2021-22 regular season thread

[jbk1234]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

I think the playoff experience (even if it is 4 out) could be more useful than the mid-round 1st. I like the idea of getting to run our scheme in a playoff environment and see what works and what doesn't work so they can hopefully address it in the off-season.

I think we are pretty well off assets wise. We have all our FR picks (besides this year if we do make the playoffs, then we lose 2023 if we make the playoffs), an expiring Love, two-year Cedi contract, possible sign-and-trade with Sexton (if we don't want to re-sign), expiring LeVert (if we don't want to re-sign), Okoro (if we don't like him for the future and/or are offered a crazy move [I am on team keep Okoro... I think he can hone his skills on his three (volume and efficiency) and be a great 3&D G/W]), multiple second round picks, and Windler/Wade contracts.

I just don't know that another opportunity to pick in the lottery will be forthcoming anytime soon. We've been absolutely crippled by injuries this season, and Fedor just reported that while Allen will be available for the post season, he won't be 100%. All of Booker, Mitchell, Mikal Bridges, Haliburton, and Vassel were late lottery picks.

[ijspeelman]

I just don't know that another opportunity to pick in the lottery will be forthcoming anytime soon. We've been absolutely crippled by injuries this season, and Fedor just reported that while Allen will be available for the post season, he won't be 100%. All of Booker, Mitchell, Mikal Bridges, Haliburton, and Vassel were late lottery picks.

I am like 60/40 on this. I am extremely torn because of the points you mentioned.

[JonFromVA]

I just don't know that another opportunity to pick in the lottery will be forthcoming anytime soon. We've been absolutely crippled by injuries this season, and Fedor just reported that while Allen will be available for the post season, he won't be 100%. All of Booker, Mitchell, Mikal Bridges, Haliburton, and Vassel were late lottery picks.

I am like 60/40 on this. I am extremely torn because of the points you mentioned.

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

[jbk1234]

I just don't know that another opportunity to pick in the lottery will be forthcoming anytime soon. We've been absolutely crippled by injuries this season, and Fedor just reported that while Allen will be available for the post season, he won't be 100%. All of Booker, Mitchell, Mikal Bridges, Haliburton, and Vassel were late lottery picks.

I am like 60/40 on this. I am extremely torn because of the points you mentioned.

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

Well, I'd like a Mulligan on the entire trade, but what's done is done, and if Allen isn't going to be healthy for the post season, I think we're better off forgoing a *playoff experience* that involves getting swept, and instead keeping the pick while we're selecting in that range. Unless we completely fail to address the backup PG position, then I think it's highly unlikely that we'll be picking that high over the next few years, and even if we do, I think we're better off starting the development clock on whoever is drafted this summer and not say in 2023 or 2024 once we finally keep a pick.

[ijspeelman]

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

If we somehow kept the pick, I'd be much more inclined to trade it up to grab someone like AJ Griffin or grab a team need (like a backup PG/Wing) unless they have someone they really want in the 10-14 spot.

[JonFromVA]

I am like 60/40 on this. I am extremely torn because of the points you mentioned.

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

Well, I'd like a Mulligan on the entire trade, but what's done is done, and if Allen isn't going to be healthy for the post season, I think we're better off forgoing a *playoff experience* that involves getting swept, and instead keeping the pick while we're selecting in that range. Unless we completely fail to address the backup PG position, then I think it's highly unlikely that we'll be picking that high over the next few years, and even if we do, I think we're better off starting the development clock on whoever is drafted this summer and not say in 2023 or 2024 once we finally keep a pick.

The whole deadline trade was about Altman and Bickerstaff not being willing to throw in the towel on the season. They could have reconsidered when Allen went out, we lost Rondo & LeVert, Garland hurt his back or when Mobley twisted his ankle but that's not the culture they're trying to build.

If the Cavs go down, hopefully they go down swinging. No reason to look beyond that.

[JonFromVA]

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

If we somehow kept the pick, I'd be much more inclined to trade it up to grab someone like AJ Griffin or grab a team need (like a backup PG/Wing) unless they have someone they really want in the 10-14 spot.

From what little I've heard, this isn't considered a very deep draft so it might be possible to trade up. The question is the price. For instance a lightly protected future first rounder might bump us up 4 spots or so?

I imagine the Knicks would consider trading their pick (and filler) for Sexton. I expect the Cavs would prefer someone ready to step-in and contribute right away, but maybe they'd see it as an extension of the LeVert trade?

[LivingLegend]

I just don't know that another opportunity to pick in the lottery will be forthcoming anytime soon. We've been absolutely crippled by injuries this season, and Fedor just reported that while Allen will be available for the post season, he won't be 100%. All of Booker, Mitchell, Mikal Bridges, Haliburton, and Vassel were late lottery picks.

I am like 60/40 on this. I am extremely torn because of the points you mentioned.

jbk believes LeVert is trash, so of course he wants a refund on the pick we gave up; but I'd much rather see more evidence that LeVert fits and can help this team. If that's enough to get us a win in the play-in ... cool ... but ultimately we're going to get what we deserve and if there's simply too many moving parts to get the team re-integrated in short order we will keep our pick.

And fwiw, if we strictly look at the 14th pick in the lottery, the players drafted there include: Moses Moody, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, Michael Porter Jr, Bam Adebayo, Denzel Valentine, Cam Payne, and TJ Warren.

Which tells me that unless we trade the pick, it would be silly to think of it as anything more than a roll of the dice on an investment in the future of the team. We can't pencil this player in as our starting SF and our short term roster planning covering the next few years should go on independent of the pick.

I just....dont care to bring another 20 year old into this locker room. Ive said it before but you already have enough 'youth' and core pieces. Time to start bringing in 'right now' players to win and maximize the youth of Garland/Mobley/Allen/Sexton/Okoro

As much as LeVert leaves a lot to be desired in some areas, I just dont believe waiting 3 years to find out if a another 20 year old can pan out is the answer. Especially one not in the top 10. hard pass. Its kicking the can further down the road and playing for 2026 and not 2023. This team has 2 All-Stars that are 23 years old and soon to be 3 All Stars once Mobley gets his due. Time to start playing for right now.

[toooskies]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

[LivingLegend]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

What about just taking Liddell in the 2nd round and call it a day. He is perplexing to me. He is BIG10 player of the year, is getting double teamed all over the place and is widely considered one of the best in college basketball--yet everytime I look at a mock draft he is going undrafted.

I will take a free EJ Liddell over worrying about a back-end lotto pick all day, every day, twice on sunday.

Seriously though, WHY is Liddell projected to go undrafted.....how. Because he is a tweener? I view him like a slightly less athletic version of Miles Bridges.

[jbk1234]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

*Future* all stars is doing some heavy lifting in that second group. Cam Johnson got real minutes in the Finals his rookie season. Rozier was a bargain on rookie contract. Saddiq Bey started for the Pistons his rookie year. Guys like Thybulle provided an immediate impact even if it wasn't scoring. I've got no problem with best available so long as he's not a guy who's going to burn through his entire rookie contract before he can contribute. Part of the value in picks at this point is they provide low cost rotation players for at least four years.

[toooskies]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

*Future* all stars is doing some heavy lifting in that second group. Cam Johnson got real minutes in the Finals his rookie season. Rozier was a bargain on rookie contract. Saddiq Bey started for the Pistons his rookie year. Guys like Thybulle provided an immediate impact even if it wasn't scoring. I've got no problem with best available so long as he's not a guy who's going to burn through his entire rookie contract before he can contribute. Part of the value in picks at this point is they provide low cost rotation players for at least four years.

My point was that you can find guys who can contribute right now but also have future upside with the 14th pick, so settling for a guy who won't have future upside isn't all that appealing. "NBA-ready for his age" would be fine. "NBA-ready because he's played 5 years in college" would not be fine.

[JonFromVA]

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

*Future* all stars is doing some heavy lifting in that second group. Cam Johnson got real minutes in the Finals his rookie season. Rozier was a bargain on rookie contract. Saddiq Bey started for the Pistons his rookie year. Guys like Thybulle provided an immediate impact even if it wasn't scoring. I've got no problem with best available so long as he's not a guy who's going to burn through his entire rookie contract before he can contribute. Part of the value in picks at this point is they provide low cost rotation players for at least four years.

My point was that you can find guys who can contribute right now but also have future upside with the 14th pick, so settling for a guy who won't have future upside isn't all that appealing. "NBA-ready for his age" would be fine. "NBA-ready because he's played 5 years in college" would not be fine.

In other words, every choice has trade offs, and preferring a player who can contribute sooner is simply one of the factors that might go in to a selection. The best way for the Cavs to avoid talent stagnation is to just keep developing young players.

[LivingLegend]

*Future* all stars is doing some heavy lifting in that second group. Cam Johnson got real minutes in the Finals his rookie season. Rozier was a bargain on rookie contract. Saddiq Bey started for the Pistons his rookie year. Guys like Thybulle provided an immediate impact even if it wasn't scoring. I've got no problem with best available so long as he's not a guy who's going to burn through his entire rookie contract before he can contribute. Part of the value in picks at this point is they provide low cost rotation players for at least four years.

My point was that you can find guys who can contribute right now but also have future upside with the 14th pick, so settling for a guy who won't have future upside isn't all that appealing. "NBA-ready for his age" would be fine. "NBA-ready because he's played 5 years in college" would not be fine.

In other words, every choice has trade offs, and preferring a player who can contribute sooner is simply one of the factors that might go in to a selection. The best way for the Cavs to avoid talent stagnation is to just keep developing young players.

They dont seem to have a problem doing that i.e. Wade, Stevens, Goodwin and those 3 players cost us zero.

[jbk1234]

I guess JB really lit into the officials from last night, which tbc, he should've. That was some really atrocious ref baiting by Embiid and Harden last night and apparently we have yet another point of emphasis that isn't surviving the regular season.

That aside, I really think this team would be better off with a late lottery pick than a best of seven series in the first round. We have a couple of needs that have to be addressed, limited ways of addressing, and the ability to select a more NBA ready player even if his ceiling isn't quite so high.

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

What about just taking Liddell in the 2nd round and call it a day. He is perplexing to me. He is BIG10 player of the year, is getting double teamed all over the place and is widely considered one of the best in college basketball--yet everytime I look at a mock draft he is going undrafted.

I will take a free EJ Liddell over worrying about a back-end lotto pick all day, every day, twice on sunday.

Seriously though, WHY is Liddell projected to go undrafted.....how. Because he is a tweener? I view him like a slightly less athletic version of Miles Bridges.

He's not really a tweener. He's a short, overweight PF. He's got zero shot at playing SF in the NBA. I wouldn't mind giving him a camp invite but he doesn't address a need and would end up at our deepest position.

[JonFromVA]

My point was that you can find guys who can contribute right now but also have future upside with the 14th pick, so settling for a guy who won't have future upside isn't all that appealing. "NBA-ready for his age" would be fine. "NBA-ready because he's played 5 years in college" would not be fine.

In other words, every choice has trade offs, and preferring a player who can contribute sooner is simply one of the factors that might go in to a selection. The best way for the Cavs to avoid talent stagnation is to just keep developing young players.

They dont seem to have a problem doing that i.e. Wade, Stevens, Goodwin and those 3 players cost us zero.

I'm glad we have those guys to fill out our bench, but late first round and even some of those high second round picks can be developed in to starters at a decent clip if we can somehow keep drafting and developing. That's how our team can be replenished, players replaced, trades fueled, etc.

This last draft was such a rich one, even second round picks like Herbert Jones and Ayo Dosummu are making an immediate impact and would have been great additions if we had a second round pick last year.

[toooskies]

In other words, every choice has trade offs, and preferring a player who can contribute sooner is simply one of the factors that might go in to a selection. The best way for the Cavs to avoid talent stagnation is to just keep developing young players.

They dont seem to have a problem doing that i.e. Wade, Stevens, Goodwin and those 3 players cost us zero.

I'm glad we have those guys to fill out our bench, but late first round and even some of those high second round picks can be developed in to starters at a decent clip if we can somehow keep drafting and developing. That's how our team can be replenished, players replaced, trades fueled, etc.

This last draft was such a rich one, even second round picks like Herbert Jones and Ayo Dosummu are making an immediate impact and would have been great additions if we had a second round pick last year.

There are finds in the second round, but most of the time those finds are realistically 5th starter upside. But we still have two 2nds in this draft (SA and Miami), so we can look for veteran talent with those. A lottery pick OTOH is not something you necessarily want to limit your upside with, though.

I'd like to grab a Mark Williams or Walker Kessler type of C who can back up Allen and has NBA size already, or a big wing creator/shooter (Mathurin or maybe Eason?) who'd be a natural fit if/when Markkanen inherits Love's role. I don't see many PGs I like in that range, I don't see many who are both effective passers and decent college shooters.

2nd round, I love the conference POY types who don't evaluate at an elite level in terms of physical traits, so count me in on Tshiebwe or Gillespie or Alondes Williams.

[LivingLegend]

"NBA-ready" is really a term applied to guys who stayed in college and developed more physically and overwhelmed their college competition. Let's take a look at mid-round 1st rounders that were a little older.

The list of players of age 21+ picked between #8 and #20 since 2012: Chris Duarte, Corey Kispert, Davion Mitchell, Trey Murphy, Precious Achiuwa, Saddiq Bey, Aaron Nesmith, Obi Toppin, Rui Hachimura, Cam Johnson, Matisse Thybulle, Mikal Bridges, Donte DiVincenzo, Jerome Robinson, Justin Jackson, DJ Wilson, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince, Denzel Valentine, Sam Dekker, Jerian Grant, Frank Kaminsky, Terry Rozier, Delon Wright, Doug McDermott, Adreian Payne, Michael Carter-Williams, CJ McCollum, Kelly Olynyk, Tony Snell, John Henson, Andrew Nicholson, Terrence Ross, Royce White, Tyler Zeller.

First thing to note is not a lot of those guys proved to actually be NBA-ready. I'm not sure any of 2021's older guys are going to make all-rookie teams, although Duarte has a chance. Guys like Achiuwa and Nesmith are barely making rotations. Plenty of guys are given a shot because of their draft slot and then wash out of the league, like Valentine and Dekker.

Of that list, there's only a few guys who played their 1st and 2nd years at high enough level to actually contribute right away, and a handful more that were at Lamar Stevens/Dean Wade's current levels of play. Caris LeVert might be the 3rd or 4th best guy on that list. Really just one guy you expect to be an all-star quality player (Bridges).

There's (a lot) more 20-or-under guys obviously, but that pool of guys in the #8-#20 range had all-stars/future all-stars like Franz Wagner, Haliburton, Herro, Sexton, SGA, Miles Bridges, MPJ, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, Giannis, Drummond. All-star upside along with guys who have a chance to contribute right away.

So let's just take the best guy available at just about any position besides PF.

(Or trade it for a later 1st and a rotation upgrade.)

What about just taking Liddell in the 2nd round and call it a day. He is perplexing to me. He is BIG10 player of the year, is getting double teamed all over the place and is widely considered one of the best in college basketball--yet everytime I look at a mock draft he is going undrafted.

I will take a free EJ Liddell over worrying about a back-end lotto pick all day, every day, twice on sunday.

Seriously though, WHY is Liddell projected to go undrafted.....how. Because he is a tweener? I view him like a slightly less athletic version of Miles Bridges.

He's not really a tweener. He's a short, overweight PF. He's got zero shot at playing SF in the NBA. I wouldn't mind giving him a camp invite but he doesn't address a need and would end up at our deepest position.

He is the same height as Miles Bridges and 10lbs heavier. They actually play a very similar style of game as well. Bridges being more athletic but Liddell having a much better finesse game.

It looks like his body is 1 NBA offseason with a real NBA trainer away from being absolutely jacked. he was a littlee bit bigger last year but you could tell he shed a lot of weight coming into his senior year to play SF.

For a 2nd round pick--I would easily take him. The Cavs need all of the skilled 6'7" 3-level scoring, conference leading shot blocking wing players they can get their hands on and develop. Follow the Raptors offseason playbook.

Basically what Im saying is that I would rather have LeVert + Liddell over NBA prospect #14

[toooskies]

He's not fat, but he's got a big frame. More of a Draymond Green/PJ Tucker build-- 6'5.5" barefoot at the combine last year, 243 pounds. He's 6.5 inches shorter than Mobley and 25 pounds heavier.

Didn't watch a lot of OSU basketball, but a youtube highlight reel reminds me a lot of how Lamar Stevens gets his points, except he's got a 3-point shot too. Wouldn't mind "better Lamar Stevens with a 3-point shot and some rim protection", there are worse draft outcomes.

Edit: Both ESPN and The Ringer have Liddell as a mid-to-late 1st rounder, so we probably need to take him at 14 or trade down a few spots.

[jbk1234]

He's not fat, but he's got a big frame. More of a Draymond Green/PJ Tucker build-- 6'5.5" barefoot at the combine last year, 243 pounds. He's 6.5 inches shorter than Mobley and 25 pounds heavier.

Didn't watch a lot of OSU basketball, but a youtube highlight reel reminds me a lot of how Lamar Stevens gets his points, except he's got a 3-point shot too. Wouldn't mind "better Lamar Stevens with a 3-point shot and some rim protection", there are worse draft outcomes.

Edit: Both ESPN and The Ringer have Liddell as a mid-to-late 1st rounder, so we probably need to take him at 14 or trade down a few spots.

I want you to know that I'm exercising max restraint right now.