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2022-23 Regular Season

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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#21 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 6, 2022 6:11 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Fedor already had a reputation as a mouth piece for the organization, but I thought he'd been doing a decent job. Haven't checked to see what he's written lately, but hey, if he hasn't been drooling over deep diving on draft workouts I can understand that and yeah, when Altman wants to play games and send out smoke screens, I expect Fedor to do his part.


Fedor actually getting the LeVert trade correct shattered a lot of my priors.


What did he get correct, though?

Part of the quid-pro-quo for being a team's mouthpiece means getting tossed a bone every now and then.


It was like Ted Cruz actually be correct about something. It wasn't what I was expecting.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#22 » by jbk1234 » Mon Jun 6, 2022 8:15 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=GFLSeAdMhr4tcYRHnrBzFg
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#23 » by toooskies » Mon Jun 6, 2022 9:10 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=GFLSeAdMhr4tcYRHnrBzFg

Kevin Love scaring guys away from the rim there
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#24 » by jbk1234 » Tue Jun 7, 2022 3:46 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=GFLSeAdMhr4tcYRHnrBzFg

Kevin Love scaring guys away from the rim there


He does manage to draw charges if he's already there. Just don't ask him to rotate more than five feet.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#25 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 9, 2022 10:41 pm

Lol
Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=TUv9vggCfwfpzIYJGv0zqA
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#26 » by JonFromVA » Fri Jun 10, 2022 2:35 pm

Was that in reference to Sam's latest about Collin that started out like this?

1. Things could get a little tricky between Collin Sexton and the Cavs. That much we can assume. It’s almost always the case when money is involved.

2. And even if they don’t, guys like me will likely hear they’re tricky, or maybe that there is some drama. And guys like me will write it.


:roll:
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#27 » by JujitsuFlip » Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:54 pm

Depending on Sexton's year 1 salary, I doubt the Cavs hard cap themselves by using the full MLE.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#28 » by toooskies » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:29 pm

JujitsuFlip wrote:Depending on Sexton's year 1 salary, I doubt the Cavs hard cap themselves by using the full MLE.

Eh, the hard cap isn't that big of a deal for us this year. We have plenty of expiring salaries of various sizes to avoid it in any potential moves.

But you're right in that there aren't all that many interesting targets outside of a backup PG.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#29 » by JonFromVA » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:56 pm

toooskies wrote:
JujitsuFlip wrote:Depending on Sexton's year 1 salary, I doubt the Cavs hard cap themselves by using the full MLE.

Eh, the hard cap isn't that big of a deal for us this year. We have plenty of expiring salaries of various sizes to avoid it in any potential moves.

But you're right in that there aren't all that many interesting targets outside of a backup PG.


Not being hard-capped is obviously preferable, but as long as there's a method behind the madness; I expect Dan Gilbert will continue to sign the checks.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#30 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:16 am

JujitsuFlip wrote:Depending on Sexton's year 1 salary, I doubt the Cavs hard cap themselves by using the full MLE.


How would the Cavs hard cap themselves? They won't be anywhere near the apron.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#31 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:34 pm

Interesting article. It's Matt Moore and his source is *belief around the league* so take it for what it's worth. Implies that there are concerns about how a Rubio/Sexton backcourt might work off the bench.

https://cavsnation.com/cavs-rumors-clevelands-plan-ricky-rubio-free-agency/
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#32 » by toooskies » Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:38 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Interesting article. It's Matt Moore and his source is *belief around the league* so take it for what it's worth. Implies that there are concerns about how a Rubio/Sexton backcourt might work off the bench.

https://cavsnation.com/cavs-rumors-clevelands-plan-ricky-rubio-free-agency/

It's unclear whether Rubio would prevent Sexton from being signed, or if Sexton would prevent Rubio from being signed.

But even at the beginning of last year, the guard rotation was pretty full just with Garland/Sexton/Rubio/Okoro. If we don't make another move we're adding LeVert to that mix, and possibly adding #14.

But we are headed towards a minutes crunch with Sexton/LaVert/Okoro/Markkanen/Osman/Stevens/Wade/Windler all wanting minutes at the 2 or the 3, and adding Rubio back means there won't be many minutes at the 1 for LeVert or Sexton. I guess you could shift LeVert or Okoro to the 3, or Markannen back to the 4/5 while cutting Love's minutes. But Osman/Stevens/Wade all proved to be capable of filling rotation minutes too, at least when they're playing well.

And that's before we get to adding draft picks.

It's easy to see that bringing Sexton and Rubio back means that another move could and probably should be made to prune the wing position. The problem being that you can't really consolidate those guys, it's mostly a bunch of neutral-ish value contracts that currently add up to not much. At best, to get a better player, they will probably be overpaid.

And being confronted with that, I'm pretty open to trading for an overpaid player, or trading to acquire Rubio or a backup C rather than signing them both with the MLE/BAE.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#33 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:35 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Interesting article. It's Matt Moore and his source is *belief around the league* so take it for what it's worth. Implies that there are concerns about how a Rubio/Sexton backcourt might work off the bench.

https://cavsnation.com/cavs-rumors-clevelands-plan-ricky-rubio-free-agency/

It's unclear whether Rubio would prevent Sexton from being signed, or if Sexton would prevent Rubio from being signed.

But even at the beginning of last year, the guard rotation was pretty full just with Garland/Sexton/Rubio/Okoro. If we don't make another move we're adding LeVert to that mix, and possibly adding #14.

But we are headed towards a minutes crunch with Sexton/LaVert/Okoro/Markkanen/Osman/Stevens/Wade/Windler all wanting minutes at the 2 or the 3, and adding Rubio back means there won't be many minutes at the 1 for LeVert or Sexton. I guess you could shift LeVert or Okoro to the 3, or Markannen back to the 4/5 while cutting Love's minutes. But Osman/Stevens/Wade all proved to be capable of filling rotation minutes too, at least when they're playing well.

And that's before we get to adding draft picks.

It's easy to see that bringing Sexton and Rubio back means that another move could and probably should be made to prune the wing position. The problem being that you can't really consolidate those guys, it's mostly a bunch of neutral-ish value contracts that currently add up to not much. At best, to get a better player, they will probably be overpaid.

And being confronted with that, I'm pretty open to trading for an overpaid player, or trading to acquire Rubio or a backup C rather than signing them both with the MLE/BAE.


I don't know that a minutes crunch is going to be an issue at the beginning of the season as Rubio likely won't be on the court. I think the bigger issue might be who the primary ball handler is in that second unit once Rubio comes back. Rubio averaged 6.6 assists off the bench last year which went a long way in explaining his on/off numbers. It kind of gets to the whole for what role are they bringing Sexton back in issue in a fundamental way. If you're bringing back Sexton to be a sixth man, then he's going to need a certain number of FGAs to provide net positive value. If he's the lead guard, then is Rubio insurance? I mean Rubio and Garland played pretty well together but Mobley's going to have to start hitting jumpers for that to be your starting unit.

Conversely, if Sexton doesn't work out as the lead guard off the bench, and the team plays better with Rubio in that role, Sexton's trade value will plummet on any deal that has him over $15M per. This is complicated by the fact there are additional trade restrictions on RFAs so it may not be easy to get ahead of a developing trend. If the Cavs are as good as they were last season, then they're not really going to be in a position to burn a dozen games auditioning trade candidates at the expense of overall performance (like the Pacers did with LeVert).

If they want, the Cavs could get by with a TJ McConnell type who could defend the position and run basic sets so the other guys on the bench unit actually get to touch the ball. I think it was Jon who said Sexton's best advanced numbers were with Delly, when Delly ran the offense (small sample size though). The truth is the Cavs probably don't NEED a backup PG as good as Rubio with Sexton in the same back court, but if he's willing to come here on a reasonable number, then it's really hard, probably even stupid, to say no. So you get back to what is Sexton's role going to be and how much are you willing to pay to find out if it will work?

As far as other wings, I'm not really worried about their minutes. Obviously, LeVert and Sexton cannot play in the same back court, but LeVert's defense and length make him a viable starter. Okoro next to Sexton as backups until Ricky is healthy, which could be half a season or longer, is a really viable option if the plan is to let Sexton be Sexton off the bench. None of Cedi, Wade, Stevens, or Windler are good enough to be guaranteed regular minutes. There will be backup SF minutes they can split, but other than that, they're injury insurance (and Windler hasn't even demonstrated that tbh) or in Stevens case, a physical role player off the bench when the game gets chippy.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#34 » by toooskies » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Interesting article. It's Matt Moore and his source is *belief around the league* so take it for what it's worth. Implies that there are concerns about how a Rubio/Sexton backcourt might work off the bench.

https://cavsnation.com/cavs-rumors-clevelands-plan-ricky-rubio-free-agency/

It's unclear whether Rubio would prevent Sexton from being signed, or if Sexton would prevent Rubio from being signed.

But even at the beginning of last year, the guard rotation was pretty full just with Garland/Sexton/Rubio/Okoro. If we don't make another move we're adding LeVert to that mix, and possibly adding #14.

But we are headed towards a minutes crunch with Sexton/LaVert/Okoro/Markkanen/Osman/Stevens/Wade/Windler all wanting minutes at the 2 or the 3, and adding Rubio back means there won't be many minutes at the 1 for LeVert or Sexton. I guess you could shift LeVert or Okoro to the 3, or Markannen back to the 4/5 while cutting Love's minutes. But Osman/Stevens/Wade all proved to be capable of filling rotation minutes too, at least when they're playing well.

And that's before we get to adding draft picks.

It's easy to see that bringing Sexton and Rubio back means that another move could and probably should be made to prune the wing position. The problem being that you can't really consolidate those guys, it's mostly a bunch of neutral-ish value contracts that currently add up to not much. At best, to get a better player, they will probably be overpaid.

And being confronted with that, I'm pretty open to trading for an overpaid player, or trading to acquire Rubio or a backup C rather than signing them both with the MLE/BAE.


I don't know that a minutes crunch is going to be an issue at the beginning of the season as Rubio likely won't be on the court. I think the bigger issue might be who the primary ball handler is in that second unit once Rubio comes back. Rubio averaged 6.6 assists off the bench last year which went a long way in explaining his on/off numbers. It kind of gets to the whole for what role are bringing Sexton back in, in a fundamental way. If you're bringing back Sexton to be a sixth man, then he's going to need a certain number of FGAs to provide net positive value. If he's the lead guard, then is Rubio insurance? I mean Rubio and Garland played pretty well together but Mobley's going to have to start hitting jumpers for that to be your starting unit.

Conversely, if Sexton doesn't work out as the lead guard off the bench, and the team plays better with Rubio in that role, Sexton's trade value will plummet on any deal that has him over $15M per. This is complicated by the fact there are additional trade restrictions on RFAs so it may not be easy to get ahead of a developing trend. If the Cavs are as good as they were last season, then they're not really going to be in a position to burn a dozen games auditioning trade candidates at the expense of overall performance (like the Pacers did with LeVert).

If they want, the Cavs could get by with a TJ McConnell type who could defend the position and run basic sets so the other guys on the bench unit actually get to touch the ball. I think it was Jon who said Sexton's best advanced numbers were with Delly, when Delly ran the offense (small sample size though). The truth is the Cavs probably don't NEED a backup PG as good as Rubio with Sexton in the same back court, but if he's willing to come here on a reasonable number, then it's really hard, probably even stupid, to say no. So you get back to what is Sexton's role going to be and how much are you willing to pay to find out if it will work?

As far as other wings, I'm not really worried about their minutes. Obviously, LeVert and Sexton cannot play in the same back court, but LeVert's defense and length make him a viable starter. Okoro next to Sexton as backups until Ricky is healthy, which could be half a season or longer, is a really viable option if the plan is to let Sexton be Sexton off the bench. None of Cedi, Wade, Stevens, or Windler are good enough to be guaranteed regular minutes. There will be backup SF minutes they can split, but other than that, they're injury insurance (and Windler hasn't even demonstrated that tbh) or in Stevens case, a physical role player off the bench when the game gets chippy.

I think things could work at the beginning of the season, and maybe that's enough time to hash out whether LeVert or Sexton is the longer-term piece on the team. I'm not worried about moving Sexton as long as he's healthy and he signs before the end of July to expire the BYC restrictions by the deadline-- as long as you predict that Westbrook won't work out again in LA, I definitely think they'd be buyers on Sexton + expirings at the deadline in the worst case. (It's a fair bet that at least one of LeVert or Love gets a season-ending injury by the deadline and can be trade filler if we're clearing cap space in the offseason.)
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#35 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:21 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:It's unclear whether Rubio would prevent Sexton from being signed, or if Sexton would prevent Rubio from being signed.

But even at the beginning of last year, the guard rotation was pretty full just with Garland/Sexton/Rubio/Okoro. If we don't make another move we're adding LeVert to that mix, and possibly adding #14.

But we are headed towards a minutes crunch with Sexton/LaVert/Okoro/Markkanen/Osman/Stevens/Wade/Windler all wanting minutes at the 2 or the 3, and adding Rubio back means there won't be many minutes at the 1 for LeVert or Sexton. I guess you could shift LeVert or Okoro to the 3, or Markannen back to the 4/5 while cutting Love's minutes. But Osman/Stevens/Wade all proved to be capable of filling rotation minutes too, at least when they're playing well.

And that's before we get to adding draft picks.

It's easy to see that bringing Sexton and Rubio back means that another move could and probably should be made to prune the wing position. The problem being that you can't really consolidate those guys, it's mostly a bunch of neutral-ish value contracts that currently add up to not much. At best, to get a better player, they will probably be overpaid.

And being confronted with that, I'm pretty open to trading for an overpaid player, or trading to acquire Rubio or a backup C rather than signing them both with the MLE/BAE.


I don't know that a minutes crunch is going to be an issue at the beginning of the season as Rubio likely won't be on the court. I think the bigger issue might be who the primary ball handler is in that second unit once Rubio comes back. Rubio averaged 6.6 assists off the bench last year which went a long way in explaining his on/off numbers. It kind of gets to the whole for what role are bringing Sexton back in, in a fundamental way. If you're bringing back Sexton to be a sixth man, then he's going to need a certain number of FGAs to provide net positive value. If he's the lead guard, then is Rubio insurance? I mean Rubio and Garland played pretty well together but Mobley's going to have to start hitting jumpers for that to be your starting unit.

Conversely, if Sexton doesn't work out as the lead guard off the bench, and the team plays better with Rubio in that role, Sexton's trade value will plummet on any deal that has him over $15M per. This is complicated by the fact there are additional trade restrictions on RFAs so it may not be easy to get ahead of a developing trend. If the Cavs are as good as they were last season, then they're not really going to be in a position to burn a dozen games auditioning trade candidates at the expense of overall performance (like the Pacers did with LeVert).

If they want, the Cavs could get by with a TJ McConnell type who could defend the position and run basic sets so the other guys on the bench unit actually get to touch the ball. I think it was Jon who said Sexton's best advanced numbers were with Delly, when Delly ran the offense (small sample size though). The truth is the Cavs probably don't NEED a backup PG as good as Rubio with Sexton in the same back court, but if he's willing to come here on a reasonable number, then it's really hard, probably even stupid, to say no. So you get back to what is Sexton's role going to be and how much are you willing to pay to find out if it will work?

As far as other wings, I'm not really worried about their minutes. Obviously, LeVert and Sexton cannot play in the same back court, but LeVert's defense and length make him a viable starter. Okoro next to Sexton as backups until Ricky is healthy, which could be half a season or longer, is a really viable option if the plan is to let Sexton be Sexton off the bench. None of Cedi, Wade, Stevens, or Windler are good enough to be guaranteed regular minutes. There will be backup SF minutes they can split, but other than that, they're injury insurance (and Windler hasn't even demonstrated that tbh) or in Stevens case, a physical role player off the bench when the game gets chippy.

I think things could work at the beginning of the season, and maybe that's enough time to hash out whether LeVert or Sexton is the longer-term piece on the team. I'm not worried about moving Sexton as long as he's healthy and he signs before the end of July to expire the BYC restrictions by the deadline-- as long as you predict that Westbrook won't work out again in LA, I definitely think they'd be buyers on Sexton + expirings at the deadline in the worst case. (It's a fair bet that at least one of LeVert or Love gets a season-ending injury by the deadline and can be trade filler if we're clearing cap space in the offseason.)


I think the worst case is Sexton falls at, or even below, the Duncan Robinson category.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#36 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:46 pm

Bottom line: what Altman and JBB may be selling isn't necessarily what these players are buying. If they don't see a desirable role and an acceptable amount of play-time, they're going to look elsewhere or try to get themselves moved.

Publicly they'll say they just want to help the team win, but when they actually have a choice in the matter, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Even in our search for a backup C or a backup PG, they're going to look at how many players they'll be competing against for minutes and not necessarily assume they will beat any let alone all of them out.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#37 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:34 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Bottom line: what Altman and JBB may be selling isn't necessarily what these players are buying. If they don't see a desirable role and an acceptable amount of play-time, they're going to look elsewhere or try to get themselves moved.

Publicly they'll say they just want to help the team win, but when they actually have a choice in the matter, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Even in our search for a backup C or a backup PG, they're going to look at how many players they'll be competing against for minutes and not necessarily assume they will beat any let alone all of them out.


Honestly, I think I prefer a scenario where Sexton says I won't have a big enough role here right up front, rather than saying all the right things, getting paid, and then as soon as he's trade eligible, starts complaining about his role.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#38 » by toooskies » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:25 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Bottom line: what Altman and JBB may be selling isn't necessarily what these players are buying. If they don't see a desirable role and an acceptable amount of play-time, they're going to look elsewhere or try to get themselves moved.

Publicly they'll say they just want to help the team win, but when they actually have a choice in the matter, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Even in our search for a backup C or a backup PG, they're going to look at how many players they'll be competing against for minutes and not necessarily assume they will beat any let alone all of them out.


Honestly, I think I prefer a scenario where Sexton says I won't have a big enough role here right up front, rather than saying all the right things, getting paid, and then as soon as he's trade eligible, starts complaining about his role.

Both Sexton and LeVert took the time to posture publically about wanting to be in Cleveland long-term at the end of the season last year, which indicates to me that they both believe that there's a competition for the starting SG spot in both of their minds. There's no way Sexton acknowledges he won't be the starter "up front" unless the Cavs tell him that they've made that decision already.

If we're going to retain Collin while giving LeVert the starting job before training camp starts, I think we'd have to extend LeVert this offseason as well at a bigger number than Sexton signs for.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#39 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:56 pm

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Bottom line: what Altman and JBB may be selling isn't necessarily what these players are buying. If they don't see a desirable role and an acceptable amount of play-time, they're going to look elsewhere or try to get themselves moved.

Publicly they'll say they just want to help the team win, but when they actually have a choice in the matter, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Even in our search for a backup C or a backup PG, they're going to look at how many players they'll be competing against for minutes and not necessarily assume they will beat any let alone all of them out.


Honestly, I think I prefer a scenario where Sexton says I won't have a big enough role here right up front, rather than saying all the right things, getting paid, and then as soon as he's trade eligible, starts complaining about his role.

Both Sexton and LeVert took the time to posture publically about wanting to be in Cleveland long-term at the end of the season last year, which indicates to me that they both believe that there's a competition for the starting SG spot in both of their minds. There's no way Sexton acknowledges he won't be the starter "up front" unless the Cavs tell him that they've made that decision already.

If we're going to retain Collin while giving LeVert the starting job before training camp starts, I think we'd have to extend LeVert this offseason as well at a bigger number than Sexton signs for.


We don't have to do any of those things. We can extend LeVert at any time, or not at all. Again, the Cavs have options here, and it would be foolish to preemptively remove those options for players who, quite frankly, haven't demonstrated they're ideal starters on our current roster. GTJ could fail to come to terms with the Raptors on an extension. Okoro could have a big leap this year (not betting on that one). We could draft a guard who develops into the better starter. Jaylen Brown could decide to leave Boston in the summer of 2024.
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Re: 2022 off season 

Post#40 » by toooskies » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:35 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Honestly, I think I prefer a scenario where Sexton says I won't have a big enough role here right up front, rather than saying all the right things, getting paid, and then as soon as he's trade eligible, starts complaining about his role.

Both Sexton and LeVert took the time to posture publically about wanting to be in Cleveland long-term at the end of the season last year, which indicates to me that they both believe that there's a competition for the starting SG spot in both of their minds. There's no way Sexton acknowledges he won't be the starter "up front" unless the Cavs tell him that they've made that decision already.

If we're going to retain Collin while giving LeVert the starting job before training camp starts, I think we'd have to extend LeVert this offseason as well at a bigger number than Sexton signs for.


We don't have to do any of those things. We can extend LeVert at any time, or not at all. Again, the Cavs have options here, and it would be foolish to preemptively remove those options for players who, quite frankly, haven't demonstrated they're ideal starters on our current roster. GTJ could fail to come to terms with the Raptors on an extension. Okoro could have a big leap this year (not betting on that one). We could draft a guard who develops into the better starter. Jaylen Brown could decide to leave Boston in the summer of 2024.

We're going to create a chemistry issue if we pay Sexton, don't pay LeVert, but still give LeVert the starting job. (Unless the market for Sexton is really low.)

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