2025-26 Off-Season

[JonFromVA]

We can not go 3 more years with the ceiling being the 2nd round, there's no chance that is acceptable. Kenny will get canned for sure.

Giannis isn't a good example... Yes he won in his 8th NBA season but what happened that season? They acquired their starting PG Jrue to replace their other starting PG Bledsoe who couldn't get it done, in the same trade they moved their back up PG Hill too. What else did they do? Acquired their starting F Tucker for another reserve guard in Augustine and a reserve F Wilson who could not find consistent minutes.

So let's not pretend like the Bucks just had a core struggling together for 7 seasons and they just magically figured it out one day and won a title. No, they had to move some deck chairs around to get over the hump.

Again, yes Jokic won in his 8th NBA season but what happened? They traded for their starting SG KCP for their back up PG Morris and often injured starting wing Barton. MPJ got healthy which allowed him to start and bump uncle Jeff Green to come off the bench. They signed their backup C DJ (even though he played sparingly). Acquired their back-up PG Jackson off the buyout market (even though he played sparingly). They drafted Braun who was wing depth. Signed their 6th man Brown.

If anything, i feel like your 2 examples of MVP players finally getting over the hump was solely because they switched up pieces and didn't just stand pat. Plus the Cavs do not have a multiple time MVP on their roster either, so there's that, for comparison sake.

Good points, but those players still had to get where got AND have things fall in to place around them. A healthy Garland for instance would be a lot better option than whatever Jrue Holiday might contribute at 35/36 years old for us.

There's an element of luck and right time and right place that is out of everyone's control. I'm fine if that perfect confluence of events that led to us winning in 2016 doesn't repeat for this group as long as the team is fun to watch and there's hope.

So by all means keep the smart/opportunistic trades like getting Hunter for expiring LeVert, Niang, and some picks/rights of little import; and avoid the idiot crap the fans and media are tossing around like dumping Garland and/or Allen because they can't tell the difference between injuries and team construction.

And yes, I realize the 2nd Apron will cut in to our trade options, but there's always ways to be clever in the margins or just be patient and find the right big deal.

Yeah, I'm good on Garland for Jrue or Mitchell for LeBron, or even Mobley for Giannis. Everybody just wants us to become the Cleveland nursing home.

But i don't want to be a 2nd round treadmill team. I am a Bengals fan, unlike most of you. I watched the Bengals lose in the wildcard round 5 years in a row and 6 times in 7 years. It is the worst possible spot to be as a sports team. Essentially always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I'd rather be complete garbage or all way in, the in between sucks.

I really think you'd be more in to it if you were able to watch more of the regular season games. It's very different when you're following these guys through their career closely, and it's a lot harder to want to toss these guys overboard or give up on them because of some set backs.

[JujitsuFlip]

Good points, but those players still had to get where got AND have things fall in to place around them. A healthy Garland for instance would be a lot better option than whatever Jrue Holiday might contribute at 35/36 years old for us.

There's an element of luck and right time and right place that is out of everyone's control. I'm fine if that perfect confluence of events that led to us winning in 2016 doesn't repeat for this group as long as the team is fun to watch and there's hope.

So by all means keep the smart/opportunistic trades like getting Hunter for expiring LeVert, Niang, and some picks/rights of little import; and avoid the idiot crap the fans and media are tossing around like dumping Garland and/or Allen because they can't tell the difference between injuries and team construction.

And yes, I realize the 2nd Apron will cut in to our trade options, but there's always ways to be clever in the margins or just be patient and find the right big deal.

Yeah, I'm good on Garland for Jrue or Mitchell for LeBron, or even Mobley for Giannis. Everybody just wants us to become the Cleveland nursing home.

But i don't want to be a 2nd round treadmill team. I am a Bengals fan, unlike most of you. I watched the Bengals lose in the wildcard round 5 years in a row and 6 times in 7 years. It is the worst possible spot to be as a sports team. Essentially always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I'd rather be complete garbage or all way in, the in between sucks.

I really think you'd be more in to it if you were able to watch more of the regular season games. It's very different when you're following these guys through their career closely, and it's a lot harder to want to toss these guys overboard or give up on them because of some set backs.

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

[gflem]

I really think you'd be more in to it if you were able to watch more of the regular season games. It's very different when you're following these guys through their career closely, and it's a lot harder to want to toss these guys overboard or give up on them because of some set backs.

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

[JujitsuFlip]

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I am okay with standing pat this summer. Just because it's year 1 in the 2nd apron. We did just win 64 games and run into the injury bug, yet again.

But if it happens 1 more time, i am literally ready to move Allen and Garland for sure, not even against moving Mitchell if the move makes sense. Those guys values won't improve, as they age.

I'd say Koby better find 2 really great steals in the 2nd round tomorrow. Not sure it's possible but it's our best avenue to upgrade the roster. Give em 82 games to be ready to play some sort of playoff role.

Like I said, 2025-26 is Finals or bust for me and hopefully Koby agrees but he has fell in love with the core 4, so it may need to be him who goes before we can see a massive roster shake-up the hopefully leads to a better fit and a title.

[JonFromVA]

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I would have been very very happy if Wayne had kept the core the Cavs drafted in 1985-87 together and I doubt the outcome would have been worse; but to be clear I'm not insisting the Cavs need to stand pat, I'm insisting like I always do that we need to make smart moves that actually improve the team.

Health has been a problem for our entire Core 4 and there's no easy way to fix it - just trading Garland doesn't fix it - and doing so when his value is low and everyone is trying to rip us off is folly.

Let me repeat ... 64 wins and if we cared and had better health luck we would have set the franchise record. Don't dismiss what we've got.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah, I'm good on Garland for Jrue or Mitchell for LeBron, or even Mobley for Giannis. Everybody just wants us to become the Cleveland nursing home.

But i don't want to be a 2nd round treadmill team. I am a Bengals fan, unlike most of you. I watched the Bengals lose in the wildcard round 5 years in a row and 6 times in 7 years. It is the worst possible spot to be as a sports team. Essentially always the bridesmaid, never the bride. I'd rather be complete garbage or all way in, the in between sucks.

I really think you'd be more in to it if you were able to watch more of the regular season games. It's very different when you're following these guys through their career closely, and it's a lot harder to want to toss these guys overboard or give up on them because of some set backs.

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

[JujitsuFlip]

I really think you'd be more in to it if you were able to watch more of the regular season games. It's very different when you're following these guys through their career closely, and it's a lot harder to want to toss these guys overboard or give up on them because of some set backs.

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

[gflem]

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I would have been very very happy if Wayne had kept the core the Cavs drafted in 1985-87 together and I doubt the outcome would have been worse; but to be clear I'm not insisting the Cavs need to stand pat, I'm insisting like I always do that we need to make smart moves that actually improve the team.

Health has been a problem for our entire Core 4 and there's no easy way to fix it - just trading Garland doesn't fix it - and doing so when his value is low and everyone is trying to rip us off is folly.

Let me repeat ... 64 wins and if we cared and had better health luck we would have set the franchise record. Don't dismiss what we've got.

Of course I would want smart moves if we make them. I'm not saying trade Garland for just anything, but I believe you were one of the people last season saying the exact same thing, that his value was too low to trade him. As I said, I don't believe this past season helped much if any. The old adage of crap in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first may apply here.
You know why Embry traded Harper I assume, it wasn't change for the sake of change. It was a "loan" to an acquaintance that the FBI brought to the attention of Gund, while Harper was allegedly dating Gund's daughter. So, I am with you that the core of that team shouldn't have been broken up. I think you would agree that the fit of that roster before the Harper trade was much better than this team. Of course that team didn't really have a SF either.

[JonFromVA]

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

The team still has a lot of room to grow and learn together, and assuming we're stuck in the 2nd apron - continuous player development is paramount.

And while Ben Simmons decided to enjoy the sunshine, the Javonte Green signing was an indication that serious vets do respect what we're doing and want to be a part of it.

Regardless blowing this team up and starting over from scratch just isn't a serious option until we control our own picks again.

[JujitsuFlip]

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

The team still has a lot of room to grow and learn together, and assuming we're stuck in the 2nd apron - continuous player development is paramount.

And while Ben Simmons decided to enjoy the sunshine, the Javonte Green signing was an indication that serious vets do respect what we're doing and want to be a part of it.

Regardless blowing this team up and starting over from scratch just isn't a serious option until we control our own picks again.

We don't have to go the KP and Jrue route...

This is year 1 in the 2nd apron. That is why you give it 1 more shot this year. If ya lose on the 2nd round, then you finally put a roster together that fits.

Make Mobley play 5 and get an actual stretch big for Garland. Trade Allen for a big wing defender. You can keep Mitchell one more year in the scenario, if he's willing to play 1. Finally salary dump Okoro.

Moving deck chairs around doesn't mean going back to the dungeon, it just means the Cavs finally break up their double center double PG core 4.

[JonFromVA]

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I would have been very very happy if Wayne had kept the core the Cavs drafted in 1985-87 together and I doubt the outcome would have been worse; but to be clear I'm not insisting the Cavs need to stand pat, I'm insisting like I always do that we need to make smart moves that actually improve the team.

Health has been a problem for our entire Core 4 and there's no easy way to fix it - just trading Garland doesn't fix it - and doing so when his value is low and everyone is trying to rip us off is folly.

Let me repeat ... 64 wins and if we cared and had better health luck we would have set the franchise record. Don't dismiss what we've got.

Of course I would want smart moves if we make them. I'm not saying trade Garland for just anything, but I believe you were one of the people last season saying the exact same thing, that his value was too low to trade him. As I said, I don't believe this past season helped much if any. The old adage of crap in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first may apply here.
You know why Embry traded Harper I assume, it wasn't change for the sake of change. It was a "loan" to an acquaintance that the FBI brought to the attention of Gund, while Harper was allegedly dating Gund's daughter. So, I am with you that the core of that team shouldn't have been broken up. I think you would agree that the fit of that roster before the Harper trade was much better than this team. Of course that team didn't really have a SF either.

Yes, I know all the Harper rumors, but that doesn't change my preference (which btw included keeping KJ, West, Corbin, and picks over Nance Jr). Fact is the only trouble Harper ever got in to the rest of his career was that awful injury with the Clips. I would have started Hot Rod at PF, and then gone with Ehlo, Harper, and Price mixing in the likes of KJ, Corbin, and Dell Curry. And then in the draft that next season is it possible we might have drafted Marjele instead of gifting him to the Suns? All part of the dream.

Anyway, back to the subject. Fact is we could have traded Garland before the All-Star break last season and gotten much better value for him because he had restored his value and was looking great; but we didn't ... because he was looking great. *shrugs*

Something else I insisted on all last season was that our ceiling would be determined by who showed up healthy come playoff time.

Surely you listened to that too?

[gflem]

Yes, I know all the Harper rumors, but that doesn't change my preference (which btw included keeping KJ, West, Corbin, and picks over Nance Jr). Fact is the only trouble Harper ever got in to the rest of his career was that awful injury with the Clips. I would have started Hot Rod at PF, and then gone with Ehlo, Harper, and Price mixing in the likes of KJ, Corbin, and Dell Curry. And then in the draft that next season is it possible we might have drafted Marjele instead of gifting him to the Suns? All part of the dream.

Anyway, back to the subject. Fact is we could have traded Garland before the All-Star break last season and gotten much better value for him because he had restored his value and was looking great; but we didn't ... because he was looking great. *shrugs*

Something else I insisted on all last season was that our ceiling would be determined by who showed up healthy come playoff time.

Surely you listened to that too?

Yes, hoping for good health is always a part of going into the playoffs. Predicting that doesn't make one Nostradamus.
However, as I stated earlier, it has become obvious to me (and many others) that Garland can't hold up physically in the playoffs. It was obvious to me after the playoffs in 2024. Yes, he hurt his toe near the near of the regular season and re-injured it in the playoffs this season but he still wasn't available, or near his peak when he played. Good teams still hunt him on D, that isn't going to change. He made better effort this past season on D, but is still a liability.
As for the Harper trade, he was my favorite player at the time. I was livid about the trade. The KJ for Nance Sr. trade I was good with. It was either play Price and trade KJ, or trade Price and keep KJ. I am fine with how that played out. Interestingly, even then Embry knew that two undersized ball dominant guards wouldn't work, no matter how talented they were. And, yes, Marjele would have been perfect as the SF on that team, and we may well have beat the Bulls and won a title (or two) without the Harper trade.

[toooskies]

I mean, I've still watched all 28 post season games the last 4 years and obviously even went to game 4 in person this season. So it's not like I'm completely clueless to who our team is.

I'm just not sure how you or anyone else could think we can keep the core 4 together for 3 more years without ever actually challenging for a title.

Edit: even back to your examples of Jokic and Giannis, they had at least both been to a conference final, once before their actual title runs.

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I am okay with standing pat this summer. Just because it's year 1 in the 2nd apron. We did just win 64 games and run into the injury bug, yet again.

But if it happens 1 more time, i am literally ready to move Allen and Garland for sure, not even against moving Mitchell if the move makes sense. Those guys values won't improve, as they age.

I'd say Koby better find 2 really great steals in the 2nd round tomorrow. Not sure it's possible but it's our best avenue to upgrade the roster. Give em 82 games to be ready to play some sort of playoff role.

Like I said, 2025-26 is Finals or bust for me and hopefully Koby agrees but he has fell in love with the core 4, so it may need to be him who goes before we can see a massive roster shake-up the hopefully leads to a better fit and a title.

If our regular seasons didn't set the bar so high over the past years then our playoff disappointments would seem a lot less disappointing. The Cavs were a 4-seed in last year's preseason rankings. We've never been a preseason top 2 seed. We've only underachieved in the postseason if you expect us to play at the level that our regular seasons have established.

Teams lose series when they aren't 100%. Very few teams historically are a top 4 team in the league even when multiple players are hurt. We lost two games to a team who may have won the title if their own PG didn't get hurt. The team that won the title didn't miss any players due to injury, but survived 7 games against a Denver team that had seriously compromised players in Gordon and MPJ and then 7 against the Pacers where Haliburton's injury deflated the entire arena.

Fun fact: Our regular-season starting 5 against the Pacers? +1 in 34 total minutes despite the Garland, Mobley, and Mitchell injuries.

[toooskies]

Yes, hoping for good health is always a part of going into the playoffs. Predicting that doesn't make one Nostradamus.
However, as I stated earlier, it has become obvious to me (and many others) that Garland can't hold up physically in the playoffs. It was obvious to me after the playoffs in 2024. Yes, he hurt his toe near the near of the regular season and re-injured it in the playoffs this season but he still wasn't available, or near his peak when he played. Good teams still hunt him on D, that isn't going to change. He made better effort this past season on D, but is still a liability.
As for the Harper trade, he was my favorite player at the time. I was livid about the trade. The KJ for Nance Sr. trade I was good with. It was either play Price and trade KJ, or trade Price and keep KJ. I am fine with how that played out. Interestingly, even then Embry knew that two undersized ball dominant guards wouldn't work, no matter how talented they were. And, yes, Marjele would have been perfect as the SF on that team, and we may well have beat the Bulls and won a title (or two) without the Harper trade.

I think you can play two small guards in the volume 3-point shooting era, as long as those guards make their shots at a reasonable rate.

[JonFromVA]

Yes, hoping for good health is always a part of going into the playoffs. Predicting that doesn't make one Nostradamus.
However, as I stated earlier, it has become obvious to me (and many others) that Garland can't hold up physically in the playoffs. It was obvious to me after the playoffs in 2024. Yes, he hurt his toe near the near of the regular season and re-injured it in the playoffs this season but he still wasn't available, or near his peak when he played. Good teams still hunt him on D, that isn't going to change. He made better effort this past season on D, but is still a liability.
As for the Harper trade, he was my favorite player at the time. I was livid about the trade. The KJ for Nance Sr. trade I was good with. It was either play Price and trade KJ, or trade Price and keep KJ. I am fine with how that played out. Interestingly, even then Embry knew that two undersized ball dominant guards wouldn't work, no matter how talented they were. And, yes, Marjele would have been perfect as the SF on that team, and we may well have beat the Bulls and won a title (or two) without the Harper trade.

I think you can play two small guards in the volume 3-point shooting era, as long as those guards make their shots at a reasonable rate.

Let me emphasize that point stronger ... Garland and Mitchell need to be more than respectable, they need to be awesome in the post season. We are giving something up by going small in our back court and they need to make up for that by bringing all levels of their respective offensive games to bear.

The injuries aren't allowing them to do it. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

If gflem has seen enough and wants to throw in the towel, well, why stop at Garland?

Mitchell has been dealing with injuries in the post season for like 5 seasons in a row dating back to the Jazz. Do we expect Mobley or Allen to have it easy considering their builds and play style? Hunter has been an injury waiting to happen throughout his career. Okoro and Wade too. Jerome missed an entire season. Even Strus isn't immune.

[JonFromVA]

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

The team still has a lot of room to grow and learn together, and assuming we're stuck in the 2nd apron - continuous player development is paramount.

And while Ben Simmons decided to enjoy the sunshine, the Javonte Green signing was an indication that serious vets do respect what we're doing and want to be a part of it.

Regardless blowing this team up and starting over from scratch just isn't a serious option until we control our own picks again.

We don't have to go the KP and Jrue route...

This is year 1 in the 2nd apron. That is why you give it 1 more shot this year. If ya lose on the 2nd round, then you finally put a roster together that fits.

Make Mobley play 5 and get an actual stretch big for Garland. Trade Allen for a big wing defender. You can keep Mitchell one more year in the scenario, if he's willing to play 1. Finally salary dump Okoro.

Moving deck chairs around doesn't mean going back to the dungeon, it just means the Cavs finally break up their double center double PG core 4.

I'm sure the Lakers will give us Finney-Smith and Hachimura for Allen and Garland ... but that doesn't turn Mitchell in to a PG.

[JujitsuFlip]

If our regular seasons didn't set the bar so high over the past years then our playoff disappointments would seem a lot less disappointing. The Cavs were a 4-seed in last year's preseason rankings. We've never been a preseason top 2 seed. We've only underachieved in the postseason if you expect us to play at the level that our regular seasons have established.

Teams lose series when they aren't 100%. Very few teams historically are a top 4 team in the league even when multiple players are hurt. We lost two games to a team who may have won the title if their own PG didn't get hurt. The team that won the title didn't miss any players due to injury, but survived 7 games against a Denver team that had seriously compromised players in Gordon and MPJ and then 7 against the Pacers where Haliburton's injury deflated the entire arena.

Fun fact: Our regular-season starting 5 against the Pacers? +1 in 34 total minutes despite the Garland, Mobley, and Mitchell injuries.

Well no, it's like Jon pointed out, my mindset changed when we traded 3 unprotected 1sts, 2 unprotected 1st pick swaps, and our rookie before he played a single second for us.

When a team goes all in like that, ya can't be the 2022 feel good Cavs anymore. Ya actually gotta start winning meaningful basketball games.

I am fully aware injuries have derailed all 4 post season runs, why i am saying give it 1 more season.

But if injuries hit in spring again, for the 5th time and we lose in any round other than the Finals, ya start trying something different. You say for whatever reason, this combination of guys just can't stay healthy, when it matters. We need to pivot, if we wanna get over the hump.

[JujitsuFlip]

The team still has a lot of room to grow and learn together, and assuming we're stuck in the 2nd apron - continuous player development is paramount.

And while Ben Simmons decided to enjoy the sunshine, the Javonte Green signing was an indication that serious vets do respect what we're doing and want to be a part of it.

Regardless blowing this team up and starting over from scratch just isn't a serious option until we control our own picks again.

We don't have to go the KP and Jrue route...

This is year 1 in the 2nd apron. That is why you give it 1 more shot this year. If ya lose on the 2nd round, then you finally put a roster together that fits.

Make Mobley play 5 and get an actual stretch big for Garland. Trade Allen for a big wing defender. You can keep Mitchell one more year in the scenario, if he's willing to play 1. Finally salary dump Okoro.

Moving deck chairs around doesn't mean going back to the dungeon, it just means the Cavs finally break up their double center double PG core 4.

I'm sure the Lakers will give us Finney-Smith and Hachimura for Allen and Garland ... but that doesn't turn Mitchell in to a PG.

DFS is maybe an UFA (has a PO) and defensively Hachimura is not the type of wing I'd target, personally.

And Mitch doesn't have to be a 'PG' he just needs to be willing to play 1. Kenny loves running offense through Mobley.

[toooskies]

Yes, hoping for good health is always a part of going into the playoffs. Predicting that doesn't make one Nostradamus.
However, as I stated earlier, it has become obvious to me (and many others) that Garland can't hold up physically in the playoffs. It was obvious to me after the playoffs in 2024. Yes, he hurt his toe near the near of the regular season and re-injured it in the playoffs this season but he still wasn't available, or near his peak when he played. Good teams still hunt him on D, that isn't going to change. He made better effort this past season on D, but is still a liability.
As for the Harper trade, he was my favorite player at the time. I was livid about the trade. The KJ for Nance Sr. trade I was good with. It was either play Price and trade KJ, or trade Price and keep KJ. I am fine with how that played out. Interestingly, even then Embry knew that two undersized ball dominant guards wouldn't work, no matter how talented they were. And, yes, Marjele would have been perfect as the SF on that team, and we may well have beat the Bulls and won a title (or two) without the Harper trade.

I think you can play two small guards in the volume 3-point shooting era, as long as those guards make their shots at a reasonable rate.

Let me emphasize that point stronger ... Garland and Mitchell need to be more than respectable, they need to be awesome in the post season. We are giving something up by going small in our back court and they need to make up for that by bringing all levels of their respective offensive games to bear.

The injuries aren't allowing them to do it. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

If gflem has seen enough and wants to throw in the towel, well, why stop at Garland?

Mitchell has been dealing with injuries in the post season for like 5 seasons in a row dating back to the Jazz. Do we expect Mobley or Allen to have it easy considering their builds and play style? Hunter has been an injury waiting to happen throughout his career. Okoro and Wade too. Jerome missed an entire season. Even Strus isn't immune.

In the Cavs' three single-digit losses to the Pacers they shot under 30% from three. Mitchell, Garland, and Jerome all shot 25% or less from three for the series. The margin for winning game 2 was literally a last-second basket. The margin for games 1 and 5 is a few threes going in to change how the last minutes play out. Even with the injuries we had, we were only some cold shooting away from winning one or two more games of that series-- and who knows what happens in that case.

The team we lost to was an Achilles tear away from possibly winning the title. (We lost to the team that won the title last year, too.)

Perspective is hard here. We only got to round 2, but when you lose to a team that would make the Finals and/or win the title, it's hard to see the perspective of how close we actually were. We had three make-or-miss games and we lost all three because we missed shots and Indiana made them.

[JonFromVA]

Where were you? We were challenging for a title this year and the door was wide open for us, but we got derailed by injuries again. How do we fix that AND remain talented enough to challenge again?

Hoping for better luck is a viable option as is continuing to develop our bench to fill in better when we have injuries all while continuing to build experience and chemistry that only comes from a core group playing together.

While you've been watching the Cavs go 12-16 over those 28 post season games, I was watching the Cavs go an entire month without losing a game. It's got to alter perception.

Gentleman swept out of the 2nd round is not challenging for a title, sorry. We could do that with John Blair, the sights are much higher than just being happy to be here.

They've been playing together for 4 years John, what more do you think they're gonna learn from one another? As a 2nd apron team, our depth will only continue to get worse, not better.

Yeah, you watched them go 1 month without losing a game, when it doesn't matter. They can go 82-0 next regular season, it literally doesn't matter. What do you win for doing that? Not a Larry O'Brien, that's for damn sure.

Wayne Embry had a saying back in the day, "never fall in love with a player". Trying to suggest that trading Garland or Allen on this board usually brings out negative/slightly condescending responses. I was of the mind to move Garland last season, and I really don't think he improved his value much if at all this season. To me, he just reinforced that he is fragile and not to be counted on in the playoffs when the game gets more physical.
In watching what is going on around the league I think there is a less than 50% chance that this team improves its chances to make the finals by sitting on their hands once again this offseason. Just because Boston is deconstructing to avoid the 2nd apron and Hali tore his achilles doesn't mean the Cavs should stand pat. This team still needs athleticism and size on the wing, and a playable back up big with some bulk who isn't afraid to be physical when he plays.
Without making a move or two there isn't a way to acquire players that fit those needs. Just saying that year two with Kenny as coach will fix these issues is being naive to me.

I am okay with standing pat this summer. Just because it's year 1 in the 2nd apron. We did just win 64 games and run into the injury bug, yet again.

But if it happens 1 more time, i am literally ready to move Allen and Garland for sure, not even against moving Mitchell if the move makes sense. Those guys values won't improve, as they age.

I'd say Koby better find 2 really great steals in the 2nd round tomorrow. Not sure it's possible but it's our best avenue to upgrade the roster. Give em 82 games to be ready to play some sort of playoff role.

Like I said, 2025-26 is Finals or bust for me and hopefully Koby agrees but he has fell in love with the core 4, so it may need to be him who goes before we can see a massive roster shake-up the hopefully leads to a better fit and a title.

If our regular seasons didn't set the bar so high over the past years then our playoff disappointments would seem a lot less disappointing. The Cavs were a 4-seed in last year's preseason rankings. We've never been a preseason top 2 seed. We've only underachieved in the postseason if you expect us to play at the level that our regular seasons have established.

Teams lose series when they aren't 100%. Very few teams historically are a top 4 team in the league even when multiple players are hurt. We lost two games to a team who may have won the title if their own PG didn't get hurt. The team that won the title didn't miss any players due to injury, but survived 7 games against a Denver team that had seriously compromised players in Gordon and MPJ and then 7 against the Pacers where Haliburton's injury deflated the entire arena.

Fun fact: Our regular-season starting 5 against the Pacers? +1 in 34 total minutes despite the Garland, Mobley, and Mitchell injuries.

For what it's worth, OKC's Jaylin Williams did miss games due to an injury, but they've still got two other William's.