what RJ or Cam might do; but it's simply not an apples to apples comparison unless we rewind Ja back a year and then do who knows what with the level of competition issue.

Yuck....

[Stillwater]

I remember back in the day, John Hollinger had a college player rater that went wild over Tristan Thompson leading him to explain that the rater didn't much care about the primary box score stats, but really liked things like offensive rebounds, foul shot attempts, steals, blocks, etc.

The biggest problem in the NCAA is the inconsistent level of competition.

So, for instance a player like Cam Reddish looks pretty bad in the stats, but Duke had a very strong schedule, and Reddish was asked to do more than he probably should have been doing given his numbers, but less than he would have been asked to do on another team as its #1 or #2 option.

It's not easy to sort out.

So as an example, UNC and Duke played each other 3x ... Coby White and Cam played in all 3 games, and both were freshman.

Coby had one noteworthy game, shooting 8 for 18, but 4 for 8 on his 3's for 21pts

Cam also had just one noteworthy game, shooting 10 for 23, but 6 for 11 on his 3's for 27pts.

On top of that, Coby's top teammates were polished Seniors, while Cam's were highly touted Freshman.

It's not easy to sort this stuff out. Hopefully these guys who aren't already slotted will work out against each other and their talent level will become apparent. Alas, evaluating character and drive to improve can be tricky.

Yeah I get your point... but to me Reddish had ample opportunities and his biggest red flag imo is not being able to finish through trafiic. He lacks explosiveness to compensate for his lack of moves attacking the basket. So yes he can develop his moves and become more efficient,but having neither the moves nor the explosiveness to carry him until he gets the moves makes him a lower tier prospect and to pile on,he seems to lack the drive to get better that would be necessary to bet on him even reaching his potential which by all accounts seems much less impressive than others that will be available 2-6.
I would take a flier on him mid first aka 12-20 to become a solid defender that can catch and shoot with longterm ability to create more and maybe carve a starting role for himself. I would not bet on him becoming a dominating player,despite the tools and measurements because of the meh work ethic and more importantly the lack of elite athleticism

A lot of questions would be answered if Cam would just stay another year and get his chance to be featured with a more seasoned Tre Jones, but somehow people are going to have to make up their minds without that information. Maybe they'd even run Coach K's offense?

I mean ... what if Ja Morant had entered the NBA draft as a freshman?

I've looked for a draft profile on him. All I could find was that nbadraft.net added a blank page for him in August 2018.

I found an article that referred to him as one of the country's 20 best PGs heading in to the '18/'19 season.

Top 20 to top 1 over the course of a year?

That's the kind of stuff that worries me, especially as we compare Barrett (a freshman) to Morant (a sophomore). The difference in age and level of competition is huge. Didn't Ja have the same elite speed and court vision as a freshman? Or even in high-school? Going from un-ranked HS prospect, to off-the-radar NCAA freshman, to likely #2 pick in the draft in the span of 2 years is mind blowing.

Of course we prefer positive evidence over negative evidence. Knowing what Ja has done as a Sophomore is more valuable than guessing what RJ or Cam might do; but it's simply not an apples to apples comparison unless we rewind Ja back a year and then do who knows what with the level of competition issue.

Yuck....

Morant broke out as a freshman almost as soon as he got to campus. He just didn't declare until this year and confirmed his abilty with another impressive season and this time got a chance to prove himself against a couple bigger conference schools where there was no drop off in his production. Reddish did not have a breakout season and is the exact opposite of an underrecruited Ja Morant, as reddish almost completely killed his stock at Duke despite being a 5 star recruit. Reddish struggled with finishing against HS teams and confirmed that fear by becoming invisible in that dept at the college level... what do you think will happen when he is a pro? I don't think anything he could have done at Duke as a sophomore would have improved his stock but in fact probably proved he was completely overrated. I mean having 2 high recruits on the same team constantly drawing double teams gave him more chances to boost stock but instead it was the contrary.

Reddish does have some intriguing skills that made him a 5 star recruit , but betting on those things coming to fruition after his epic fail in college make him a huge risk anywhere in the top 10

I mean Barret was overrated as well, but at least he's got some dog in him and brings it every night

[JonFromVA]

Yeah I get your point... but to me Reddish had ample opportunities and his biggest red flag imo is not being able to finish through trafiic. He lacks explosiveness to compensate for his lack of moves attacking the basket. So yes he can develop his moves and become more efficient,but having neither the moves nor the explosiveness to carry him until he gets the moves makes him a lower tier prospect and to pile on,he seems to lack the drive to get better that would be necessary to bet on him even reaching his potential which by all accounts seems much less impressive than others that will be available 2-6.
I would take a flier on him mid first aka 12-20 to become a solid defender that can catch and shoot with longterm ability to create more and maybe carve a starting role for himself. I would not bet on him becoming a dominating player,despite the tools and measurements because of the meh work ethic and more importantly the lack of elite athleticism

A lot of questions would be answered if Cam would just stay another year and get his chance to be featured with a more seasoned Tre Jones, but somehow people are going to have to make up their minds without that information. Maybe they'd even run Coach K's offense?

I mean ... what if Ja Morant had entered the NBA draft as a freshman?

I've looked for a draft profile on him. All I could find was that nbadraft.net added a blank page for him in August 2018.

I found an article that referred to him as one of the country's 20 best PGs heading in to the '18/'19 season.

Top 20 to top 1 over the course of a year?

That's the kind of stuff that worries me, especially as we compare Barrett (a freshman) to Morant (a sophomore). The difference in age and level of competition is huge. Didn't Ja have the same elite speed and court vision as a freshman? Or even in high-school? Going from un-ranked HS prospect, to off-the-radar NCAA freshman, to likely #2 pick in the draft in the span of 2 years is mind blowing.

Of course we prefer positive evidence over negative evidence. Knowing what Ja has done as a Sophomore is more valuable than guessing what RJ or Cam might do; but it's simply not an apples to apples comparison unless we rewind Ja back a year and then do who knows what with the level of competition issue.

Yuck....

Morant broke out as a freshman almost as soon as he got to campus. He just didn't declare until this year and confirmed his abilty with another impressive season and this time got a chance to prove himself against a couple bigger conference schools where there was no drop off in his production. Reddish did not have a breakout season and is the exact opposite of an underrecruited Ja Morant, as reddish almost completely killed his stock at Duke despite being a 5 star recruit. Reddish struggled with finishing against HS teams and confirmed that fear by becoming invisible in that dept at the college level... what do you think will happen when he is a pro? I don't think anything he could have done at Duke as a sophomore would have improved his stock but in fact probably proved he was completely overrated. I mean having 2 high recruits on the same team constantly drawing double teams gave him more chances to boost stock but instead it was the contrary.

Reddish does have some intriguing skills that made him a 5 star recruit , but betting on those things coming to fruition after his epic fail in college make him a huge risk anywhere in the top 10

I mean Barret was overrated as well, but at least he's got some dog in him and brings it every night

Oh? Do what I did and try to find an article about Morant from around this time last year (or before) talking about him as a top prospect. 12.7 & 6.3 at Murray State doesn't seem to generate a lot of buzz.

btw, I don't presume to have a crystal ball. The most likely outcome for any player is that their weaknesses will convey to the next level, not their strengths. So, the fewer weaknesses the better. But I do think there are some extenuating circumstances in Cam's case due to the hype, lack of experience on Duke, the strength of Duke's schedule, etc. It just wouldn't surprise me if everything was easier for him if he was playing against Murray State's level of competition night in and night out.

[Stillwater]

Ja is legit, regardless of conference, and if it matters he absolutely dominated in that weaker conference and dominated in the tournament on a bad team etc. His skill set is far more likely to transfer with a little drop off, whereas Reddish's ability to excel in the NBA ignoring his failures in college as if that were possible still is less likely.
I don't get the reasoning for thinking somehow he was afforded less opportunity at Duke, when Ja had everything to prove and overachieved where Reddish just had to execute what was expected from him and did nothing close to what was expected.

[JonFromVA]

Ja is legit, regardless of conference, and if it matters he absolutely dominated in that weaker conference and dominated in the tournament on a bad team etc. His skill set is far more likely to transfer with a little drop off, whereas Reddish's ability to excel in the NBA ignoring his failures in college as if that were possible still is less likely.

Yes, Ja was impressive as a Sophomore, but I'd still point out his competition was pretty weak compared to Duke's. He had a good game against Auburn, an impressive game against Marquette, and a high-volume but inefficient game against Florida State (surprisingly struggled more on his 2pt shots 3-15 than his 3pt shots 5-6).

But we can''t know what Cam or RJ would do as a Sophomore, so we can't directly compare.

Ja's speed and quickness and court vision should convey, so I'll grant you that gives him an advantage; but he's going to need the ball in his hands and his struggles will be his team's struggles far more than a player who can play off the ball or can contribute in other ways.

I don't get the reasoning for thinking somehow he was afforded less opportunity at Duke, when Ja had everything to prove and overachieved where Reddish just had to execute what was expected from him and did nothing close to what was expected.

I have no clue what would have been the best situation for Cam, but while he's still probably going in the lottery I'm not sure it was Duke where he was used as a 3pt floor spacer. He was used to be being "the man" in high-school and perhaps would have thrived on a lower profile team in that role in the NCAA. Or perhaps he would have been better served on a more experienced and deeper team that would have asked him to earn minutes - meaning in the long-term, because such a situation may have left him completely off the NBA radar as a freshman.

But regardless, one thing that gets lost looking at Cam's overall stats is that his entire season was not inefficient crap. He was wildly inconsistent with a number of very impressive games and a number of games he could barely make a shot.

So for instance, he had 8 games of 20pts or more including against top teams like Florida State, UNC, and Kentucky.

Ja as a freshman had only one 20+ game, and it was against Southeast Missouri State (he was being overshadowed by a 4 year player named Jonathan Stark who went undrafted and is currently playing in the NBADL). As a Sophomore, otoh, he put up 26 20+ games, but the only top competition was against Florida State and Auburn.

I'm not trying to claim Cam's going to be great or Ja will in over his head, just pointing out that experience and level of competition is super important when comparing prospects.

[Stillwater]

Ja is legit, regardless of conference, and if it matters he absolutely dominated in that weaker conference and dominated in the tournament on a bad team etc. His skill set is far more likely to transfer with a little drop off, whereas Reddish's ability to excel in the NBA ignoring his failures in college as if that were possible still is less likely.

Yes, Ja was impressive as a Sophomore, but I'd still point out his competition was pretty weak compared to Duke's. He had a good game against Auburn, an impressive game against Marquette, and a high-volume but inefficient game against Florida State (surprisingly struggled more on his 2pt shots 3-15 than his 3pt shots 5-6).

But we can''t know what Cam or RJ would do as a Sophomore, so we can't directly compare.

Ja's speed and quickness and court vision should convey, so I'll grant you that gives him an advantage; but he's going to need the ball in his hands and his struggles will be his team's struggles far more than a player who can play off the ball or can contribute in other ways.

I don't get the reasoning for thinking somehow he was afforded less opportunity at Duke, when Ja had everything to prove and overachieved where Reddish just had to execute what was expected from him and did nothing close to what was expected.

I have no clue what would have been the best situation for Cam, but while he's still probably going in the lottery I'm not sure it was Duke where he was used as a 3pt floor spacer. He was used to be being "the man" in high-school and perhaps would have thrived on a lower profile team in that role in the NCAA. Or perhaps he would have been better served on a more experienced and deeper team that would have asked him to earn minutes - meaning in the long-term, because such a situation may have left him completely off the NBA radar as a freshman.

But regardless, one thing that gets lost looking at Cam's overall stats is that his entire season was not inefficient crap. He was wildly inconsistent with a number of very impressive games and a number of games he could barely make a shot.

So for instance, he had 8 games of 20pts or more including against top teams like Florida State, UNC, and Kentucky.

Ja as a freshman had only one 20+ game, and it was against Southeast Missouri State (he was being overshadowed by a 4 year player named Jonathan Stark who went undrafted and is currently playing in the NBADL). As a Sophomore, otoh, he put up 26 20+ games, but the only top competition was against Florida State and Auburn.

I'm not trying to claim Cam's going to be great or Ja will in over his head, just pointing out that experience and level of competition is super important when comparing prospects.

Yeah I do also weigh in level of competition as a key factor when comes to inflated stats regarding Ja Morant...but to me the entire package he brings is obvious and level of competition didn't phase him in the tournament. It did however impact his teammates some impacting some of his stats.
Reddish could have padded stats in a featured role on a bad team as a higher usage higher volume player, I'll give you that, but it isn't his stats that concern me at all...it's his lack of finishing ability ,and despite showing creation baseline tools in HS was incapable of doing so at Duke against the competition he faced which yes was better than mid majors, but certainly not the level he will face in the pros and the lack of that skill transferring is concerning.
I do think IF Reddish was simply a victim of being passive by nature as the root of his problems at Duke , than he could still become a decent 3/D rotation player with more motivation if given the right situation that doesn't need him to create much offense, attack the basket , or improvise ... those types of prospects are usually picked late 1st early second on a flier , not taken in the lottery.

[JonFromVA]

Ja is legit, regardless of conference, and if it matters he absolutely dominated in that weaker conference and dominated in the tournament on a bad team etc. His skill set is far more likely to transfer with a little drop off, whereas Reddish's ability to excel in the NBA ignoring his failures in college as if that were possible still is less likely.

Yes, Ja was impressive as a Sophomore, but I'd still point out his competition was pretty weak compared to Duke's. He had a good game against Auburn, an impressive game against Marquette, and a high-volume but inefficient game against Florida State (surprisingly struggled more on his 2pt shots 3-15 than his 3pt shots 5-6).

But we can''t know what Cam or RJ would do as a Sophomore, so we can't directly compare.

Ja's speed and quickness and court vision should convey, so I'll grant you that gives him an advantage; but he's going to need the ball in his hands and his struggles will be his team's struggles far more than a player who can play off the ball or can contribute in other ways.

I don't get the reasoning for thinking somehow he was afforded less opportunity at Duke, when Ja had everything to prove and overachieved where Reddish just had to execute what was expected from him and did nothing close to what was expected.

I have no clue what would have been the best situation for Cam, but while he's still probably going in the lottery I'm not sure it was Duke where he was used as a 3pt floor spacer. He was used to be being "the man" in high-school and perhaps would have thrived on a lower profile team in that role in the NCAA. Or perhaps he would have been better served on a more experienced and deeper team that would have asked him to earn minutes - meaning in the long-term, because such a situation may have left him completely off the NBA radar as a freshman.

But regardless, one thing that gets lost looking at Cam's overall stats is that his entire season was not inefficient crap. He was wildly inconsistent with a number of very impressive games and a number of games he could barely make a shot.

So for instance, he had 8 games of 20pts or more including against top teams like Florida State, UNC, and Kentucky.

Ja as a freshman had only one 20+ game, and it was against Southeast Missouri State (he was being overshadowed by a 4 year player named Jonathan Stark who went undrafted and is currently playing in the NBADL). As a Sophomore, otoh, he put up 26 20+ games, but the only top competition was against Florida State and Auburn.

I'm not trying to claim Cam's going to be great or Ja will in over his head, just pointing out that experience and level of competition is super important when comparing prospects.

Yeah I do also weigh in level of competition as a key factor when comes to inflated stats regarding Ja Morant...but to me the entire package he brings is obvious and level of competition didn't phase him in the tournament. It did however impact his teammates some impacting some of his stats.
Reddish could have padded stats in a featured role on a bad team as a higher usage higher volume player, I'll give you that, but it isn't his stats that concern me at all...it's his lack of finishing ability ,and despite showing creation baseline tools in HS was incapable of doing so at Duke against the competition he faced which yes was better than mid majors, but certainly not the level he will face in the pros and the lack of that skill transferring is concerning.
I do think IF Reddish was simply a victim of being passive by nature as the root of his problems at Duke , than he could still become a decent 3/D rotation player with more motivation if given the right situation that doesn't need him to create much offense, attack the basket , or improvise ... those types of prospects are usually picked late 1st early second on a flier , not taken in the lottery.

I'll just add that level of competition can be the difference between a good finisher and a terrible one.

For instance, Collin was an effective finisher at Alabama, able to finish through contact AND draw fouls; but he really struggled at the next level in the NBA. Somewhere around the All-Star break, he started to figure out how to finish around the rim more effectively (almost the equivalent of two college seasons worth of games!).

[Stillwater]

^ If the Cavs are at 5 or 6 I'm sure they will bring him in for workouts etc ...and if they think the upside is attainable than so be it.
If nothing else it will keep them in the lottery again next season where they keep the pick.
I would take 10 prospects before Reddish myself and even then would be very concerned about his work ethic

[wesleyt95]

What do you guys think of this: 3 team trade

CLE out KLove, 26th pick
CLE in Dario Saric, 10th pick, Evan Turner, M Leonard

MIN out Saric, 10th pick
Min in Anfernee Simons, 26th pick, future pick

POR out Evan Turner, Anfernee Simons, M Leonard
POR in Kevin Love

[Stillwater]

What do you guys think of this: 3 team trade

CLE out KLove, 26th pick
CLE in Dario Saric, 10th pick, Evan Turner, M Leonard

MIN out Saric, 10th pick
Min in Anfernee Simons, 26th pick, future pick

POR out Evan Turner, Anfernee Simons, M Leonard
POR in Kevin Love

Contrary to what people expect, Love isn't available...unless the offer is legit which this isn't.
It's not terrible but I'd think they'd rather keep their all-star than eat Turner and Leonard to get a 4th tier rookie role player at 10 or a high upside project with no contribution to winning for 3 years of his rookie deal. even with the starter level impact of saric included

[JonFromVA]

What do you guys think of this: 3 team trade

CLE out KLove, 26th pick
CLE in Dario Saric, 10th pick, Evan Turner, M Leonard

MIN out Saric, 10th pick
Min in Anfernee Simons, 26th pick, future pick

POR out Evan Turner, Anfernee Simons, M Leonard
POR in Kevin Love

Contrary to what people expect, Love isn't available...unless the offer is legit which this isn't.
It's not terrible but I'd think they'd rather keep their all-star than eat Turner and Leonard to get a 4th tier rookie role player at 10 or a high upside project with no contribution to winning for 3 years of his rookie deal. even with the starter level impact of saric included

Turner is owed $18M then expires, Leonard is owed $11M then expires. Saric will be a free-agent in a year. It's not a bad trade at all if Kevin wanted to move on to a contender and go home and/or the Cavs wanted to get out from under his contract, AND the Cavs actually liked someone at 10.

Way too many if's ... but what does Minnesota get out of this? Are you that high on Anfernee Simons? Why not just keep Saric and the 10th? Nice deal for Portland unless we really think a 37pt game by Simons in a throw-away game 82 tells us something. In that case, I'd think the Cavs would be targeting him. lol

Actually, if the Cavs wanted to swap happy stories with Portland, they'd be asking for Canton Ohio native CJ McCollum.

[Stillwater]

What do you guys think of this: 3 team trade

CLE out KLove, 26th pick
CLE in Dario Saric, 10th pick, Evan Turner, M Leonard

MIN out Saric, 10th pick
Min in Anfernee Simons, 26th pick, future pick

POR out Evan Turner, Anfernee Simons, M Leonard
POR in Kevin Love

Contrary to what people expect, Love isn't available...unless the offer is legit which this isn't.
It's not terrible but I'd think they'd rather keep their all-star than eat Turner and Leonard to get a 4th tier rookie role player at 10 or a high upside project with no contribution to winning for 3 years of his rookie deal. even with the starter level impact of saric included

Turner is owed $18M then expires, Leonard is owed $11M then expires. Saric will be a free-agent in a year. It's not a bad trade at all if Kevin wanted to move on to a contender and go home and/or the Cavs wanted to get out from under his contract, AND the Cavs actually liked someone at 10.

Way too many if's ... but what does Minnesota get out of this? Are you that high on Anfernee Simons? Why not just keep Saric and the 10th? Nice deal for Portland unless we really think a 37pt game by Simons in a throw-away game 82 tells us something. In that case, I'd think the Cavs would be targeting him. lol

Actually, if the Cavs wanted to swap happy stories with Portland, they'd be asking for Canton Ohio native CJ McCollum.

If all they want to do is get out of his contract...then they never would have gave him that contract. makes no sense to trade him for expirings and a young player who looks to get paid next summer to get a meh late lottery pick.
Sure if a tier 2 prospect was sitting there at 10 they are high on and they suddenly get hate from Loves camp and that he wants out, Otherwise no chance this gets done. I could see the Cavs shopping him next summer if they draft ZIon aside from that I think he retires a Cav

[JonFromVA]

Contrary to what people expect, Love isn't available...unless the offer is legit which this isn't.
It's not terrible but I'd think they'd rather keep their all-star than eat Turner and Leonard to get a 4th tier rookie role player at 10 or a high upside project with no contribution to winning for 3 years of his rookie deal. even with the starter level impact of saric included

Turner is owed $18M then expires, Leonard is owed $11M then expires. Saric will be a free-agent in a year. It's not a bad trade at all if Kevin wanted to move on to a contender and go home and/or the Cavs wanted to get out from under his contract, AND the Cavs actually liked someone at 10.

Way too many if's ... but what does Minnesota get out of this? Are you that high on Anfernee Simons? Why not just keep Saric and the 10th? Nice deal for Portland unless we really think a 37pt game by Simons in a throw-away game 82 tells us something. In that case, I'd think the Cavs would be targeting him. lol

Actually, if the Cavs wanted to swap happy stories with Portland, they'd be asking for Canton Ohio native CJ McCollum.

If all they want to do is get out of his contract...then they never would have gave him that contract. makes no sense to trade him for expirings and a young player who looks to get paid next summer to get a meh late lottery pick.
Sure if a tier 2 prospect was sitting there at 10 they are high on and they suddenly get hate from Loves camp and that he wants out, Otherwise no chance this gets done. I could see the Cavs shopping him next summer if they draft ZIon aside from that I think he retires a Cav

Oh, it's not hard to justify paying Kevin all that money. Part of it was that we had to pay someone, part of it was retaining him as an asset to either play or trade, and part of it may have been thumbing our nose at the world that thinks we can't have nice things.

The thing is, there was an understanding before he got hurt that the Cavs were going to try to win games, not tank to prevent our pick from going to Atlanta. So, since then, things have changed. A number of vets have already been traded and Channing retired. If Kevin wants to move on, I'm sure we'll accommodate him for a reasonable deal.

And the proposed deal may not be the best we could do, but it's not unreasonable.

[Stillwater]

Turner is owed $18M then expires, Leonard is owed $11M then expires. Saric will be a free-agent in a year. It's not a bad trade at all if Kevin wanted to move on to a contender and go home and/or the Cavs wanted to get out from under his contract, AND the Cavs actually liked someone at 10.

Way too many if's ... but what does Minnesota get out of this? Are you that high on Anfernee Simons? Why not just keep Saric and the 10th? Nice deal for Portland unless we really think a 37pt game by Simons in a throw-away game 82 tells us something. In that case, I'd think the Cavs would be targeting him. lol

Actually, if the Cavs wanted to swap happy stories with Portland, they'd be asking for Canton Ohio native CJ McCollum.

If all they want to do is get out of his contract...then they never would have gave him that contract. makes no sense to trade him for expirings and a young player who looks to get paid next summer to get a meh late lottery pick.
Sure if a tier 2 prospect was sitting there at 10 they are high on and they suddenly get hate from Loves camp and that he wants out, Otherwise no chance this gets done. I could see the Cavs shopping him next summer if they draft ZIon aside from that I think he retires a Cav

Oh, it's not hard to justify paying Kevin all that money. Part of it was that we had to pay someone, part of it was retaining him as an asset to either play or trade, and part of it may have been thumbing our nose at the world that thinks we can't have nice things.

The thing is, there was an understanding before he got hurt that the Cavs were going to try to win games, not tank to prevent our pick from going to Atlanta. So, since then, things have changed. A number of vets have already been traded and Channing retired. If Kevin wants to move on, I'm sure we'll accommodate him for a reasonable deal.

And the proposed deal may not be the best we could do, but it's not unreasonable.

Love has not publicly indicated anything short of full committment to the Cavs going foward to my knowledge esp considering it was his injury that shifted the gears to tank mode/ development mode.
He could get moved at the deadline durring the season if that tone changes esp if they draft a scrub like reddish and expect to win because of it... I have faith in this org not being stupid in the draft process going forward and they will do as much as they can to continue to add assets by taking on bad contracts etc. Moving Love makes no sense as long as he contributes to winning