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[JujitsuFlip]

Randle's a better passer. KAT is a better shooter. They both are notably worse in the Playoffs, unless you think KAT suddenly had a switch flip in his head last year. I think Ant knew how to press his buttons correctly and I'm not sure the same is going to be true in NY where KAT will have all his buttons pushed by the media.

Mikal Bridges' D-LEBRON the past 6 seasons:
2021-22 1.18
2022-23 0.25
2023-24 -0.81

DARKO has his D-DPM at -0.41.
His BBRef DBPM was -1.0. His DRtg was 118 last year, just a hair better than Cam Thomas's 119.

Not saying he can't get back to his previous heights on D but the trend started before he got traded to Brooklyn, so I'm going to have to see it turn around to believe it. (Donovan Mitchell cleared Bridges in all the above stats the past two years, btw.)

And everyone is saying KAT was the reason the Wolves made it to the WCF due to slowing down Jokic, why Nuggets fans were so stoked on the trade.

How much are those metrics influenced by teammates? Because Spida plays with 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game the past 2 seasons. Meanwhile, Bridges has been on one of the worst teams in the NBA for 1.5 of those seasons.

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

It is probably both things you mentioned. Wear and tear from playing every game but also fatigue from trying to be a number 1 option on offense.

I think he'll settle back in on the Knicks, he will be asked to do much less on offense now. OG is for sure a better defender than him and Hart is no slouch, so that should help, even if he's slipped a bit.

[toooskies]

And everyone is saying KAT was the reason the Wolves made it to the WCF due to slowing down Jokic, why Nuggets fans were so stoked on the trade.

How much are those metrics influenced by teammates? Because Spida plays with 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game the past 2 seasons. Meanwhile, Bridges has been on one of the worst teams in the NBA for 1.5 of those seasons.

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

It is probably both things you mentioned. Wear and tear from playing every game but also fatigue from trying to be a number 1 option on offense.

I think he'll settle back in on the Knicks, he will be asked to do much less on offense now. OG is for sure a better defender than him and Hart is no slouch, so that should help, even if he's slipped a bit.

He might not have to score as much, but as we've discussed, outside of Brunson there isn't any playmaking on that Knicks team.

[JujitsuFlip]

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

It is probably both things you mentioned. Wear and tear from playing every game but also fatigue from trying to be a number 1 option on offense.

I think he'll settle back in on the Knicks, he will be asked to do much less on offense now. OG is for sure a better defender than him and Hart is no slouch, so that should help, even if he's slipped a bit.

He might not have to score as much, but as we've discussed, outside of Brunson there isn't any playmaking on that Knicks team.

I don't think it matters too much. There wasn't before the KAT trade either. I think any single one of the players on the Knicks can average 5 assists per game while turning it over 3.5 times per game, not like an efficient ball handler was removed from the fold.

[JonFromVA]

Randle's a better passer. KAT is a better shooter. They both are notably worse in the Playoffs, unless you think KAT suddenly had a switch flip in his head last year. I think Ant knew how to press his buttons correctly and I'm not sure the same is going to be true in NY where KAT will have all his buttons pushed by the media.

Mikal Bridges' D-LEBRON the past 6 seasons:
2021-22 1.18
2022-23 0.25
2023-24 -0.81

DARKO has his D-DPM at -0.41.
His BBRef DBPM was -1.0. His DRtg was 118 last year, just a hair better than Cam Thomas's 119.

Not saying he can't get back to his previous heights on D but the trend started before he got traded to Brooklyn, so I'm going to have to see it turn around to believe it. (Donovan Mitchell cleared Bridges in all the above stats the past two years, btw.)

And everyone is saying KAT was the reason the Wolves made it to the WCF due to slowing down Jokic, why Nuggets fans were so stoked on the trade.

How much are those metrics influenced by teammates? Because Spida plays with 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game the past 2 seasons. Meanwhile, Bridges has been on one of the worst teams in the NBA for 1.5 of those seasons.

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

BBR DRtg is a **** box score influenced stat no matter how you slice it.

Actual DRtg says the Nets were slightly better with Bridges on the floor defensively than off.

Most players can't dramatically increase their usage and still do everything they used to do when they had a lower usage.

[toooskies]

And everyone is saying KAT was the reason the Wolves made it to the WCF due to slowing down Jokic, why Nuggets fans were so stoked on the trade.

How much are those metrics influenced by teammates? Because Spida plays with 2 of the best defensive bigs in the game the past 2 seasons. Meanwhile, Bridges has been on one of the worst teams in the NBA for 1.5 of those seasons.

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

BBR DRtg is a **** box score influenced stat no matter how you slice it.

Actual DRtg says the Nets were slightly better with Bridges on the floor defensively than off.

Most players can't dramatically increase their usage and still do everything they used to do when they had a lower usage.

I wouldn't say any individual defensive stat isn't bad. You need to take them as a whole, figure out how they came to their conclusions, and understand them as a whole. But congratulations on finding one that paints Bridges as making his 20th ranked defensive team "slightly better" when he was rotating with Spencer Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas in the backcourt.

I'm just saying that's a massive drop from when he was #2 in DPOY voting in Phoenix, particularly since his usage wasn't particularly high last year-- 24.3% is typical 2nd/3rd option usage rather than 1st option.

[JonFromVA]

Yes, defensive stats often are influenced by teammates. But even within his own team his defensive stats are bad. Not only did Bridges have a bad DRtg, he had one of the worst on his team. (16th out of 21.) While DRtg is usually not valid to compare between teams, within a team it will tell you who is always part of their best defensive lineups. Bridges was third-last in D-LEBRON on his own team. Fifth-last in D-DPM.

Maybe he's pacing himself defensively while taking an offensive load. Or maybe he's accumulating the wear-and-tear that guys like Tristan Thompson have shown when iron-manning their way through too many seasons. But his defensive production has dropped in every measure I've checked. He's been coasting on reputation, whereas a guy like Alex Caruso still plays good D when on a mediocre team.

BBR DRtg is a **** box score influenced stat no matter how you slice it.

Actual DRtg says the Nets were slightly better with Bridges on the floor defensively than off.

Most players can't dramatically increase their usage and still do everything they used to do when they had a lower usage.

I wouldn't say any individual defensive stat isn't bad. You need to take them as a whole, figure out how they came to their conclusions, and understand them as a whole. But congratulations on finding one that paints Bridges as making his 20th ranked defensive team "slightly better" when he was rotating with Spencer Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas in the backcourt.

I'm just saying that's a massive drop from when he was #2 in DPOY voting in Phoenix, particularly since his usage wasn't particularly high last year-- 24.3% is typical 2nd/3rd option usage rather than 1st option.

Just saying if you want to look at DRtg then look at DRtg. The BBR number is telling us that other guys on the Nets are contributing more in the defensive box score categories like rebounds, steals, and blocks. Which are certainly not meaningless, but are affected by role and coaching. If you want to dig deeper look at the lineups and consider Bridges was the most available Net so he played with both the Nets best lineups and their worse. If you're looking for the weak link in the Nets defense, consider Cam Thomas (the Nets were 6.5 pp100 better defensively when he was off then floor than on).

As for his usage, you really want to compare how he was used in Phoenix .vs. how he's being used in Brooklyn. His role and even his usage shot up from 15 to 25. Ego always plays a role too. Once someone is tagged as a star they often decide giving full effort on defense is somebody else's job.

IMO, I expect he will look better on a more balanced team.

[toooskies]

BBR DRtg is a **** box score influenced stat no matter how you slice it.

Actual DRtg says the Nets were slightly better with Bridges on the floor defensively than off.

Most players can't dramatically increase their usage and still do everything they used to do when they had a lower usage.

I wouldn't say any individual defensive stat isn't bad. You need to take them as a whole, figure out how they came to their conclusions, and understand them as a whole. But congratulations on finding one that paints Bridges as making his 20th ranked defensive team "slightly better" when he was rotating with Spencer Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas in the backcourt.

I'm just saying that's a massive drop from when he was #2 in DPOY voting in Phoenix, particularly since his usage wasn't particularly high last year-- 24.3% is typical 2nd/3rd option usage rather than 1st option.

Just saying if you want to look at DRtg then look at DRtg. The BBR number is telling us that other guys on the Nets are contributing more in the defensive box score categories like rebounds, steals, and blocks. Which are certainly not meaningless, but are affected by role and coaching. If you want to dig deeper look at the lineups and consider Bridges was the most available Net so he played with both the Nets best lineups and their worse. If you're looking for the weak link in the Nets defense, consider Cam Thomas (the Nets were 6.5 pp100 better defensively when he was off then floor than on).

As for his usage, you really want to compare how he was used in Phoenix .vs. how he's being used in Brooklyn. His role and even his usage shot up from 15 to 25. Ego always plays a role too. Once someone is tagged as a star they often decide giving full effort on defense is somebody else's job.

IMO, I expect he will look better on a more balanced team.

They did not trade for Bridges for him to be a 15% usage player. That's nearly Okoro-level usage.

[JujitsuFlip]

I wouldn't say any individual defensive stat isn't bad. You need to take them as a whole, figure out how they came to their conclusions, and understand them as a whole. But congratulations on finding one that paints Bridges as making his 20th ranked defensive team "slightly better" when he was rotating with Spencer Dinwiddie and Cam Thomas in the backcourt.

I'm just saying that's a massive drop from when he was #2 in DPOY voting in Phoenix, particularly since his usage wasn't particularly high last year-- 24.3% is typical 2nd/3rd option usage rather than 1st option.

Just saying if you want to look at DRtg then look at DRtg. The BBR number is telling us that other guys on the Nets are contributing more in the defensive box score categories like rebounds, steals, and blocks. Which are certainly not meaningless, but are affected by role and coaching. If you want to dig deeper look at the lineups and consider Bridges was the most available Net so he played with both the Nets best lineups and their worse. If you're looking for the weak link in the Nets defense, consider Cam Thomas (the Nets were 6.5 pp100 better defensively when he was off then floor than on).

As for his usage, you really want to compare how he was used in Phoenix .vs. how he's being used in Brooklyn. His role and even his usage shot up from 15 to 25. Ego always plays a role too. Once someone is tagged as a star they often decide giving full effort on defense is somebody else's job.

IMO, I expect he will look better on a more balanced team.

They did not trade for Bridges for him to be a 15% usage player. That's nearly Okoro-level usage.

Where do you believe Bridges is in the offensive pecking order?

I have him no higher than 3rd.

Brunson is the clear #1 and i think it is easy to beleive KAT will be the #2. Honestly, there may be a case for OG to finish more possessions than Bridges, just depending on the situation.

[toooskies]

Just saying if you want to look at DRtg then look at DRtg. The BBR number is telling us that other guys on the Nets are contributing more in the defensive box score categories like rebounds, steals, and blocks. Which are certainly not meaningless, but are affected by role and coaching. If you want to dig deeper look at the lineups and consider Bridges was the most available Net so he played with both the Nets best lineups and their worse. If you're looking for the weak link in the Nets defense, consider Cam Thomas (the Nets were 6.5 pp100 better defensively when he was off then floor than on).

As for his usage, you really want to compare how he was used in Phoenix .vs. how he's being used in Brooklyn. His role and even his usage shot up from 15 to 25. Ego always plays a role too. Once someone is tagged as a star they often decide giving full effort on defense is somebody else's job.

IMO, I expect he will look better on a more balanced team.

They did not trade for Bridges for him to be a 15% usage player. That's nearly Okoro-level usage.

Where do you believe Bridges is in the offensive pecking order?

I have him no higher than 3rd.

Brunson is the clear #1 and i think it is easy to beleive KAT will be the #2. Honestly, there may be a case for OG to finish more possessions than Bridges, just depending on the situation.

Is that what the Knicks paid for when they traded for him? He's clearly supposed to be a #2B at worst or else he's not nearly worth what they paid. And if not then they need him to recover all the way defensively.

[JujitsuFlip]

They did not trade for Bridges for him to be a 15% usage player. That's nearly Okoro-level usage.

Where do you believe Bridges is in the offensive pecking order?

I have him no higher than 3rd.

Brunson is the clear #1 and i think it is easy to beleive KAT will be the #2. Honestly, there may be a case for OG to finish more possessions than Bridges, just depending on the situation.

Is that what the Knicks paid for when they traded for him? He's clearly supposed to be a #2B at worst or else he's not nearly worth what they paid. And if not then they need him to recover all the way defensively.

I think they paid to get the Suns defensive version of him. Usage% is who is finishing possessions. So maybe from kick outs and backdoors he is the 3rd option but like i said, that easily could be OG.

I see no scenario where offense should run through Bridges before KAT, makes no sense.

[toooskies]

Where do you believe Bridges is in the offensive pecking order?

I have him no higher than 3rd.

Brunson is the clear #1 and i think it is easy to beleive KAT will be the #2. Honestly, there may be a case for OG to finish more possessions than Bridges, just depending on the situation.

Is that what the Knicks paid for when they traded for him? He's clearly supposed to be a #2B at worst or else he's not nearly worth what they paid. And if not then they need him to recover all the way defensively.

I think they paid to get the Suns defensive version of him. Usage% is who is finishing possessions. So maybe from kick outs and backdoors he is the 3rd option but like i said, that easily could be OG.

I see no scenario where offense should run through Bridges before KAT, makes no sense.

They could've paid far less for Caruso, Okoro, Herb Jones, or McDaniels.

[JujitsuFlip]

Is that what the Knicks paid for when they traded for him? He's clearly supposed to be a #2B at worst or else he's not nearly worth what they paid. And if not then they need him to recover all the way defensively.

I think they paid to get the Suns defensive version of him. Usage% is who is finishing possessions. So maybe from kick outs and backdoors he is the 3rd option but like i said, that easily could be OG.

I see no scenario where offense should run through Bridges before KAT, makes no sense.

They could've paid far less for Caruso, Okoro, Herb Jones, or McDaniels.

10.1 ppg, 9.6 ppg, 11.0 ppg, and 10.6 ppg.

They don't need their 3rd option to score 26.1 ppg but they need him to bring more offensively than anything those 4 guys have shown.

Pretty positive not a single one of those guys was available outside of Okoro anyways. Doesn't matter if an item is cheaper, if it's not for sale.

[toooskies]

I think they paid to get the Suns defensive version of him. Usage% is who is finishing possessions. So maybe from kick outs and backdoors he is the 3rd option but like i said, that easily could be OG.

I see no scenario where offense should run through Bridges before KAT, makes no sense.

They could've paid far less for Caruso, Okoro, Herb Jones, or McDaniels.

10.1 ppg, 9.6 ppg, 11.0 ppg, and 10.6 ppg.

They don't need their 3rd option to score 26.1 ppg but they need him to bring more offensively than anything those 4 guys have shown.

Pretty positive not a single one of those guys was available outside of Okoro anyways. Doesn't matter if an item is cheaper, if it's not for sale.

I'm sure they would've been available for a price somewhere below six 1sts or whatever Bridges pulled. Caruso was literally traded for Josh Giddey.

Bridges might've been scoring 14ppg in PHX while making All-Defense, but he was also leading the league in minutes played. All those guys scored 12-13ppg. And you said Bridges might be the 4th option behind OG.

I'm just saying we haven't seen Bridges be elite at D since he emerged on O and while a Knicks optimist might expect him to be great at both, he hasn't done that yet.

[JujitsuFlip]

They could've paid far less for Caruso, Okoro, Herb Jones, or McDaniels.

10.1 ppg, 9.6 ppg, 11.0 ppg, and 10.6 ppg.

They don't need their 3rd option to score 26.1 ppg but they need him to bring more offensively than anything those 4 guys have shown.

Pretty positive not a single one of those guys was available outside of Okoro anyways. Doesn't matter if an item is cheaper, if it's not for sale.

I'm sure they would've been available for a price somewhere below six 1sts or whatever Bridges pulled. Caruso was literally traded for Josh Giddey.

Bridges might've been scoring 14ppg in PHX while making All-Defense, but he was also leading the league in minutes played. All those guys scored 12-13ppg. And you said Bridges might be the 4th option behind OG.

I'm just saying we haven't seen Bridges be elite at D since he emerged on O and while a Knicks optimist might expect him to be great at both, he hasn't done that yet.

I can't lie, i forgot Caruso was on the Thunder, my bad.

Since they were able to get OG for zero firsts and KAT for one protected first, idk that the draft assets for Bridges matter much.

If a team has a handful if dudes scoring like that they only really need one guy going and getting his (Brunson).

Well, i think the Knicks trading for all these guys to put around Brunson is them being optimistic to that thought.

[toooskies]

10.1 ppg, 9.6 ppg, 11.0 ppg, and 10.6 ppg.

They don't need their 3rd option to score 26.1 ppg but they need him to bring more offensively than anything those 4 guys have shown.

Pretty positive not a single one of those guys was available outside of Okoro anyways. Doesn't matter if an item is cheaper, if it's not for sale.

I'm sure they would've been available for a price somewhere below six 1sts or whatever Bridges pulled. Caruso was literally traded for Josh Giddey.

Bridges might've been scoring 14ppg in PHX while making All-Defense, but he was also leading the league in minutes played. All those guys scored 12-13ppg. And you said Bridges might be the 4th option behind OG.

I'm just saying we haven't seen Bridges be elite at D since he emerged on O and while a Knicks optimist might expect him to be great at both, he hasn't done that yet.

I can't lie, i forgot Caruso was on the Thunder, my bad.

Since they were able to get OG for zero firsts and KAT for one protected first, idk that the draft assets for Bridges matter much.

If a team has a handful if dudes scoring like that they only really need one guy going and getting his (Brunson).

Well, i think the Knicks trading for all these guys to put around Brunson is them being optimistic to that thought.

I'm just not ready to say it's all going to work like people think/expect. They're too different to preserve any kind of continuity with the 2023 playoff team and they only have one guy who will reliably beat you in the playoffs.

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm sure they would've been available for a price somewhere below six 1sts or whatever Bridges pulled. Caruso was literally traded for Josh Giddey.

Bridges might've been scoring 14ppg in PHX while making All-Defense, but he was also leading the league in minutes played. All those guys scored 12-13ppg. And you said Bridges might be the 4th option behind OG.

I'm just saying we haven't seen Bridges be elite at D since he emerged on O and while a Knicks optimist might expect him to be great at both, he hasn't done that yet.

I can't lie, i forgot Caruso was on the Thunder, my bad.

Since they were able to get OG for zero firsts and KAT for one protected first, idk that the draft assets for Bridges matter much.

If a team has a handful if dudes scoring like that they only really need one guy going and getting his (Brunson).

Well, i think the Knicks trading for all these guys to put around Brunson is them being optimistic to that thought.

I'm just not ready to say it's all going to work like people think/expect. They're too different to preserve any kind of continuity with the 2023 playoff team and they only have one guy who will reliably beat you in the playoffs.

That's fair but i still believe the starting 5 is super talented and i give kudos to the Knicks front office for going out and acquiring 4 players to put around Brunson via trade. I just think it is a page Koby should put in his book.

[JonFromVA]

I can't lie, i forgot Caruso was on the Thunder, my bad.

Since they were able to get OG for zero firsts and KAT for one protected first, idk that the draft assets for Bridges matter much.

If a team has a handful if dudes scoring like that they only really need one guy going and getting his (Brunson).

Well, i think the Knicks trading for all these guys to put around Brunson is them being optimistic to that thought.

I'm just not ready to say it's all going to work like people think/expect. They're too different to preserve any kind of continuity with the 2023 playoff team and they only have one guy who will reliably beat you in the playoffs.

That's fair but i still believe the starting 5 is super talented and i give kudos to the Knicks front office for going out and acquiring 4 players to put around Brunson via trade. I just think it is a page Koby should put in his book.

Yep, the proof is always in the proverbial pudding, but at least on paper the Knicks have done a really nifty job building their team.

I've also never been a fan of Julius Randle ...

[jbk1234]

Dante Exum is out with a fractured wrist and I genuinely feel bad for him. The young man could've been a really good basketball player, but he just lacks the constitution to be a professional athlete.

[ijspeelman]

Dante Exum is out with a fractured wrist and I genuinely feel bad for him. The young man could've been a really good basketball player, but he just lacks the constitution to be a professional athlete.

He's a good, if not great, 9th-12th bench guy (based on last year's stats), but yeah the injuries keep pushing him away from the NBA. Other players can fill his shoes while he is gone.

Was excited when the Cavs got him back in the day, but barely got to see him play.

[jbk1234]

Dante Exum is out with a fractured wrist and I genuinely feel bad for him. The young man could've been a really good basketball player, but he just lacks the constitution to be a professional athlete.

He's a good, if not great, 9th-12th bench guy (based on last year's stats), but yeah the injuries keep pushing him away from the NBA. Other players can fill his shoes while he is gone.

Was excited when the Cavs got him back in the day, but barely got to see him play.

He was impressive off the bench for us before he got injured. I think his floor was Sean Livingston if he wasn't constantly injured.