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[JujitsuFlip]

Imo you need to start your best players so Garland needs to start. If he works better in other lineups so be it, but he should be getting starter minutes, but could be staggered w DMitch.

I really want to see what Atkinson can do to unlock synergy between our two all-star guards

Yeah, I really don't think people appreciate how easy the Cavs will be for playoff teams to defend if Mitchell is the only triple threat on the floor. Also, if the Cavs eventually decide that starting both Garland and Mitchell doesn't work, you trade one of them for a triple threat - preferably at SF. You don't move your $40M PG to the bench.

And we've seen the only playmaking threat be nullified with double/triple teams recently in a Cavs jersey. Garland in 2021-22.

I think what makes those guys dangerous is they are both so dynamic, but Atkinson needs to make them work to refine their off-ball skills when they are both on the floor

One is gonna have to play the Steph/Klay role of not over dribbling and running around off ball to get free.

If our offensive is gonna start at the elbow or top of the key with Mobley initiating things, we need shooters to come free and light teams up.

[JonFromVA]

You know my thing, the larger the sample size the better as it's more likely to include games against playoff-caliber teams and data against the teams who don't get in is of limited predictive value for the postseason. As well as the Cavs appeared to play without Garland during the regular season, they only played 12 playoff teams with him out, and they lost half of those games. The year before, there was ample evidence that we struggled to score against good teams in the 4th quarter long before we ran into the Knicks.

We can rattle off all the factors for pages which is all part of the story, but the numbers no matter how small the volume still reflect reality. We need lineups that work, unless there's some specific strategy we're shooting for ... like the starters wear down the other team with defense, and then the reserves come in and toast them.

And if that's the idea, the numbers suggest Strus would be better being part of the reserve group.

It's 2024 and the Cavs have 3 bigs on their roster, maybe 4. That can't be the strategy. And even if it is the strategy, Garland shouldn't start, dude is a turnstile. At that point go...

Mitchell
Okoro
Wade
Mobley
Allen

Then off the bench you stagger guys in.

Garland
Strus
LeVert
Niang
TT

Can use Merrill situationally for shooting.

Have Tyson and TJ battle out for the 12th man role in camp. Kenny historically never played more than 11 guys real minutes in the rotation.

Garland's defense was fine in '22/'23 when he wasn't eating through a straw. We led the league that season and our drtg was the same regardless of whether he was on or off the floor.

[jbk1234]

We can rattle off all the factors for pages which is all part of the story, but the numbers no matter how small the volume still reflect reality. We need lineups that work, unless there's some specific strategy we're shooting for ... like the starters wear down the other team with defense, and then the reserves come in and toast them.

And if that's the idea, the numbers suggest Strus would be better being part of the reserve group.

It's 2024 and the Cavs have 3 bigs on their roster, maybe 4. That can't be the strategy. And even if it is the strategy, Garland shouldn't start, dude is a turnstile. At that point go...

Mitchell
Okoro
Wade
Mobley
Allen

Then off the bench you stagger guys in.

Garland
Strus
LeVert
Niang
TT

Can use Merrill situationally for shooting.

Have Tyson and TJ battle out for the 12th man role in camp. Kenny historically never played more than 11 guys real minutes in the rotation.

Garland's defense was fine in '22/'23 when he wasn't eating through a straw. We led the league that season and our drtg was the same regardless of whether he was on or off the floor.

I think Garland's off-ball defense tends to get underrated as well. He's up there in steals per game among PGs. He does a good job of playing the passing lanes.

[toooskies]

It's 2024 and the Cavs have 3 bigs on their roster, maybe 4. That can't be the strategy. And even if it is the strategy, Garland shouldn't start, dude is a turnstile. At that point go...

Mitchell
Okoro
Wade
Mobley
Allen

Then off the bench you stagger guys in.

Garland
Strus
LeVert
Niang
TT

Can use Merrill situationally for shooting.

Have Tyson and TJ battle out for the 12th man role in camp. Kenny historically never played more than 11 guys real minutes in the rotation.

Garland's defense was fine in '22/'23 when he wasn't eating through a straw. We led the league that season and our drtg was the same regardless of whether he was on or off the floor.

I think Garland's off-ball defense tends to get underrated as well. He's up there in steals per game among PGs. He does a good job of playing the passing lanes.

Garland's fine but I think the team gets in trouble when they play him and Merrill together, and could be the same if they play him and Jerome together. No wingspan on any of them, and it gets hard to hide more than one of them.

(I think Merrill should be Garland's backup in the rotation even if he's not going to be the PG in those minutes.)

[jbk1234]

Garland's defense was fine in '22/'23 when he wasn't eating through a straw. We led the league that season and our drtg was the same regardless of whether he was on or off the floor.

I think Garland's off-ball defense tends to get underrated as well. He's up there in steals per game among PGs. He does a good job of playing the passing lanes.

Garland's fine but I think the team gets in trouble when they play him and Merrill together, and could be the same if they play him and Jerome together. No wingspan on any of them, and it gets hard to hide more than one of them.

(I think Merrill should be Garland's backup in the rotation even if he's not going to be the PG in those minutes.)

It was particularly bad when JBB would play all of Garland, Merrill, and Niang together in the same unit. In fairness to JBB, his options were pretty limited once CPJ experienced difficulty just getting the ball over the halfcourt line against press defenses, both Mobley and Wade were out with injuries, and TT was a shell of his PED self.

We've really only added Ty Jerome and Tyson to the back third of our bench. Maybe Thor can show something but I'm skeptical.

[JonFromVA]

I think Garland's off-ball defense tends to get underrated as well. He's up there in steals per game among PGs. He does a good job of playing the passing lanes.

Garland's fine but I think the team gets in trouble when they play him and Merrill together, and could be the same if they play him and Jerome together. No wingspan on any of them, and it gets hard to hide more than one of them.

(I think Merrill should be Garland's backup in the rotation even if he's not going to be the PG in those minutes.)

It was particularly bad when JBB would play all of Garland, Merrill, and Niang together in the same unit. In fairness to JBB, his options were pretty limited once CPJ experienced difficulty just getting the ball over the halfcourt line against press defenses, both Mobley and Wade were out with injuries, and TT was a shell of his PED self.

We've really only added Ty Jerome and Tyson to the back third of our bench. Maybe Thor can show something but I'm skeptical.

My issue with JBB is he never went all in with a floor spacing lineup until he was forced to by injury. It's ok to sacrifice defense for offense, it's problematic when you get neither.

[jbk1234]

Garland's fine but I think the team gets in trouble when they play him and Merrill together, and could be the same if they play him and Jerome together. No wingspan on any of them, and it gets hard to hide more than one of them.

(I think Merrill should be Garland's backup in the rotation even if he's not going to be the PG in those minutes.)

It was particularly bad when JBB would play all of Garland, Merrill, and Niang together in the same unit. In fairness to JBB, his options were pretty limited once CPJ experienced difficulty just getting the ball over the halfcourt line against press defenses, both Mobley and Wade were out with injuries, and TT was a shell of his PED self.

We've really only added Ty Jerome and Tyson to the back third of our bench. Maybe Thor can show something but I'm skeptical.

My issue with JBB is he never went all in with a floor spacing lineup until he was forced to by injury. It's ok to sacrifice defense for offense, it's problematic when you get neither.

It's really, really difficult to play three bad defenders at once. It's no different than putting three non-shooters on the floor.

[JonFromVA]

It was particularly bad when JBB would play all of Garland, Merrill, and Niang together in the same unit. In fairness to JBB, his options were pretty limited once CPJ experienced difficulty just getting the ball over the halfcourt line against press defenses, both Mobley and Wade were out with injuries, and TT was a shell of his PED self.

We've really only added Ty Jerome and Tyson to the back third of our bench. Maybe Thor can show something but I'm skeptical.

My issue with JBB is he never went all in with a floor spacing lineup until he was forced to by injury. It's ok to sacrifice defense for offense, it's problematic when you get neither.

It's really, really difficult to play three bad defenders at once. It's no different than putting three non-shooters on the floor.

Most of Merrill's 3 man lineups were positive, and his lineup with Niang and Thompson was +10.

Here's hoping we have a coach with a feel for the game who's willing to adjust his lineups based on what's working and who the opponent is.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/merrisa01/lineups/2024

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.fearthesword.com/2024/9/26/24255423/detroit-pistons-sign-cleveland-cavaliers-junkyard-dog-lamar-stevens-training-camp-deal-bickerstaff

Our guy Stevens found his way back to jb.

[JujitsuFlip]

Kudos to the Knicks, they have did such a good job building around Brunson. I wish Koby would take some notes, the fit over there is spectacular.

Since Brunson signed in the summer of 2022 the Knicks turned Reddish, Arcidiacono, Mykhailiuk, RJ, IQ, Shake, Bogi, Diakite, Jefferies, Randle, and DDV into Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT.

4 quality starters next to Brunson, all acquired via trade.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Hart
KAT

[JonFromVA]

Kudos to the Knicks, they have did such a good job building around Brunson. I wish Koby would take some notes, the fit over there is spectacular.

Since Brunson signed in the summer of 2022 the Knicks turned Reddish, Arcidiacono, Mykhailiuk, RJ, IQ, Shake, Bogi, Diakite, Jefferies, Randle, and DDV into Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT.

4 quality starters next to Brunson, all acquired via trade.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Hart
KAT

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

[JujitsuFlip]

Kudos to the Knicks, they have did such a good job building around Brunson. I wish Koby would take some notes, the fit over there is spectacular.

Since Brunson signed in the summer of 2022 the Knicks turned Reddish, Arcidiacono, Mykhailiuk, RJ, IQ, Shake, Bogi, Diakite, Jefferies, Randle, and DDV into Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT.

4 quality starters next to Brunson, all acquired via trade.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Hart
KAT

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

[toooskies]

Kudos to the Knicks, they have did such a good job building around Brunson. I wish Koby would take some notes, the fit over there is spectacular.

Since Brunson signed in the summer of 2022 the Knicks turned Reddish, Arcidiacono, Mykhailiuk, RJ, IQ, Shake, Bogi, Diakite, Jefferies, Randle, and DDV into Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT.

4 quality starters next to Brunson, all acquired via trade.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Hart
KAT

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

Teams never have success the first year they make drastic changes. The Knicks now have different players at 3 of their 5 starting spots than last year, and 4 if you go back to December.

I guess they can play big with KAT/Robinson, but they really don't have much rim protection. OG might be able to play the 4 but he loses value if he's not shutting down the other team's primary scorer.

They're built to match up with the Celtics. I think we have an edge against them inside when both bigs are healthy.

[JujitsuFlip]

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

Teams never have success the first year they make drastic changes. The Knicks now have different players at 3 of their 5 starting spots than last year, and 4 if you go back to December.

I guess they can play big with KAT/Robinson, but they really don't have much rim protection. OG might be able to play the 4 but he loses value if he's not shutting down the other team's primary scorer.

They're built to match up with the Celtics. I think we have an edge against them inside when both bigs are healthy.

They already owned the Cavs and now i want zero parts of them in a 7 game series. That team is scary. Their lack of depth isn't an issue either, because Thibs plays such a tight rotation.

Yeah, i have them and the Celtics as 1a and 1b in the East.

[toooskies]

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

Teams never have success the first year they make drastic changes. The Knicks now have different players at 3 of their 5 starting spots than last year, and 4 if you go back to December.

I guess they can play big with KAT/Robinson, but they really don't have much rim protection. OG might be able to play the 4 but he loses value if he's not shutting down the other team's primary scorer.

They're built to match up with the Celtics. I think we have an edge against them inside when both bigs are healthy.

They already owned the Cavs and now i want zero parts of them in a 7 game series. That team is scary. Their lack of depth isn't an issue either, because Thibs plays such a tight rotation.

Yeah, i have them and the Celtics as 1a and 1b in the East.

Thibs plays a tight rotation that gets guys hurt.

The Knicks roster only has three guys left that got minutes on the team that beat us in the playoffs two years ago.

[JonFromVA]

Kudos to the Knicks, they have did such a good job building around Brunson. I wish Koby would take some notes, the fit over there is spectacular.

Since Brunson signed in the summer of 2022 the Knicks turned Reddish, Arcidiacono, Mykhailiuk, RJ, IQ, Shake, Bogi, Diakite, Jefferies, Randle, and DDV into Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT.

4 quality starters next to Brunson, all acquired via trade.

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Hart
KAT

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

fwiw, I really do enjoy watching a team grow organically; but if we do have to make trades for fit, I'd prefer not to bleed value in the process. We have a lot banking on Kenny no matter which way Altman decides to take the team.

[JonFromVA]

That's crazy that they KAT for Randle, DDV, and a pick.

Team has evolved SO much since Brunson joined.

It's the mold i always talk about. A solid scoring ball handler, a stretch 5, and three wing defenders.

Knicks really made it happen. I think the Cavs have S&T for Strus in the same timeframe lol if it was an arms race, Cavs are severely behind.

Teams never have success the first year they make drastic changes. The Knicks now have different players at 3 of their 5 starting spots than last year, and 4 if you go back to December.

I guess they can play big with KAT/Robinson, but they really don't have much rim protection. OG might be able to play the 4 but he loses value if he's not shutting down the other team's primary scorer.

They're built to match up with the Celtics. I think we have an edge against them inside when both bigs are healthy.

Which is hopefully a key point for the Cavs. Our two big lineup causes us problems in terms of spacing, that doesn't mean there aren't ways to leverage it against smaller/slower frontcourts.

[JujitsuFlip]

Teams never have success the first year they make drastic changes. The Knicks now have different players at 3 of their 5 starting spots than last year, and 4 if you go back to December.

I guess they can play big with KAT/Robinson, but they really don't have much rim protection. OG might be able to play the 4 but he loses value if he's not shutting down the other team's primary scorer.

They're built to match up with the Celtics. I think we have an edge against them inside when both bigs are healthy.

They already owned the Cavs and now i want zero parts of them in a 7 game series. That team is scary. Their lack of depth isn't an issue either, because Thibs plays such a tight rotation.

Yeah, i have them and the Celtics as 1a and 1b in the East.

Thibs plays a tight rotation that gets guys hurt.

The Knicks roster only has three guys left that got minutes on the team that beat us in the playoffs two years ago.

True but it's not like they have downgraded, they're all upgrades. OG and Bridges are on par with Jrue and White, as far as defense goes.

[toooskies]

They already owned the Cavs and now i want zero parts of them in a 7 game series. That team is scary. Their lack of depth isn't an issue either, because Thibs plays such a tight rotation.

Yeah, i have them and the Celtics as 1a and 1b in the East.

Thibs plays a tight rotation that gets guys hurt.

The Knicks roster only has three guys left that got minutes on the team that beat us in the playoffs two years ago.

True but it's not like they have downgraded, they're all upgrades. OG and Bridges are on par with Jrue and White, as far as defense goes.

Their bench has lost a ton of depth.

[JujitsuFlip]

Thibs plays a tight rotation that gets guys hurt.

The Knicks roster only has three guys left that got minutes on the team that beat us in the playoffs two years ago.

True but it's not like they have downgraded, they're all upgrades. OG and Bridges are on par with Jrue and White, as far as defense goes.

Their bench has lost a ton of depth.

Long as they stay healthy, shouldn't matter. Celtics just won a title playing 8 guys and the Nuggets won a title the year before playing 8 guys.

Going 12 deep is awesome for the regular season, just not feasible in the playoffs.

Can they make it to the playoffs healthy? Time will tell. Health, luck, and talent are how championships are won.