Post Mortem 2024-25

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm pretty much done with Okoro. In a vacuum, $13M per is fine. He can help eat minutes and balance lineups in the regular season, but he's just not a net positive over extended run in the playoffs and a team over the second apron can't afford the premium for what he provides. You probably want to see if you can retain Green on a vet minimum first, but it's time to turn him into a thid big.

That is an interesting angle, we know Koby will never do that. But just for the fun of it, let's examine all the bigs that do not make 1 penny over Okoro's $11 million next season. As a 2nd apron team, that is the only way a trade would be legal.

Mo Wagner
Wendell Carter Jr
Goga Bitadze
Xavier Tillman
Drew Timme
Noah Clowney
Drummond
Adem Bona
Yves Missi
Jay Huff
Edey
Duren
Simone Fontecchio
Paul Reed
Tony Bradley
Ariel Hukporti
Mark Williams
Moussa Diabaté
Jalen Smith
Tyler Smith
Luka Garza
Nikola Jović
Jock Landale
Lively
Dwight Powell
Sochan
Nick Richards
Oso Ighodaro
Walker Kessler
Kyle Filipowski
Taylor Hendricks
Duop Reath
Donovan Clingan
Jonas Valančiūnas
DaRon Holmes
Trayce Jackson-Davis
Quinten Post
Maxi Kleber
Drew Eubanks
Jaylin Williams
Ousmane Dieng

There are for sure a few interesting names on the list, do any scratch your itch?

I see a lot of names I like, but some of these guys are simply worth more in a trade and others our on teams that don't really have a need for Okoro. Maybe a three team trade with Orlando works out if the team trading for their big keeps them in the dark. I suspect that just as I'm disinclined to fix the Magic by trading them Garland, the Magic won't be too keen on helping the Cavs out.

Agreed. I know you all might think i am crazy since he couldn't pass his physical but i kind of like the idea of taking on Mark Williams.

His value is probably dinged now, would knock money off our apron status too. Not sure the Hornets go for it but I'd at least make the call.

[toooskies]

I'll just stick to Okoro so as to avoid mega thread. The most minutes he played (16) was in game 4. Okoro the one who committed the stupid end of quarter foul on Haliburton that gave him three shots at the foul line. Haliburton scored 31 points on 10 for 15 shooting. Navigating screens is great, but if a player like Hali can take a step back and still shoot over you, it doesn't really matter.

Okoro's presence on the floor allowed the Pacers to change how they were defending the entire team. He scored 2 points in 16 minutes on only 2 shots and had a turnover despite limited usage. There really isn't an offense you can run for Okoro once the defense has decided to pince down.

Also, zero rebounds in 16 minutes.

I'm with you. Guys still shooting over Okoro drives me absolutely bonkers. I wish we didn't re-sign him but here we are.

We dominated the Pacers on the boards. We defensive rebounded like the best team in the league and offensive rebounded like a top 5 team.

The guys shooting over Okoro and the dumb play are accounted for in the stats. As good as that Halliburton step-back was, it’s generally a low-percentage shot that no one can stop and you just have to live with it when it goes in.

It’s hard to count the plays that the other offense doesn’t make because a point of attack defender slowed the other team down or didn’t allow an easy angle on a pass. You have to look at tracking stats.

Okoro led the Cavs in dFG% versus expected (-6% difference) and only allowed 3.4 shots total per game from his man. He only allowed two made threes in the entire series from his man, according to the tracking data.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall (Set advanced filters for Cavs, EC Semis.)

[jbk1234]

I'll just stick to Okoro so as to avoid mega thread. The most minutes he played (16) was in game 4. Okoro the one who committed the stupid end of quarter foul on Haliburton that gave him three shots at the foul line. Haliburton scored 31 points on 10 for 15 shooting. Navigating screens is great, but if a player like Hali can take a step back and still shoot over you, it doesn't really matter.

Okoro's presence on the floor allowed the Pacers to change how they were defending the entire team. He scored 2 points in 16 minutes on only 2 shots and had a turnover despite limited usage. There really isn't an offense you can run for Okoro once the defense has decided to pince down.

Also, zero rebounds in 16 minutes.

I'm with you. Guys still shooting over Okoro drives me absolutely bonkers. I wish we didn't re-sign him but here we are.

We dominated the Pacers on the boards. We defensive rebounded like the best team in the league and offensive rebounded like a top 5 team.

The guys shooting over Okoro and the dumb play are accounted for in the stats. As good as that Halliburton step-back was, it’s generally a low-percentage shot that no one can stop and you just have to live with it when it goes in.

It’s hard to count the plays that the other offense doesn’t make because a point of attack defender slowed the other team down or didn’t allow an easy angle on a pass. You have to look at tracking stats.

Okoro led the Cavs in dFG% versus expected (-6% difference) and only allowed 3.4 shots total per game from his man. He only allowed two made threes in the entire series from his man, according to the tracking data.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall (Set advanced filters for Cavs, EC Semis.)

Here's the thing, he barely played in the only game we won. His best statistical game came when we got run out of the gym. Perhaps it's not as simple as looking at the stats.

Maybe committing a dumb foul and getting Haliburton going isn’t captured by the stats because Okoro only played 16 minutes and Haliburton played a more than that. Maybe Okoro being borderline useless against a full court press makes it harder on the guys who actually have to handle the ball. Maybe Okoro being unable to dribble, shoot, or finish against any type of rim protection makes his teammates, who play more minutes, work too hard when he's out there.

Just me, personally, but a player like Okoro managing zero rebounds in a close out game is simply unacceptable. Garland's the smallest guy out there, playing crippled and pulled down 4 defensive rebounds in that game. Mitchell, also playing on one leg, managed 2 offensive rebounds. Hunter managed 5 trb. Wade managed 6 rebounds and played 18 minutes.

[toooskies]

I'm with you. Guys still shooting over Okoro drives me absolutely bonkers. I wish we didn't re-sign him but here we are.

We dominated the Pacers on the boards. We defensive rebounded like the best team in the league and offensive rebounded like a top 5 team.

The guys shooting over Okoro and the dumb play are accounted for in the stats. As good as that Halliburton step-back was, it’s generally a low-percentage shot that no one can stop and you just have to live with it when it goes in.

It’s hard to count the plays that the other offense doesn’t make because a point of attack defender slowed the other team down or didn’t allow an easy angle on a pass. You have to look at tracking stats.

Okoro led the Cavs in dFG% versus expected (-6% difference) and only allowed 3.4 shots total per game from his man. He only allowed two made threes in the entire series from his man, according to the tracking data.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-overall (Set advanced filters for Cavs, EC Semis.)

Here's the thing, he barely played in the only game we won. His best statistical game came when we got run out of the gym. Perhaps it's not as simple as looking at the stats.

Maybe committing a dumb foul and getting Haliburton going aren't captured by the stats because Okoro only played 16 minutes and Haliburton played a more than that. Maybe Okoro being borderline useless against a full court press makes it harder on the guys who actually have to handle the ball. Maybe Okoro being unable to dribble, shoot, or finish against any type of rim protection makes his teammates, who play more minutes, work too hard when he's out there.

Just me, personally, but a player like Okoro managing zero rebounds in a close out game is simply unacceptable. Garland's the smallest guy out there, playing crippled and pulled down 4 defensive rebounds in that game. Mitchell, also playing on one leg, managed 2 offensive rebounds. Hunter managed 5 trb. Wade managed 6 rebounds and played 18 minutes.

Despite barely playing in the game we won, he still led the regular rotation players in plus-minus. Led the team in both regular season on/off and playoff on/off.

[cavs4872]

Pacers success 10-deep really has me wondering if we pushed Allen to the bench and rolled with

Garland/Jerome
Mitchell/Merrill
Strus/Okoro
Hunter/Wade
Mobley/Allen

[JujitsuFlip]

Pacers success 10-deep really has me wondering if we pushed Allen to the bench and rolled with

Garland/Jerome
Mitchell/Merrill
Strus/Okoro
Hunter/Wade
Mobley/Allen

Jerome and Merrill are probably gone this summer so would have to be CPJ and Tyson in those spots.

Plus, Hunter didn't seem comfortable with the starters.

But yes Carlisle ran 10 deep his championship season, i believe. Even with Butler and Beaubois out.

[toooskies]

Pacers success 10-deep really has me wondering if we pushed Allen to the bench and rolled with

Garland/Jerome
Mitchell/Merrill
Strus/Okoro
Hunter/Wade
Mobley/Allen

Jerome and Merrill are probably gone this summer so would have to be CPJ and Tyson in those spots.

Plus, Hunter didn't seem comfortable with the starters.

But yes Carlisle ran 10 deep his championship season, i believe. Even with Butler and Beaubois out.

Unless we try to duck the apron we will bring one if not both of them back.

Hunter didn’t really get to practice with anybody, we were on a constant road trip all through March. An offseason with everyone will be great for him.

[JujitsuFlip]

Pacers success 10-deep really has me wondering if we pushed Allen to the bench and rolled with

Garland/Jerome
Mitchell/Merrill
Strus/Okoro
Hunter/Wade
Mobley/Allen

Jerome and Merrill are probably gone this summer so would have to be CPJ and Tyson in those spots.

Plus, Hunter didn't seem comfortable with the starters.

But yes Carlisle ran 10 deep his championship season, i believe. Even with Butler and Beaubois out.

Unless we try to duck the apron we will bring one if not both of them back.

Hunter didn’t really get to practice with anybody, we were on a constant road trip all through March. An offseason with everyone will be great for him.

It would be very unwise financially to bring one back, let alone both. They're both due massive pay raises.

Cavs are already a 2nd apron team without either guy, there's no ducking that.

$46.39 MM: Mitchell
$46.39 MM: Mobley (base + escalator)
$39.45 MM: Garland
$23.30 MM: Hunter
$20.00 MM: Allen
$15.94 MM: Strus
$11.00 MM: Okoro
$6.623 MM: Wade
$3.492 MM: Tyson
$2.456 MM: Okeke
$2.221 MM: Porter
========================
$1.27 MM: incomplete roster charge
========================
$424 k: Rubio dead cap

That is about $219 million against a projected $207.825 million 2nd apron. So, yeah, i do not think either guy will be back. They're both going to make year 1 salaries higher than Okoro.

[toooskies]

Jerome and Merrill are probably gone this summer so would have to be CPJ and Tyson in those spots.

Plus, Hunter didn't seem comfortable with the starters.

But yes Carlisle ran 10 deep his championship season, i believe. Even with Butler and Beaubois out.

Unless we try to duck the apron we will bring one if not both of them back.

Hunter didn’t really get to practice with anybody, we were on a constant road trip all through March. An offseason with everyone will be great for him.

It would be very unwise financially to bring one back, let alone both. They're both due massive pay raises.

Cavs are already a 2nd apron team without either guy, there's no ducking that.

$46.39 MM: Mitchell
$46.39 MM: Mobley (base + escalator)
$39.45 MM: Garland
$23.30 MM: Hunter
$20.00 MM: Allen
$15.94 MM: Strus
$11.00 MM: Okoro
$6.623 MM: Wade
$3.492 MM: Tyson
$2.456 MM: Okeke
$2.221 MM: Porter
========================
$1.27 MM: incomplete roster charge
========================
$424 k: Rubio dead cap

That is about $219 million against a projected $207.825 million 2nd apron. So, yeah, i do not think either guy will be back. They're both going to make year 1 salaries higher than Okoro.

Where? Brooklyn might sign Ty for a reasonable paycheck but I don’t see Merrill getting the MLE anywhere.

Ty Jerome disappearing the playoffs should be enough to scare off any really big offers. Merrill’s limitations as a guard who shouldn’t be your initiator limits the teams he’s useful on, even if his defense went up a level.

[JujitsuFlip]

Unless we try to duck the apron we will bring one if not both of them back.

Hunter didn’t really get to practice with anybody, we were on a constant road trip all through March. An offseason with everyone will be great for him.

It would be very unwise financially to bring one back, let alone both. They're both due massive pay raises.

Cavs are already a 2nd apron team without either guy, there's no ducking that.

$46.39 MM: Mitchell
$46.39 MM: Mobley (base + escalator)
$39.45 MM: Garland
$23.30 MM: Hunter
$20.00 MM: Allen
$15.94 MM: Strus
$11.00 MM: Okoro
$6.623 MM: Wade
$3.492 MM: Tyson
$2.456 MM: Okeke
$2.221 MM: Porter
========================
$1.27 MM: incomplete roster charge
========================
$424 k: Rubio dead cap

That is about $219 million against a projected $207.825 million 2nd apron. So, yeah, i do not think either guy will be back. They're both going to make year 1 salaries higher than Okoro.

Where? Brooklyn might sign Ty for a reasonable paycheck but I don’t see Merrill getting the MLE anywhere.

Ty Jerome disappearing the playoffs should be enough to scare off any really big offers. Merrill’s limitations as a guard who shouldn’t be your initiator limits the teams he’s useful on, even if his defense went up a level.

It's not up to me to decide where, I didn't know Delly would get paid by the Bucks or Moz would get paid by the Lakers. Where those 2 end up may be random.

I just know bringing back Jerome at a $14 million year 1 salary (probably be slightly less) and Merrill at a what $11.1 million year 1 salary? That is not wise for a 2nd apron team.

That will push $219 million in player salary to north of $243 million, we still would need to fill one more roster spot too.

At some point the Cavs will have to get outta the 2nd apron, it starts by not bringing back Ty and Sam this summer, most likely letting Wade walk similarly next summer.

[jbk1234]

The taxpayer exception deal for Jerome has to be two years. I'm ambivalent about bringing back both or either of them. On the one hand, they're both solid offensive players. On the other hand, their defensive limitations are compounded by who we start in the backcourt. That reality is complicated by the fact Garland or Mitchell could be traded before their contracts are up.

The one thing you can't do is overpay role players as a second apron team. All your role players need to be tradeable.

[JonFromVA]

Just keep in mind the second apron rules could be modified and as long as the union sees a benefit they might not have to wait for the cba to expire.

Not to mention the second apron can increase by as much as 10% each season which may outpace our future spending.

Just a couple of reasons I leave it to Altman and gang to scratch their heads on this stuff and figure out how much they can afford.

[jbk1234]

Just keep in mind the second apron rules could be modified and as long as the union sees a benefit they might not have to wait for the cba to expire.

Not to mention the second apron can increase by as much as 10% each season which may outpace our future spending.

Just a couple of reasons I leave it to Altman and gang to scratch their heads on this stuff and figure out how much they can afford.

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

[JonFromVA]

Just keep in mind the second apron rules could be modified and as long as the union sees a benefit they might not have to wait for the cba to expire.

Not to mention the second apron can increase by as much as 10% each season which may outpace our future spending.

Just a couple of reasons I leave it to Altman and gang to scratch their heads on this stuff and figure out how much they can afford.

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

Like I pointed out in another thread, it was Ty's first playoff experience and overall he did just fine; but regardless if his regular season was no fluke he'll easily earn what we can pay him. After all, we still have to get through the regular season without overtaxing Mitchell and Garland.

[JujitsuFlip]

Just keep in mind the second apron rules could be modified and as long as the union sees a benefit they might not have to wait for the cba to expire.

Not to mention the second apron can increase by as much as 10% each season which may outpace our future spending.

Just a couple of reasons I leave it to Altman and gang to scratch their heads on this stuff and figure out how much they can afford.

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

I know he's injury prone himself but if/when Ty walks this summer. I'd love to bring back Exum on a non-guaranteed vet min.

I doubt CP3 or Tyus Jones are up to being Garland's back-up for the vet min but both would be great choices.

Another vet that would be cool to land is GP2 for the vet min. He is way too loyal to the GSW but despite being small he's an awesome energy wing.

[JonFromVA]

Just keep in mind the second apron rules could be modified and as long as the union sees a benefit they might not have to wait for the cba to expire.

Not to mention the second apron can increase by as much as 10% each season which may outpace our future spending.

Just a couple of reasons I leave it to Altman and gang to scratch their heads on this stuff and figure out how much they can afford.

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

I know he's injury prone himself but if/when Ty walks this summer. I'd love to bring back Exum on a non-guaranteed vet min.

I doubt CP3 or Tyus Jones are up to being Garland's back-up for the vet min but both would be great choices.

Another vet that would be cool to land is GP2 for the vet min. He is way too loyal to the GSW but despite being small he's an awesome energy wing.

IMO, it's past time CPJ got the chance to show what he can do with a consistent role. He's 25 years old and not getting any younger.

[JujitsuFlip]

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

I know he's injury prone himself but if/when Ty walks this summer. I'd love to bring back Exum on a non-guaranteed vet min.

I doubt CP3 or Tyus Jones are up to being Garland's back-up for the vet min but both would be great choices.

Another vet that would be cool to land is GP2 for the vet min. He is way too loyal to the GSW but despite being small he's an awesome energy wing.

IMO, it's past time CPJ got the chance to show what he can do with a consistent role. He's 25 years old and not getting any younger.

I guess, small guards rarely stand-up to the physicality of the playoffs though. So having our 2 PG options be 6'1" 192lbs and 6'1" 180lbs does not give me much faith.

But as a 2nd apron team, CPJ and Tyson being regular rotation players, is our reality.

[jbk1234]

There will be loads of cap space next summer, the Cavs will have a ton of role players who will be entering the last year of their deals, and we'll have extension decisions on both Mitchell and Garland. There isn't a need to break up the team now.

That said, I'm a little concerned about Ty. He can't have another series like he did against the Pacers if we give him the league average exception. A huge part of his theoretical value to the Cavs is as a hedge against a Garland (or Mitchell) injury in the postseason. If he's not that, then maybe we a different type of backup PG altogether.

I know he's injury prone himself but if/when Ty walks this summer. I'd love to bring back Exum on a non-guaranteed vet min.

I doubt CP3 or Tyus Jones are up to being Garland's back-up for the vet min but both would be great choices.

Another vet that would be cool to land is GP2 for the vet min. He is way too loyal to the GSW but despite being small he's an awesome energy wing.

IMO, it's past time CPJ got the chance to show what he can do with a consistent role. He's 25 years old and not getting any younger.

You can't just disappear bad stretches from your analysis and then claim a player didn't get a chance. When Mitchell got injured the season before this past one, and the Cavs really needed CPJ to provide minutes to relieve Garland, he couldn't get the ball up the court against a full court press without turning it over.

He's limited as a POA player because he doesn't have range and can't finish against solid rim protection due to his size. His size also limits his ability to contest from range. He's fine as a solid 3rd string emergency PG, but relying on him as a first alternative in the playoffs seems reckless.

The last backup PG who was able to come in and be a settling presence against playoff caliber defense was Rajon Rondo. Maybe a similar option isn't available on the league minimum, but the Cavs would be wise to explore it.

[JonFromVA]

I know he's injury prone himself but if/when Ty walks this summer. I'd love to bring back Exum on a non-guaranteed vet min.

I doubt CP3 or Tyus Jones are up to being Garland's back-up for the vet min but both would be great choices.

Another vet that would be cool to land is GP2 for the vet min. He is way too loyal to the GSW but despite being small he's an awesome energy wing.

IMO, it's past time CPJ got the chance to show what he can do with a consistent role. He's 25 years old and not getting any younger.

I guess, small guards rarely stand-up to the physicality of the playoffs though. So having our 2 PG options be 6'1" 192lbs and 6'1" 180lbs does not give me much faith.

But as a 2nd apron team, CPJ and Tyson being regular rotation players, is our reality.

We'll have to see, but CPJ doesn't play like a small guard other than his height. His wingspan at one site was reported at 6'5" which if true is an inch longer than Ty's. Is there some reason we don't full court press more? Craig's height isn't a disadvantage 90ft from the rim.

[JujitsuFlip]

IMO, it's past time CPJ got the chance to show what he can do with a consistent role. He's 25 years old and not getting any younger.

I guess, small guards rarely stand-up to the physicality of the playoffs though. So having our 2 PG options be 6'1" 192lbs and 6'1" 180lbs does not give me much faith.

But as a 2nd apron team, CPJ and Tyson being regular rotation players, is our reality.

We'll have to see, but CPJ doesn't play like a small guard other than his height. His wingspan at one site was reported at 6'5" which if true is an inch longer than Ty's. Is there some reason we don't full court press more? Craig's height isn't a disadvantage 90ft from the rim.

I liked what CPJ gave us in his limited minutes in game 2.

If/when Ty walks, I'd like to see the Cavs target a vet min PG but if not they will have to roll with CPJ as the back-up. Maybe draft a big third string PG in the 2025 second round.