Will they resign sexton?

[jbk1234]

It might had helped if Collin was with the team even more than he was, but I wonder if sitting out most of the season and watching the team operate with DG, Rubio and Rondo will help him understand the kinds of things he needs to add to his game?

Of course seeing and doing are not the same thing... but experience and knowing what everyone is doing on the floor can help make up for less than stellar court vision and floor awareness.

For me, personally, I'm taking a what you see is what you get approach to him on the contract offer. Any *growth* after it's signed is gravy. I would not expect him to all of a sudden develop good floor vision or slow his game down, at the cost of his own ppg, in order to see the floor better. I would not expect him to ever get to replacement level on the defensive side of the floor. If he wants a shorter deal from the Cavs so he can prove he can do those things, and get paid large on his next deal, that's fine by me as well.

[jbk1234]

Looks like the Knicks are out on Sexton, which is not surprising given their cap situation.

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=PfBxSGpNNPstcSZrMiXx5g

[JonFromVA]

It might had helped if Collin was with the team even more than he was, but I wonder if sitting out most of the season and watching the team operate with DG, Rubio and Rondo will help him understand the kinds of things he needs to add to his game?

Of course seeing and doing are not the same thing... but experience and knowing what everyone is doing on the floor can help make up for less than stellar court vision and floor awareness.

For me, personally, I'm taking a what you see is what you get approach to him on the contract offer. Any *growth* after it's signed is gravy. I would not expect him to all of a sudden develop good floor vision or slow his game down, at the cost of his own ppg, in order to see the floor better. I would not expect him to ever get to replacement level on the defensive side of the floor. If he wants a shorter deal from the Cavs so he can prove he can do those things, and get paid large on his next deal, that's fine by me as well.

I wasn't really bringing this up in terms of negotiating - just that sometimes players manage to make the best of a lousy situation; that being said - the Cavs have to project, it's simply their job. They're not required to pay Collin for their projection, but they should take it in to account when deciding whether to match another team's offer or bump up their own offer to get things done.

I mean we get a lot of rumors and fluff, but the Cavs actually know if Collin is a hard worker (beyond getting shots up in a gym) and how well he takes direction and suggestions at this point in his career. They know if he was engaged with the other guards and was actually contributing from the bench as portrayed in the media.

Collin is still just 23, he has more growth ahead of him ... the only question is in which areas will it take place. And as for defense, that's really the perfect example of where even if his court awareness doesn't improve, he can still improve drastically on D through experience and learning other teams and player's tendencies. Even if he wont' study that stuff like a Shane Battier, it's got to be pretty hard not to absorb it through game to game experience and the constant film sessions.

[jbk1234]

It might had helped if Collin was with the team even more than he was, but I wonder if sitting out most of the season and watching the team operate with DG, Rubio and Rondo will help him understand the kinds of things he needs to add to his game?

Of course seeing and doing are not the same thing... but experience and knowing what everyone is doing on the floor can help make up for less than stellar court vision and floor awareness.

For me, personally, I'm taking a what you see is what you get approach to him on the contract offer. Any *growth* after it's signed is gravy. I would not expect him to all of a sudden develop good floor vision or slow his game down, at the cost of his own ppg, in order to see the floor better. I would not expect him to ever get to replacement level on the defensive side of the floor. If he wants a shorter deal from the Cavs so he can prove he can do those things, and get paid large on his next deal, that's fine by me as well.

I wasn't really bringing this up in terms of negotiating - just that sometimes players manage to make the best of a lousy situation; that being said - the Cavs have to project, it's simply their job. They're not required to pay Collin for their projection, but they should take it in to account when deciding whether to match another team's offer or bump up their own offer to get things done.

I mean we get a lot of rumors and fluff, but the Cavs actually know if Collin is a hard worker (beyond getting shots up in a gym) and how well he takes direction and suggestions at this point in his career. They know if he was engaged with the other guards and was actually contributing from the bench as portrayed in the media.

Collin is still just 23, he has more growth ahead of him ... the only question is in which areas will it take place. And as for defense, that's really the perfect example of where even if his court awareness doesn't improve, he can still improve drastically on D through experience and learning other teams and player's tendencies. Even if he wont' study that stuff like a Shane Battier, it's got to be pretty hard not to absorb it through game to game experience and the constant film sessions.

Well, just because my projections aren't as optimistic as others, doesn't mean I'm not projecting.

[jbk1234]

Sounds like the Pistons only want Sexton at the right price
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2171325&start=680#p99465646

[gflem]

Sounds like the Pistons only want Sexton at the right price
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2171325&start=680#p99465646

That's reasonable, no team wants a player at the wrong price, which is what the debate is here as well. For me, I like Sexton, but he is redundant to a degree with Garland and up to this point he hasn't shown the ability to be the complimentary player he will need to be on a contending team.
I get that he and his agents want to get paid like a 24 ppg player but I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him like that. I would hope that if the Cavs do re-sign him it is in the $16 mil per season range and not much higher, otherwise it may become a negative value deal in terms of trading him if necessary. And at this early point it doesn't look to me like he will get an offer of $20 mil per like he is reportedly looking for.

[jbk1234]

Sounds like the Pistons only want Sexton at the right price
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2171325&start=680#p99465646

That's reasonable, no team wants a player at the wrong price, which is what the debate is here as well. For me, I like Sexton, but he is redundant to a degree with Garland and up to this point he hasn't shown the ability to be the complimentary player he will need to be on a contending team.
I get that he and his agents want to get paid like a 24 ppg player but I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him like that. I would hope that if the Cavs do re-sign him it is in the $16 mil per season range and not much higher, otherwise it may become a negative value deal in terms of trading him if necessary. And at this early point it doesn't look to me like he will get an offer of $20 mil per like he is reportedly looking for.

When I read that article about his team demanding a starter's salary, that was a pretty good sign his market was soft. You don't have to demand something that's already on the table.

[JonFromVA]

Sounds like the Pistons only want Sexton at the right price
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2171325&start=680#p99465646

That's reasonable, no team wants a player at the wrong price, which is what the debate is here as well. For me, I like Sexton, but he is redundant to a degree with Garland and up to this point he hasn't shown the ability to be the complimentary player he will need to be on a contending team.
I get that he and his agents want to get paid like a 24 ppg player but I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him like that. I would hope that if the Cavs do re-sign him it is in the $16 mil per season range and not much higher, otherwise it may become a negative value deal in terms of trading him if necessary. And at this early point it doesn't look to me like he will get an offer of $20 mil per like he is reportedly looking for.

When I read that article about his team demanding a starter's salary, that was a pretty good sign his market was soft. You don't have to demand something that's already on the table.

It's not like his value around the league went up after missing most of the season with a knee injury ... the undersized score first PG must have somehow become the most hated template in the NBA, because in the past most fans and even some teams would ignore the on/off data and just fall in love with a young player scoring 24ppg with decent efficiency.

Or maybe people just hate that rat tail ...

[jbk1234]

That's reasonable, no team wants a player at the wrong price, which is what the debate is here as well. For me, I like Sexton, but he is redundant to a degree with Garland and up to this point he hasn't shown the ability to be the complimentary player he will need to be on a contending team.
I get that he and his agents want to get paid like a 24 ppg player but I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him like that. I would hope that if the Cavs do re-sign him it is in the $16 mil per season range and not much higher, otherwise it may become a negative value deal in terms of trading him if necessary. And at this early point it doesn't look to me like he will get an offer of $20 mil per like he is reportedly looking for.

When I read that article about his team demanding a starter's salary, that was a pretty good sign his market was soft. You don't have to demand something that's already on the table.

It's not like his value around the league went up after missing most of the season with a knee injury ... the undersized score first PG must have somehow become the most hated template in the NBA, because in the past most fans and even some teams would ignore the on/off data and just fall in love with a young player scoring 24ppg with decent efficiency.

Or maybe people just hate that rat tail ...

I do think that front offices are more sophisticated than in the past (with the possible exception of the Kings who have a very meddlesome owner), Knicks (former agent), and Lakers (again former agent). I suspect that players who look like they're stat padding for their next contract, might actually be getting penalized for it now.

The Nets refusing to offer Kyrie a full max, and the Pelicans refusing to offer Zion a fully guaranteed five year deal, may be an inflection point.

[ijspeelman]

It's not like his value around the league went up after missing most of the season with a knee injury ... the undersized score first PG must have somehow become the most hated template in the NBA, because in the past most fans and even some teams would ignore the on/off data and just fall in love with a young player scoring 24ppg with decent efficiency.

Or maybe people just hate that rat tail ...

No need to go after my guy's rat tail

[gflem]

When I read that article about his team demanding a starter's salary, that was a pretty good sign his market was soft. You don't have to demand something that's already on the table.

It's not like his value around the league went up after missing most of the season with a knee injury ... the undersized score first PG must have somehow become the most hated template in the NBA, because in the past most fans and even some teams would ignore the on/off data and just fall in love with a young player scoring 24ppg with decent efficiency.

Or maybe people just hate that rat tail ...

I do think that front offices are more sophisticated than in the past (with the possible exception of the Kings who have a very meddlesome owner), Knicks (former agent), and Lakers (again former agent). I suspect that players who look like they're stat padding for their next contract, might actually be getting penalized for it now.

The Nets refusing to offer Kyrie a full max, and the Pelicans refusing to offer Zion a fully guaranteed five year deal, may be an inflection point.

This. And paying repeater tax after overpaying players who stat pad.

[jbk1234]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=tcsCZDq2tfTbCj-yZNqIig

[mg]

Don't recognize that twitter handle but I'd assume there's one team that would potentially pay him that much and it starts with a D.

[jbk1234]

Don't recognize that twitter handle but I'd assume there's one team that would potentially pay him that much and it starts with a D.

It's possible, but Detroit media has been making a lot of *at the right price* noise, and if they end up with Sharpe or Ivey, I doubt they start at $20M.

[aad]

Do y’all think if a team signs him to a 18 to 20 contract the Cavs will match

[jbk1234]

Do y’all think if a team signs him to a 18 to 20 contract the Cavs will match

I wouldn't match at $18M, but in order for the Cavs to let him walk, that number would probably have to be north of $20M.

At $18M per, I think that would be a good opportunity for the teams to talk about a potential S&T.

[JonFromVA]

Do y’all think if a team signs him to a 18 to 20 contract the Cavs will match

I do. If another team wants the Cavs to blink, I think they'll need to offer $25M+ or put together some sort of poison pill offer.

Publicly their stance is they want Collin to establish somebody actually thinks he's worth the money he's asking, which is always tricky in an RFA situation unless a team is willing to mad overpay. And while I've seen some conflicting rumors, some of them suggest that if Collin was happy with 18-20 he'd be signed already.

[jbk1234]

Do y’all think if a team signs him to a 18 to 20 contract the Cavs will match

I do. If another team wants the Cavs to blink, I think they'll need to offer $25M+ or put together some sort of poison pill offer.

Publicly their stance is they want Collin to establish somebody actually thinks he's worth the money he's asking, which is always tricky in an RFA situation unless a team is willing to mad overpay. And while I've seen some conflicting rumors, some of them suggest that if Collin was happy with 18-20 he'd be signed already.

The bolded is a real red flag for me. You turn down $20M per over 5 years to bet on yourself, play poorly, get injured, your team plays better without you, and you still want more than $20M per? You didn't win that bet. In fact, we even went out and got LeVert. If this all ends with Sexton getting $20M+ from the Cavs anyway, then I don't understand the thinking at all.

[Revenged25]

Do y’all think if a team signs him to a 18 to 20 contract the Cavs will match

I do. If another team wants the Cavs to blink, I think they'll need to offer $25M+ or put together some sort of poison pill offer.

Publicly their stance is they want Collin to establish somebody actually thinks he's worth the money he's asking, which is always tricky in an RFA situation unless a team is willing to mad overpay. And while I've seen some conflicting rumors, some of them suggest that if Collin was happy with 18-20 he'd be signed already.

The bolded is a real red flag for me. You turn down $20M per over 5 years to bet on yourself, play poorly, get injured, your team plays better without you, and you still want more than $20M per? You didn't win that bet. In fact, we even went out and got LeVert. If this all ends with Sexton getting $20M+ from the Cavs anyway, then I don't understand the thinking at all.

They went out and got LeVert because they were missing what Sexton brought, especially since Super Rubio got hurt and wasn't able to provide some sort of scoring punch. Granted LeVert is worse than Sexton but it was an attempt to replace what they had hoped for originally.

Also IIRC the issue wasn't with the AAV, it was that the Cavs wanted a 5th year while Sexton's team wanted only 4 years.

[jbk1234]

I do. If another team wants the Cavs to blink, I think they'll need to offer $25M+ or put together some sort of poison pill offer.

Publicly their stance is they want Collin to establish somebody actually thinks he's worth the money he's asking, which is always tricky in an RFA situation unless a team is willing to mad overpay. And while I've seen some conflicting rumors, some of them suggest that if Collin was happy with 18-20 he'd be signed already.

The bolded is a real red flag for me. You turn down $20M per over 5 years to bet on yourself, play poorly, get injured, your team plays better without you, and you still want more than $20M per? You didn't win that bet. In fact, we even went out and got LeVert. If this all ends with Sexton getting $20M+ from the Cavs anyway, then I don't understand the thinking at all.

They went out and got LeVert because they were missing what Sexton brought, especially since Super Rubio got hurt and wasn't able to provide some sort of scoring punch. Granted LeVert is worse than Sexton but it was an attempt to replace what they had hoped for originally.

Also IIRC the issue wasn't with the AAV, it was that the Cavs wanted a 5th year while Sexton's team wanted only 4 years.

The Cavs offered $100M over 5 years. Sexton's team asked for $100M over 4 years. Sexton's team try to sell that as *we agreed on the money and were just debating the number of years.*

Look, if the Cavs give Sexton the same money as last summer then good luck trying to negotiate extensions going forward because you've already demonstrated that it's a heads-the-player-wins-tails-and-the-team-loses in these scenarios.