2021-22 regular season thread

[jbk1234]

So... this would be a good game to jump on the Magic and step on their necks from the tip (as Austin Carr would put it), maybe even try to gain some momentum for the rest of the season; or we can just play it down the wire, perhaps double OT like we've done in other games we were supposed to easily win.

The Celtics are resting everyone tonight against the Raptors. I'd like to see the Cavs taper Garland and Mobley's minutes a bit ahead of the play in. Give LeVert minutes. Heck give Goodwin minutes. Wade's out for the season so you might as well give Stevens more minutes.

[JonFromVA]

So... this would be a good game to jump on the Magic and step on their necks from the tip (as Austin Carr would put it), maybe even try to gain some momentum for the rest of the season; or we can just play it down the wire, perhaps double OT like we've done in other games we were supposed to easily win.

The Celtics are resting everyone tonight against the Raptors. I'd like to see the Cavs taper Garland and Mobley's minutes a bit ahead of the play in. Give LeVert minutes. Heck give Goodwin minutes. Wade's out for the season so you might as well give Stevens more minutes.

Well, JBB and the guys are still going to be fighting to not fall in to the play-in, but that doesn't change the fact that overplaying Garland and Mobley is just taking a big injury risk for a diminishing return as they wear down.

I get the impression JBB wants to be able to use LeVert as our backup PG, but hasn't yet made up his mind which group he should be trying to lead.

It is worth noting that our 4th quarter comeback .vs. the Bulls was fueled by putting 4 or 5 shooters on the floor (depending what you care to call Stevens). I just take it as a sign of JBB's desperation given how rarely he's bothered to try to space the floor.

I'd spread the floor for Goodwin and let him attack while Garland is getting some rest, but hey that's just me. Also seems obvious to try to use LeVert to run some P&R stuff with Mobley like he'd do with Allen when Garland is on the floor so DG doesn't have to initiate everything. Albeit that assumes that stuff would work with Evan slipping all his screens ...

[jbk1234]

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[jbk1234]

So... this would be a good game to jump on the Magic and step on their necks from the tip (as Austin Carr would put it), maybe even try to gain some momentum for the rest of the season; or we can just play it down the wire, perhaps double OT like we've done in other games we were supposed to easily win.

The Celtics are resting everyone tonight against the Raptors. I'd like to see the Cavs taper Garland and Mobley's minutes a bit ahead of the play in. Give LeVert minutes. Heck give Goodwin minutes. Wade's out for the season so you might as well give Stevens more minutes.

Well, JBB and the guys are still going to be fighting to not fall in to the play-in, but that doesn't change the fact that overplaying Garland and Mobley is just taking a big injury risk for a diminishing return as they wear down.

I get the impression JBB wants to be able to use LeVert as our backup PG, but hasn't yet made up his mind which group he should be trying to lead.

It is worth noting that our 4th quarter comeback .vs. the Bulls was fueled by putting 4 or 5 shooters on the floor (depending what you care to call Stevens). I just take it as a sign of JBB's desperation given how rarely he's bothered to try to space the floor.

I'd spread the floor for Goodwin and let him attack while Garland is getting some rest, but hey that's just me. Also seems obvious to try to use LeVert to run some P&R stuff with Mobley like he'd do with Allen when Garland is on the floor so DG doesn't have to initiate everything. Albeit that assumes that stuff would work with Evan slipping all his screens ...

I watched that Bulls game. Stevens was good until he wasn't, he pressed with bad shots, and it's why we faded in the end. That's not unique amongst bench guys, but it's an issue the Cavs have with their role players. They look okay, sometimes even good, against second units or bad teams, but you can almost see them hit their heads on the ceiling when they're up against starters on good teams or trying to close out games. It's why I'm less down JBB than some other fans. I have my gripes about Windler getting almost zero run this season, and using Lauri solely as a stretch big to to close out games, but I don't believe there's some secret combination of middling players that he could be putting out there that would necessarily change the result. We weren't good enough to lose both Rubio and Allen. The LeVert trade was also a mistake.

[ijspeelman]

I am not going to be too hard on LeVert yet (I still don't think he's had enough time to gel with guys and won't until next season + coaching hasn't been able to fit him well into our "system"), but we need to cut plays like these out. He shooting a double-teamed 15 footed fade away with 10 seconds left in the shot clock with an open weakside pass. Admiral ends up cutting in before he shoots and leaves Garland open as well.

[JonFromVA]

I am not going to be too hard on LeVert yet (I still don't think he's had enough time to gel with guys and won't until next season + coaching hasn't been able to fit him well into our "system"), but we need to cut plays like these out. He shooting a double-teamed 15 footed fade away with 10 seconds left in the shot clock with an open weakside pass. Admiral ends up cutting in before he shoots and leaves Garland open as well.

What I've heard is that LeVert sees interior passing opportunities (ex: lobs to Allen) better than he sees perimeter opportunities. The short-term trick would be to get him doing things he's comfortable doing and leave the drive & kick stuff to Garland (and in theory Goodwin).

[jbk1234]

I am not going to be too hard on LeVert yet (I still don't think he's had enough time to gel with guys and won't until next season + coaching hasn't been able to fit him well into our "system"), but we need to cut plays like these out. He shooting a double-teamed 15 footed fade away with 10 seconds left in the shot clock with an open weakside pass. Admiral ends up cutting in before he shoots and leaves Garland open as well.

What I've heard is that LeVert sees interior passing opportunities (ex: lobs to Allen) better than he sees perimeter opportunities. The short-term trick would be to get him doing things he's comfortable doing and leave the drive & kick stuff to Garland (and in theory Goodwin).

The problem is that what our spacing looks like with three of our best shooters on the court at the same time (I will grant you that Love is under the rim). We're a very easy team to run a box-and-one type defense against as constructed. The other team has a say in what you can, and cannot effectively execute offensively. It's not as though LeVert has a mid range game like DeRozan's where the shots are coming from 15+ feet. If he's pulling up at 12 feet, and there's a defender with any kind of size sitting there at 10 feet, well, good luck I guess.

[toooskies]

I am not going to be too hard on LeVert yet (I still don't think he's had enough time to gel with guys and won't until next season + coaching hasn't been able to fit him well into our "system"), but we need to cut plays like these out. He shooting a double-teamed 15 footed fade away with 10 seconds left in the shot clock with an open weakside pass. Admiral ends up cutting in before he shoots and leaves Garland open as well.

What I've heard is that LeVert sees interior passing opportunities (ex: lobs to Allen) better than he sees perimeter opportunities. The short-term trick would be to get him doing things he's comfortable doing and leave the drive & kick stuff to Garland (and in theory Goodwin).

The problem is that what our spacing looks like with three of our best shooters on the court at the same time (I will grant you that Love is under the rim). We're a very easy team to run a box-and-one type defense against as constructed. The other team has a say in what you can, and cannot effectively execute offensively. It's not as though LeVert has a mid range game like DeRozan's where the shots are coming from 15+ feet. If he's pulling up at 12 feet, and there's a defender with any kind of size sitting there at 10 feet, well, good luck I guess.

The spacing is fine, the lack of a pass out of the double-team is the problem here. I'll take the 3-point shot from Markkanen or Okoro any day.

[jbk1234]

What I've heard is that LeVert sees interior passing opportunities (ex: lobs to Allen) better than he sees perimeter opportunities. The short-term trick would be to get him doing things he's comfortable doing and leave the drive & kick stuff to Garland (and in theory Goodwin).

The problem is that what our spacing looks like with three of our best shooters on the court at the same time (I will grant you that Love is under the rim). We're a very easy team to run a box-and-one type defense against as constructed. The other team has a say in what you can, and cannot effectively execute offensively. It's not as though LeVert has a mid range game like DeRozan's where the shots are coming from 15+ feet. If he's pulling up at 12 feet, and there's a defender with any kind of size sitting there at 10 feet, well, good luck I guess.

The spacing is fine, the lack of a pass out of the double-team is the problem here. I'll take the 3-point shot from Markkanen or Okoro any day.

There are four defenders within 8 feet of the basket and the fifth one is out on Garland. When I say spacing, I don't mean our players aren't where they're suppose to be, I mean other teams don't respect our guys enough to leave the painted area.

[JonFromVA]

The problem is that what our spacing looks like with three of our best shooters on the court at the same time (I will grant you that Love is under the rim). We're a very easy team to run a box-and-one type defense against as constructed. The other team has a say in what you can, and cannot effectively execute offensively. It's not as though LeVert has a mid range game like DeRozan's where the shots are coming from 15+ feet. If he's pulling up at 12 feet, and there's a defender with any kind of size sitting there at 10 feet, well, good luck I guess.

The spacing is fine, the lack of a pass out of the double-team is the problem here. I'll take the 3-point shot from Markkanen or Okoro any day.

There are four defenders within 8 feet of the basket and the fifth one is out on Garland. When I say spacing, I don't mean our players aren't where they're suppose to be, I mean other teams don't respect our guys enough to leave the painted area.

Pick one or more options:

a) They don't think LeVert will pass;
b) They'd love to see Isaac or Lauri try to make that shot;
c) They don't think we can pass the ball that far before they can steal it out of mid-air and/or contest;
d) They're trying to lose and usually it works well for them in that respect.

[ijspeelman]

What I've heard is that LeVert sees interior passing opportunities (ex: lobs to Allen) better than he sees perimeter opportunities. The short-term trick would be to get him doing things he's comfortable doing and leave the drive & kick stuff to Garland (and in theory Goodwin).

I'll have to watch for this the next few times we play. I have memories of good kick-outs, but maybe they happen less than I think. I do remember seeing good lay-downs and lobs when he gets in the paint (though he has had trouble handling the ball in the last three games under pressure).

Has only happened a few times, but my favorite action we run for him right now is when we have him in the corner and then Lauri or Love set an off-ball screen for him and then he's passed the ball as he cuts in to the paint from the top. That play seems to yield some pretty good results to get him some downhill momentum and make the pass back for the three or go in for a lay-up/turn around 8-10 footer.

[ijspeelman]

I'll have to watch for this the next few times we play. I have memories of good kick-outs, but maybe they happen less than I think. I do remember seeing good lay-downs and lobs when he gets in the paint (though he has had trouble handling the ball in the last three games under pressure).

Has only happened a few times, but my favorite action we run for him right now is when we have him in the corner and then Lauri or Love set an off-ball screen for him and then he's passed the ball as he cuts in to the paint from the top. That play seems to yield some pretty good results to get him some downhill momentum and make the pass back for the three or go in for a lay-up/turn around 8-10 footer.

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Just wanted to add a quick visual of what I mean. I realize this isn't Love or Lauri setting the screen (if it was, it would have lead to an open drive to the left instead of the floater LeVert has to settle for since Thompson would have needed to care more about the shooter in the corner).

[RiRuHoops]

When you go from Rubio to levert you're hosed.

[jbk1234]

The spacing is fine, the lack of a pass out of the double-team is the problem here. I'll take the 3-point shot from Markkanen or Okoro any day.

There are four defenders within 8 feet of the basket and the fifth one is out on Garland. When I say spacing, I don't mean our players aren't where they're suppose to be, I mean other teams don't respect our guys enough to leave the painted area.

Pick one or more options:

a) They don't think LeVert will pass;
b) They'd love to see Isaac or Lauri try to make that shot;
c) They don't think we can pass the ball that far before they can steal it out of mid-air and/or contest;
d) They're trying to lose and usually it works well for them in that respect.

As to d), they're not the first or last team to defend the Cavs this way. When Allen was healthy, it was a regular occurrence.

[JonFromVA]

There are four defenders within 8 feet of the basket and the fifth one is out on Garland. When I say spacing, I don't mean our players aren't where they're suppose to be, I mean other teams don't respect our guys enough to leave the painted area.

Pick one or more options:

a) They don't think LeVert will pass;
b) They'd love to see Isaac or Lauri try to make that shot;
c) They don't think we can pass the ball that far before they can steal it out of mid-air and/or contest;
d) They're trying to lose and usually it works well for them in that respect.

As to d), they're not the first or last team to defend the Cavs this way. When Allen was healthy, it was a regular occurrence.

Sure, but they're undeniably trying to lose ... and the player's we had on the weak side back then were often Evan and Isaac (before he started shooting 50% from the corners).

But it was intended to be multiple choice ...

[jbk1234]

Pick one or more options:

a) They don't think LeVert will pass;
b) They'd love to see Isaac or Lauri try to make that shot;
c) They don't think we can pass the ball that far before they can steal it out of mid-air and/or contest;
d) They're trying to lose and usually it works well for them in that respect.

As to d), they're not the first or last team to defend the Cavs this way. When Allen was healthy, it was a regular occurrence.

Sure, but they're undeniably trying to lose ... and the player's we had on the weak side back then were often Evan and Isaac (before he started shooting 50% from the corners).

But it was intended to be multiple choice ...

I just think that Garland being the most consistent 3 point shooter on the roster is a serious issue that has limited, and will continue to limit, the Cavs offensively. I would've loved to have made a run at TJ Warren this summer. I'd love to find a way to trade for Cam Johnson. We can afford some defensive slippage at the three so long as all we're starting Okoro, Mobley and Allen. We cannot afford to routinely face teams that have four defenders with one foot in the paint.

[JonFromVA]

As to d), they're not the first or last team to defend the Cavs this way. When Allen was healthy, it was a regular occurrence.

Sure, but they're undeniably trying to lose ... and the player's we had on the weak side back then were often Evan and Isaac (before he started shooting 50% from the corners).

But it was intended to be multiple choice ...

I just think that Garland being the most consistent 3 point shooter on the roster is a serious issue that has limited, and will continue to limit, the Cavs offensively. I would've loved to have made a run at TJ Warren this summer. I'd love to find a way to trade for Cam Johnson. We can afford some defensive slippage at the three so long as all we're starting Okoro, Mobley and Allen. We cannot afford to routinely face teams that have four defenders with one foot in the paint.

That's 100% what I believed until the Cavs set out to prove me wrong early in the season, especially with Rubio to give us that option when defenses load up on Garland.

Now maybe that would have stopped working as the rest of the league was coming up to speed, and LeVert+Rondo was supposed to give us a facsimile of what we were getting from Ricky, but you know ... injuries.

So we're well on our way to be going in to yet another off-season without a clear picture of what we need to do thanks to injuries.

Maybe the answer is as simple as getting Ricky back plus internal growth?

Or not...

[jbk1234]

Sure, but they're undeniably trying to lose ... and the player's we had on the weak side back then were often Evan and Isaac (before he started shooting 50% from the corners).

But it was intended to be multiple choice ...

I just think that Garland being the most consistent 3 point shooter on the roster is a serious issue that has limited, and will continue to limit, the Cavs offensively. I would've loved to have made a run at TJ Warren this summer. I'd love to find a way to trade for Cam Johnson. We can afford some defensive slippage at the three so long as all we're starting Okoro, Mobley and Allen. We cannot afford to routinely face teams that have four defenders with one foot in the paint.

That's 100% what I believed until the Cavs set out to prove me wrong early in the season, especially with Rubio to give us that option when defenses load up on Garland.

Now maybe that would have stopped working as the rest of the league was coming up to speed, and LeVert+Rondo was supposed to give us a facsimile of what we were getting from Ricky, but you know ... injuries.

So we're well on our way to be going in to yet another off-season without a clear picture of what we need to do thanks to injuries.

Maybe the answer is as simple as getting Ricky back plus internal growth?

Or not...

The big thing with Rubio/Garland was that we turned the ball over very rarely and he's always been underrated on the defensive end. We were a very efficient team but still somewhat limited offensively. Love's last season as meaningful contributor is probably next season. I'd like to see Lauri move into that role and upgrade the 3.

[JonFromVA]

I just think that Garland being the most consistent 3 point shooter on the roster is a serious issue that has limited, and will continue to limit, the Cavs offensively. I would've loved to have made a run at TJ Warren this summer. I'd love to find a way to trade for Cam Johnson. We can afford some defensive slippage at the three so long as all we're starting Okoro, Mobley and Allen. We cannot afford to routinely face teams that have four defenders with one foot in the paint.

That's 100% what I believed until the Cavs set out to prove me wrong early in the season, especially with Rubio to give us that option when defenses load up on Garland.

Now maybe that would have stopped working as the rest of the league was coming up to speed, and LeVert+Rondo was supposed to give us a facsimile of what we were getting from Ricky, but you know ... injuries.

So we're well on our way to be going in to yet another off-season without a clear picture of what we need to do thanks to injuries.

Maybe the answer is as simple as getting Ricky back plus internal growth?

Or not...

The big thing with Rubio/Garland was that we turned the ball over very rarely and he's always been underrated on the defensive end. We were a very efficient team but still somewhat limited offensively. Love's last season as meaningful contributor is probably next season. I'd like to see Lauri move into that role and upgrade the 3.

The Ricky+Love pairing on the second unit was really important, and his absence is likely related to Cedi's drop off. If we get Ricky back, he might just extend Kevin's usefulness with the Cavs past this current contract.

Otherwise, sure, Lauri could take over that role ... but the devil is in the proverbial details and unless LeBron falls in our lap again, we're picking from what we have on hand and/or what we can get in trade for it.

The good news is we have had a lot of successful lineups this season, and the primary key would be to get any of them back on the floor together (hopefully before the season is over).

And while injuries have derailed our ability to evaluate LeVert, it's worth noting that the Garland-Okoro-LeVert-Markkenen-Mobley lineup has been +9.6 pp100 in 63 minutes. Drop LeVert for Stevens and those guys are +11.6 in 68 minutes, replace Allen for Okoro and we're +13.8 in 92 minutes ... so all pretty viable in comparison to Garland-Okoro-Markkenen-Mobley-Allen which is +12.0 in 108 minutes suggesting our core is pretty darn good and we do have some flexibility we can exercise.

I just wish we knew more how Collin would fit ...

Brutal truth has been we have the net rating of a .500 team without Rubio, and we're outright trash without Garland, so we have to do something and while drafting a PG would be a good idea for the future, we can't trust a rookie PG (or a SF) to be a difference maker.

[LivingLegend]

That's 100% what I believed until the Cavs set out to prove me wrong early in the season, especially with Rubio to give us that option when defenses load up on Garland.

Now maybe that would have stopped working as the rest of the league was coming up to speed, and LeVert+Rondo was supposed to give us a facsimile of what we were getting from Ricky, but you know ... injuries.

So we're well on our way to be going in to yet another off-season without a clear picture of what we need to do thanks to injuries.

Maybe the answer is as simple as getting Ricky back plus internal growth?

Or not...

The big thing with Rubio/Garland was that we turned the ball over very rarely and he's always been underrated on the defensive end. We were a very efficient team but still somewhat limited offensively. Love's last season as meaningful contributor is probably next season. I'd like to see Lauri move into that role and upgrade the 3.

The Ricky+Love pairing on the second unit was really important, and his absence is likely related to Cedi's drop off. If we get Ricky back, he might just extend Kevin's usefulness with the Cavs past this current contract.

Otherwise, sure, Lauri could take over that role ... but the devil is in the proverbial details and unless LeBron falls in our lap again, we're picking from what we have on hand and/or what we can get in trade for it.

The good news is we have had a lot of successful lineups this season, and the primary key would be to get any of them back on the floor together (hopefully before the season is over).

And while injuries have derailed our ability to evaluate LeVert, it's worth noting that the Garland-Okoro-LeVert-Markkenen-Mobley lineup has been +9.6 pp100 in 63 minutes. Drop LeVert for Stevens and those guys are +11.6 in 68 minutes, replace Allen for Okoro and we're +13.8 in 92 minutes ... so all pretty viable in comparison to Garland-Okoro-Markkenen-Mobley-Allen which is +12.0 in 108 minutes suggesting our core is pretty darn good and we do have some flexibility we can exercise.

I just wish we knew more how Collin would fit ...

Brutal truth has been we have the net rating of a .500 team without Rubio, and we're outright trash without Garland, so we have to do something and while drafting a PG would be a good idea for the future, we can't trust a rookie PG (or a SF) to be a difference maker.

If the past 3 months have taught us anything it is that Collin is sorely missed as a secondary playmaker to Garland. Ive seen enough of LeVert to know he is essentially a less reliable Sexton but better of defense.

I agree as well that we should bring Rubio back for super cheap. Dont know if he wants to though. Not really concerned about his injury because of his playstyle.

I just dont think we should be on the hunt to go reshuffle the deck this offseason. This team was legit good this year and if we had heath on our side, who knows. We could be sitting in the 3 seed right now. I wouldnt be mad if they decided to just run it back with the same group.

PG- Garland/Rubio
SG- Okoro/Sexton
SF- Lauri/Cedi
PF- Mobley/Love
C- Allen/Wade