2021-22 regular season thread

[JonFromVA]

Okoro didn’t draft himself @ #5. A players draft status is a dunk cost the minute the pick is made.

Okoro has been exactly as advertised and a significantly better shooter than when drafted. We’re still waiting on his first complete non-Covid impacted offseason.


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The thing about him being 'as advertised' is that there was always a thought that he was going to grow into a contributor on offense.

In almost 2 full years his offensive game has not expanded or improved in the slightest. If you want to count shooting 30% from 3 on wide open looks in the corner because nobody guards him as improvement than fine.

Okoro was bad offensively in college. Not raw, but bad.

He shot 28% on 3pt shots, 10% on mid-range shots, 67% on free throws, and had a 1:1 assist/to ratio.

Last year, he shot 7.7% on mid-range 10-16’ jumpers. That’s up to 25% this year.

He’s up to 31.5% from beyond the arc, 75% from the charity stripe, and an assist/to ratio of 1.8:1.

He’s bad offensively, but he’s improved. And sure, more improvement would be nice, but it is what it is. The 2020 draft was bad. Getting a quality role player out of it is solid.

Consider the next 5 picks in the top-10:
Ongeka Okongou
Killian Hayes
Obi Toppin
Deni Avdija
Jalen Smith

I suspect you wouldn’t have been happy with their development either.

I was hoping for a wing/shooter in that draft, so had my eyes on Vassell and Nesmith and neither of them are where I'd want them to be as shooters considering their level of success in the NCAA.

Which I suppose gets back to something John Hollinger's work on creating a draft rating model taught me ... which is that it's really hard to predict NBA performance based on NCAA stats with some exceptions like rebounding which tends to convey and steals which hint at athletic ability.

The idea that we could run some offense through Isaac has always been questionable because of his handles and lack of moves. His passing instincts and court vision are fine, but we're simply not going to see major improvements unless/until he can do something about those fundamentals and of course keep working on his shot so defenses don't just sit back off him.

I mean all the credit in the world to Garland and Rubio in creating offense against defenses that constantly pack the paint against them. It's not easy for a talented scorer like Sexton let alone a far less talented one like Isaac.

Is Isaac part of the spacing problem? Absolutely we have a shooting guard that struggles to shoot and score, but even he's going to be dragged down to an extent by our clunkiness as he'd benefit from open cutting lanes and more frequent open shots.

If Lauri ever gets comfortable and Evan and Isaac can find some consistent sweet spots, it should have a multiplying effect - but for now it's the reverse.

[jbk1234]

I still say Lauri is the one who needs to step up here. The Cavs can run some more plays for him, but he's been in the NBA for more than a minute and it's hard to seem him as a long-term starter if we don't get more offensive production out of him.

You can absolutely still build a contending team with Okoro at the 2, but the other four guys on the Court need to score consistently.

[JonFromVA]

I still say Lauri is the one who needs to step up here. The Cavs can run some more plays for him, but he's been in the NBA for more than a minute and it's hard to seem him as a long-term starter if we don't get more offensive production out of him.

You can absolutely still build a contending team with Okoro at the 2, but the other four guys on the Court need to score consistently.

At least Lauri has gravity, but I think we have issues that go beyond any individual player. I mean for instance, can we run plays for Lauri? I mean more than just playing hot potato until the clock runs down and the ball is left in his hands?

We actually have a guy who would run off screens all day trying to work for an open shot, but we had Windler standing in a corner when we'd use him because I guess that's the role he was trying to fill.

[LivingLegend]

Okoro didn’t draft himself @ #5. A players draft status is a dunk cost the minute the pick is made.

Okoro has been exactly as advertised and a significantly better shooter than when drafted. We’re still waiting on his first complete non-Covid impacted offseason.


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The thing about him being 'as advertised' is that there was always a thought that he was going to grow into a contributor on offense.

In almost 2 full years his offensive game has not expanded or improved in the slightest. If you want to count shooting 30% from 3 on wide open looks in the corner because nobody guards him as improvement than fine.

Well, he has his TS% up to 57% from 51% last year, and his BPM has improved as well but still negative (-2), but perhaps most importantly he's making a positive contribution to the team this year.

So his offensive efficiency has improved and presumably his defense.

I agree his game has not expanded, but fortunately he's still just 21 --- by comparison Jimmy Butler was still in College, and Miles Bridges was a rookie. Which is to say his game could still improve by leaps and bounds or incrementally like theirs did, not that it will.

That's always the gamble, but the wait time can be significant when a kid leaves college at 19 not because he's ready, but because he fits an athletic profile.

I would be more confident if we even saw flashes of improvement in spurts. Anything that shows there is more there, but there is none of that. I was high as hell on Garland because you could see and tell that there was more there with his game after his R/SO years he just needed to get experience and put it all together.

Okoro flashes none of that. Sure he can come in next year after a offseason with a few new tricks--Im just sort of shocked that he hasnt added anything to his bag. Its not like hes attempting new things and missing, hes not attempting anything at all is what worries me.

That to me tells me he has a loooooong way to go if the attempts arnt even there. If he was attempting things (pull up, midrange, dribble moves) that would at least show me he has been practicing.

[LivingLegend]

I still say Lauri is the one who needs to step up here. The Cavs can run some more plays for him, but he's been in the NBA for more than a minute and it's hard to seem him as a long-term starter if we don't get more offensive production out of him.

You can absolutely still build a contending team with Okoro at the 2, but the other four guys on the Court need to score consistently.

Lauri has scored 20+ in 4 of the last 8 games? 2 out of 3 since Allen went down. I think he is pulling his weight, just wish he could find a little more consistency with his outside shot--but at least hes not afraid to take them. Somebody has to.

[JonFromVA]

The thing about him being 'as advertised' is that there was always a thought that he was going to grow into a contributor on offense.

In almost 2 full years his offensive game has not expanded or improved in the slightest. If you want to count shooting 30% from 3 on wide open looks in the corner because nobody guards him as improvement than fine.

Well, he has his TS% up to 57% from 51% last year, and his BPM has improved as well but still negative (-2), but perhaps most importantly he's making a positive contribution to the team this year.

So his offensive efficiency has improved and presumably his defense.

I agree his game has not expanded, but fortunately he's still just 21 --- by comparison Jimmy Butler was still in College, and Miles Bridges was a rookie. Which is to say his game could still improve by leaps and bounds or incrementally like theirs did, not that it will.

That's always the gamble, but the wait time can be significant when a kid leaves college at 19 not because he's ready, but because he fits an athletic profile.

I would be more confident if we even saw flashes of improvement in spurts. Anything that shows there is more there, but there is none of that. I was high as hell on Garland because you could see and tell that there was more there with his game after his R/SO years he just needed to get experience and put it all together.

Okoro flashes none of that. Sure he can come in next year after a offseason with a few new tricks--Im just sort of shocked that he hasnt added anything to his bag. Its not like hes attempting new things and missing, hes not attempting anything at all is what worries me.

That to me tells me he has a loooooong way to go if the attempts arnt even there. If he was attempting things (pull up, midrange, dribble moves) that would at least show me he has been practicing.

Some of that is just how Isaac is wired ... he embraces the role he's asked to fill and is always looking for his teammates. He wasn't put in Sexton or even Garland's position of having to carry the offense, but he wasn't asked to come off the bench and prove himself against backups either.

When looking back at Isaac's draft profile, I'd say he's demonstrated both his strengths and his weaknesses pretty thoroughly - which is not at all a bad outcome when some prospects only demonstrate their weaknesses.

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

I'm not sure what would be the catalyst for Isaac to start showing you he might have star potential, but I imagine it starts with improving his handle and hence his confidence with the ball in his hands, and of course continuing to work on his 3pt shot so defenses have to play up on him more. It's certainly doable IMO, but there's no set schedule for that kind of improvement.

[jbk1234]

I still say Lauri is the one who needs to step up here. The Cavs can run some more plays for him, but he's been in the NBA for more than a minute and it's hard to seem him as a long-term starter if we don't get more offensive production out of him.

You can absolutely still build a contending team with Okoro at the 2, but the other four guys on the Court need to score consistently.

Lauri has scored 20+ in 4 of the last 8 games? 2 out of 3 since Allen went down. I think he is pulling his weight, just wish he could find a little more consistency with his outside shot--but at least hes not afraid to take them. Somebody has to.

The problem is he scores 20 points in 4 games and then disappears in 4 games. It's feast or famine. Mobley and Lauri need to be dropping 15 points every game. Especially with Allen out.

[JonFromVA]

I still say Lauri is the one who needs to step up here. The Cavs can run some more plays for him, but he's been in the NBA for more than a minute and it's hard to seem him as a long-term starter if we don't get more offensive production out of him.

You can absolutely still build a contending team with Okoro at the 2, but the other four guys on the Court need to score consistently.

Lauri has scored 20+ in 4 of the last 8 games? 2 out of 3 since Allen went down. I think he is pulling his weight, just wish he could find a little more consistency with his outside shot--but at least hes not afraid to take them. Somebody has to.

The problem is he scores 20 points in 4 games and then disappears in 4 games. It's feast or famine. Mobley and Lauri need to be dropping 15 points every game. Especially with Allen out.

That's a pretty high bar for this team unless you're also handing out 20 shots per game.

Garland and Sexton can do it, but we're well past a time when Love could do it and that's about it give or take the occasional hot streak from some of the other guys.

[toooskies]

Okoro didn’t draft himself @ #5. A players draft status is a dunk cost the minute the pick is made.

Okoro has been exactly as advertised and a significantly better shooter than when drafted. We’re still waiting on his first complete non-Covid impacted offseason.


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The thing about him being 'as advertised' is that there was always a thought that he was going to grow into a contributor on offense.

In almost 2 full years his offensive game has not expanded or improved in the slightest. If you want to count shooting 30% from 3 on wide open looks in the corner because nobody guards him as improvement than fine.

Okoro was bad offensively in college. Not raw, but bad.

He shot 28% on 3pt shots, 10% on mid-range shots, 67% on free throws, and had a 1:1 assist/to ratio.

Last year, he shot 7.7% on mid-range 10-16’ jumpers. That’s up to 25% this year.

He’s up to 31.5% from beyond the arc, 75% from the charity stripe, and an assist/to ratio of 1.8:1.

He’s bad offensively, but he’s improved. And sure, more improvement would be nice, but it is what it is. The 2020 draft was bad. Getting a quality role player out of it is solid.

Consider the next 5 picks in the top-10:
Ongeka Okongou
Killian Hayes
Obi Toppin
Deni Avdija
Jalen Smith

I suspect you wouldn’t have been happy with their development either.


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The obvious pick of a 6'5" guy at #5 would've been Haliburton, who many mocked in the #6-8 range that year. Might've been mocked to the Cavs if people thought they'd take another guard, but most of the mocks had us taking Toppin.

Ultimately, though, Okoro is supposed to play defense and whatever offense he contributes is a bonus (and those bonuses have been largely good). The Cavs were supposed to have Garland + Sexton + Rubio to do the dribbling with Cedi helping out from the wing, and when they got hurt we traded for more guys (Rondo, LeVert) who also can't stop getting hurt. It shouldn't be Okoro's job to playmake and sometimes you just have to accept that the injuries this year have been a load.

Whether it's Markkanen hitting shots or LeVert coming back and showing some inspired play or what, if anyone steps up beyond wheat they've done so far it's a blessing that we've had guys step up so often when others have gone down this year. Sometimes those blessings run out.

[KuruptedCav]

The thing about him being 'as advertised' is that there was always a thought that he was going to grow into a contributor on offense.

In almost 2 full years his offensive game has not expanded or improved in the slightest. If you want to count shooting 30% from 3 on wide open looks in the corner because nobody guards him as improvement than fine.

Okoro was bad offensively in college. Not raw, but bad.

He shot 28% on 3pt shots, 10% on mid-range shots, 67% on free throws, and had a 1:1 assist/to ratio.

Last year, he shot 7.7% on mid-range 10-16’ jumpers. That’s up to 25% this year.

He’s up to 31.5% from beyond the arc, 75% from the charity stripe, and an assist/to ratio of 1.8:1.

He’s bad offensively, but he’s improved. And sure, more improvement would be nice, but it is what it is. The 2020 draft was bad. Getting a quality role player out of it is solid.

Consider the next 5 picks in the top-10:
Ongeka Okongou
Killian Hayes
Obi Toppin
Deni Avdija
Jalen Smith

I suspect you wouldn’t have been happy with their development either.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The obvious pick of a 6'5" guy at #5 would've been Haliburton, who many mocked in the #6-8 range that year. Might've been mocked to the Cavs if people thought they'd take another guard, but most of the mocks had us taking Toppin.

Ultimately, though, Okoro is supposed to play defense and whatever offense he contributes is a bonus (and those bonuses have been largely good). The Cavs were supposed to have Garland + Sexton + Rubio to do the dribbling with Cedi helping out from the wing, and when they got hurt we traded for more guys (Rondo, LeVert) who also can't stop getting hurt. It shouldn't be Okoro's job to playmake and sometimes you just have to accept that the injuries this year have been a load.

Whether it's Markkanen hitting shots or LeVert coming back and showing some inspired play or what, if anyone steps up beyond wheat they've done so far it's a blessing that we've had guys step up so often when others have gone down this year. Sometimes those blessings run out.

Dubious on how obvious it is to draft an injured PG at 5 who refuses to share his medical records with you a year after you draft Darius and two years after Collin…

Lowe did a solid piece on how he was willing to trade dollars for destination and wanted nothing to do with the teams 5-10…


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[JonFromVA]

Okoro was bad offensively in college. Not raw, but bad.

He shot 28% on 3pt shots, 10% on mid-range shots, 67% on free throws, and had a 1:1 assist/to ratio.

Last year, he shot 7.7% on mid-range 10-16’ jumpers. That’s up to 25% this year.

He’s up to 31.5% from beyond the arc, 75% from the charity stripe, and an assist/to ratio of 1.8:1.

He’s bad offensively, but he’s improved. And sure, more improvement would be nice, but it is what it is. The 2020 draft was bad. Getting a quality role player out of it is solid.

Consider the next 5 picks in the top-10:
Ongeka Okongou
Killian Hayes
Obi Toppin
Deni Avdija
Jalen Smith

I suspect you wouldn’t have been happy with their development either.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

The obvious pick of a 6'5" guy at #5 would've been Haliburton, who many mocked in the #6-8 range that year. Might've been mocked to the Cavs if people thought they'd take another guard, but most of the mocks had us taking Toppin.

Ultimately, though, Okoro is supposed to play defense and whatever offense he contributes is a bonus (and those bonuses have been largely good). The Cavs were supposed to have Garland + Sexton + Rubio to do the dribbling with Cedi helping out from the wing, and when they got hurt we traded for more guys (Rondo, LeVert) who also can't stop getting hurt. It shouldn't be Okoro's job to playmake and sometimes you just have to accept that the injuries this year have been a load.

Whether it's Markkanen hitting shots or LeVert coming back and showing some inspired play or what, if anyone steps up beyond wheat they've done so far it's a blessing that we've had guys step up so often when others have gone down this year. Sometimes those blessings run out.

Dubious on how obvious it is to draft an injured PG at 5 who refuses to share his medical records with you a year after you draft Darius and two years after Collin…

Lowe did a solid piece on how he was willing to trade dollars for destination and wanted nothing to do with the teams 5-10…

I also felt our interest in Toppin was a smoke screen to try to convince the Knicks to trade up with us.

Of course if we were counting on Patrick Williams dropping in the draft, well, that didn't happen, but plenty of wings did make it that far including Avdija, Vassell, Nesmith, probably Okoro would have and yes a certain 6'5" PG.

[jbk1234]

Lauri has scored 20+ in 4 of the last 8 games? 2 out of 3 since Allen went down. I think he is pulling his weight, just wish he could find a little more consistency with his outside shot--but at least hes not afraid to take them. Somebody has to.

The problem is he scores 20 points in 4 games and then disappears in 4 games. It's feast or famine. Mobley and Lauri need to be dropping 15 points every game. Especially with Allen out.

That's a pretty high bar for this team unless you're also handing out 20 shots per game.

Garland and Sexton can do it, but we're well past a time when Love could do it and that's about it give or take the occasional hot streak from some of the other guys.

Unless you're a defensive specialist, you should be able to get 15ppg on 15 shots, especially if you're a decent 3-point shooter. A .500 TS% isn't even good.

[LivingLegend]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

[jbk1234]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

[LivingLegend]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

I need to know why, it's killing me but tonight he showed he can be more than a dude who stands in the corner. His length and activity give him a bunch of upside all over the court.

Maybe they are keeping him shelved to be Cedis replacement and other teams done come sniffing around?

[toooskies]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

Still makes boneheaded plays. His first defensive possession he picked up the ball handler full-court, the camera cut away, and when it came back he was three steps behind as the ball handler closed to the hoop for a score.

[LivingLegend]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

Still makes boneheaded plays. His first defensive possession he picked up the ball handler full-court, the camera cut away, and when it came back he was three steps behind as the ball handler closed to the hoop for a score.

I mean are we going to sit here and pick apart every bad play a player makes for justification to not play him. Every player does this. Lamar Stevens walks into the game with 3 fouls because he has no idea how to not foul jumpshooters and he has been somehow receiving mins for 2 straight years.

[KuruptedCav]

Did anybody see that Windler got PT tonight and actually contributed a lot with his activity?

Hopefully that kicks the coaching staff in the pants to actually keep him in there.

Also, Okoro heard me talking smack and delivered his best performance offensively in months. Keep doing that, more.

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

I need to know why, it's killing me but tonight he showed he can be more than a dude who stands in the corner. His length and activity give him a bunch of upside all over the court.

Maybe they are keeping him shelved to be Cedis replacement and other teams done come sniffing around?

Dude won’t shoot. 12 minutes 2 FGAs…

The first clip I think is the pickup play where the tv camera panned…
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=OPP_PTS_PAINT&GameID=0022101020&PlayerID=1629685&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game


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[LivingLegend]

It's borderline inexplicable how little run he's gotten as G League guys get more playing time.

I need to know why, it's killing me but tonight he showed he can be more than a dude who stands in the corner. His length and activity give him a bunch of upside all over the court.

Maybe they are keeping him shelved to be Cedis replacement and other teams done come sniffing around?

Dude won’t shoot. 12 minutes 2 FGAs…

The first clip I think is the pickup play where the tv camera panned…
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=OPP_PTS_PAINT&GameID=0022101020&PlayerID=1629685&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game


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He was never passed the ball and the time he was passed the ball in shooting position, he shot. Can we see the other plays where he got a tip out offensive rebound, or when he ripped the ball from Zubac under the rim or when he got like 3 deflections.

Im not sure why you think the 18th man off the bench should come into the game and take shots at the same rate Darius Garland does.

Winder- +3
Goowin- -1
Stevens- -5

[jbk1234]

I need to know why, it's killing me but tonight he showed he can be more than a dude who stands in the corner. His length and activity give him a bunch of upside all over the court.

Maybe they are keeping him shelved to be Cedis replacement and other teams done come sniffing around?

Dude won’t shoot. 12 minutes 2 FGAs…

The first clip I think is the pickup play where the tv camera panned…
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=OPP_PTS_PAINT&GameID=0022101020&PlayerID=1629685&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game


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He was never passed the ball and the time he was passed the ball in shooting position, he shot. Can we see the other plays where he got a tip out offensive rebound, or when he ripped the ball from Zubac under the rim or when he got like 3 deflections.

Im not sure why you think the 18th man off the bench should come into the game and take shots at the same rate Darius Garland does.

Winder- +3
Goowin- -1
Stevens- -5

This. Sans LBJ, the Cavs have been bad at getting shooters the ball when open. It's kind of ridiculous too because they don't have an embarrassment of riches as far as having too many good shooters. There are three, maybe four guys, on the entire roster who I trust to be consistent from 3 point range.