Trade Ideas

[ijspeelman]

https://kingjamesgospel.com/cavaliers-could-steal-perfect-veteran-wing-after-latest-blockbuster-bulls-trade

I'd be down for Torrey Craig. I think he would be gone, since if we duck the tax on Thursday, we won't be able turn around and sign a guy to a pro rated vet min, we'll have to wait a bit.

Craig is 34 years old and has never had a positive on/off, and has been strongly negative recently.

I think we'd be better off playing small than putting him out there.

He just feels like another Niang to me which is fine if we are planning on shipping him out

[jbk1234]

https://kingjamesgospel.com/cavaliers-could-steal-perfect-veteran-wing-after-latest-blockbuster-bulls-trade

I'd be down for Torrey Craig. I think he would be gone, since if we duck the tax on Thursday, we won't be able turn around and sign a guy to a pro rated vet min, we'll have to wait a bit.

Craig is 34 years old and has never had a positive on/off, and has been strongly negative recently.

I think we'd be better off playing small than putting him out there.

I'm fine with picking up Craig so long as it's not at the expense of the 4/5 we actually need.

[ijspeelman]

Any love for a deal centered around Gary Payton II for Okoro + Merrill?

Gets us under the tax apron and replaces Okoro. Payton is an expiring at the end of the season so more money to spend on LeVert + Jerome or someone else.

I'll be honest... IDK how I feel about it, but just wanted some thoughts lol

[JujitsuFlip]

Any love for a deal centered around Gary Payton II for Okoro + Merrill?

Gets us under the tax apron and replaces Okoro. Payton is an expiring at the end of the season so more money to spend on LeVert + Jerome or someone else.

I'll be honest... IDK how I feel about it, but just wanted some thoughts lol

Meh, I'm good, for real.

They felt compelled to put out a report and state Niang won't be traded, so jbk won't like that.

[jbk1234]

Any love for a deal centered around Gary Payton II for Okoro + Merrill?

Gets us under the tax apron and replaces Okoro. Payton is an expiring at the end of the season so more money to spend on LeVert + Jerome or someone else.

I'll be honest... IDK how I feel about it, but just wanted some thoughts lol

Eh, I think I pass on that. If Okoro can stay healthy, I'd rather have him going forward. If all we're doing is getting under the tax, just trade Merrill for cap space.

[toooskies]

A nice infographic on skirting the tax.

He did the math on the 10-day contract cycling and it looks like Merrill would be the one to go.

Edit: Still assumes that random CPJ cap hit discrepancy so that might push TT and CPJ into viability too.

[JonFromVA]

A nice infographic on skirting the tax.

He did the math on the 10-day contract cycling and it looks like Merrill would be the one to go.

I heard the podcast episode where he talked about all of this, but the thing I didn't understand is: I thought a minimum salary player was the same cap hit regardless of years of service.

[JujitsuFlip]

A nice infographic on skirting the tax.

He did the math on the 10-day contract cycling and it looks like Merrill would be the one to go.

I heard the podcast episode where he talked about all of this, but the thing I didn't understand is: I thought a minimum salary player was the same cap hit regardless of years of service.

Nah, it's always been tiered. Idk how many tiers it is broken into now but used to be 3, i think.

[toooskies]

A nice infographic on skirting the tax.

He did the math on the 10-day contract cycling and it looks like Merrill would be the one to go.

I heard the podcast episode where he talked about all of this, but the thing I didn't understand is: I thought a minimum salary player was the same cap hit regardless of years of service.

Not exactly. There is a cap on a minimum salary's cap hit, but it is not at the rookie level. Tristan Thompson is on a minimum and his cap hit is ~$2m despite being paid $3.3m by the Cavs. But a rookie is around $1m.

I'd have to track down the exact language in the CBA. (One thing the graphic assumes that I didn't know was true was if a two-way contract conveys a year of service when calculating minimums. I assumed Emoni was second-year guy because he was on a two-way last year.)

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/cleveland-cavaliers-showing-trade-interest-atlanta-hawks-forward-deandre-hunter

Hunter would be a dream starting at SF, sign me up!

[mcfly1204]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/cleveland-cavaliers-showing-trade-interest-atlanta-hawks-forward-deandre-hunter

Hunter would be a dream starting at SF, sign me up!

While I wouldn't necessarily complain if Hunter ended up in Cleveland, he's not cheap, he's only played 60 or more games in 2 of 5 seasons, and his hot shooting start this season is regressing back down to his averages.

[toooskies]

I just don't see the incentive for Atlanta to tank, this year or in the short term. They don't have their draft pick next year. They'd need to get their pick back from San Antonio to tank.

And if Hunter isn't a factor in whether they're tanking or not, we have to ask ourselves if he's actually improving anything for us. He might be 6'8", but is he actually going to bother Jayson Tatum? Is he going to positively impact our rebounding or bother players at the rim?

If he doesn't play the 3 better than LeVert, what's the point?

[jbk1234]

I just don't see the incentive for Atlanta to tank, this year or in the short term. They don't have their draft pick next year. They'd need to get their pick back from San Antonio to tank.

And if Hunter isn't a factor in whether they're tanking or not, we have to ask ourselves if he's actually improving anything for us. He might be 6'8", but is he actually going to bother Jayson Tatum? Is he going to positively impact our rebounding or bother players at the rim?

If he doesn't play the 3 better than LeVert, what's the point?

This would be a move to shed future salary for the Hawks. Johnson getting injured means their ceiling is a play-in team regardless of whether LeVert or Hunter is playing the 3 for them. From the Cavs perspective, Niang has to be in the outbox. Assuming you can retain Jerome for that league average exception, you'll be in nose bleed territory.

[toooskies]

I just don't see the incentive for Atlanta to tank, this year or in the short term. They don't have their draft pick next year. They'd need to get their pick back from San Antonio to tank.

And if Hunter isn't a factor in whether they're tanking or not, we have to ask ourselves if he's actually improving anything for us. He might be 6'8", but is he actually going to bother Jayson Tatum? Is he going to positively impact our rebounding or bother players at the rim?

If he doesn't play the 3 better than LeVert, what's the point?

This would be a move to shed future salary for the Hawks. Johnson getting injured means their ceiling is a play-in team regardless of whether LeVert or Hunter is playing the 3 for them. From the Cavs perspective, Niang has to be in the outbox. Assuming you can retain Jerome for that league average exception, you'll be in nose bleed territory.

Can Atlanta get to a place where they can afford a meaningful free agent in the offseason? I don't see it unless they make multiple cap-clearing moves. Bogdan and Okongwu for expirings, too.

From the Cavs' perspective, I'm saying you're better off having LeVert + Niang for the length of Hunter's contract at SF than you are having Hunter. Hunter has never been a good defender. Just sign LeVert for under $20m/year for the next two years and you're at parity financially. And you likely sign him for less. (If the Cavs don't let him expire on purpose.)

[jbk1234]

I just don't see the incentive for Atlanta to tank, this year or in the short term. They don't have their draft pick next year. They'd need to get their pick back from San Antonio to tank.

And if Hunter isn't a factor in whether they're tanking or not, we have to ask ourselves if he's actually improving anything for us. He might be 6'8", but is he actually going to bother Jayson Tatum? Is he going to positively impact our rebounding or bother players at the rim?

If he doesn't play the 3 better than LeVert, what's the point?

This would be a move to shed future salary for the Hawks. Johnson getting injured means their ceiling is a play-in team regardless of whether LeVert or Hunter is playing the 3 for them. From the Cavs perspective, Niang has to be in the outbox. Assuming you can retain Jerome for that league average exception, you'll be in nose bleed territory.

Can Atlanta get to a place where they can afford a meaningful free agent in the offseason? I don't see it unless they make multiple cap-clearing moves. Bogdan and Okongwu for expirings, too.

From the Cavs' perspective, I'm saying you're better off having LeVert + Niang for the length of Hunter's contract at SF than you are having Hunter. Hunter has never been a good defender. Just sign LeVert for under $20m/year for the next two years and you're at parity financially. And you likely sign him for less. (If the Cavs don't let him expire on purpose.)

We have very, very different evaluations of LeVert and Niang's worth.

[KuruptedCav]

DeAndre Hunter is soft. His regular season defense is fine; you get to the playoffs and the refs swallow their whistle some and he becomes a turnstile.

If you are accepting Hunter you might as well pay for Johnson.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[toooskies]

This would be a move to shed future salary for the Hawks. Johnson getting injured means their ceiling is a play-in team regardless of whether LeVert or Hunter is playing the 3 for them. From the Cavs perspective, Niang has to be in the outbox. Assuming you can retain Jerome for that league average exception, you'll be in nose bleed territory.

Can Atlanta get to a place where they can afford a meaningful free agent in the offseason? I don't see it unless they make multiple cap-clearing moves. Bogdan and Okongwu for expirings, too.

From the Cavs' perspective, I'm saying you're better off having LeVert + Niang for the length of Hunter's contract at SF than you are having Hunter. Hunter has never been a good defender. Just sign LeVert for under $20m/year for the next two years and you're at parity financially. And you likely sign him for less. (If the Cavs don't let him expire on purpose.)

We have very, very different evaluations of LeVert and Niang's worth.

I just don't think Hunter's very good.

His shooting is very good, has been good, and is peaking-- although those numbers have slipped a lot lately.

He's just a scorer, not a passer. More turnovers than assists this year. One of only two players to score 18+ ppg but under 2 apg. Not a promising fit for the Cavs' offense. (Compare to LeVert, who's only behind a handful of players for most assists/g from a bench player.)

Not a good rebounder for a 3/4. (LeVert has similar rebounding rates as a 2/3.)

No rim protection. (LeVert has more blocks per game.)

Hunter has a worse DARKO and EPM than LeVert. Particularly defensively.

Hunter is paid significantly more than LeVert and more than his production. You will probably be able to sign LeVert to the same contract he has now in the offseason, making LeVert + Niang cheaper than Hunter as Hunter's deal escalates. Or you can let LeVert walk and save tax money.

Hunter has played in fewer games that LeVert since he came into the league.

The Hawks don't have enough tax space to let us get under the tax and stay under it themselves, so we still need to pay assets elsewhere to get out of the tax.

Maybe Hunter is younger and has upside. (LeVert might have been as bad a defender as Hunter was at the same age.) But I don't think this trade would make us a better basketball team.

[jbk1234]

Can Atlanta get to a place where they can afford a meaningful free agent in the offseason? I don't see it unless they make multiple cap-clearing moves. Bogdan and Okongwu for expirings, too.

From the Cavs' perspective, I'm saying you're better off having LeVert + Niang for the length of Hunter's contract at SF than you are having Hunter. Hunter has never been a good defender. Just sign LeVert for under $20m/year for the next two years and you're at parity financially. And you likely sign him for less. (If the Cavs don't let him expire on purpose.)

We have very, very different evaluations of LeVert and Niang's worth.

I just don't think Hunter's very good.

His shooting is very good, has been good, and is peaking-- although those numbers have slipped a lot lately.

He's just a scorer, not a passer. More turnovers than assists this year. One of only two players to score 18+ ppg but under 2 apg. Not a promising fit for the Cavs' offense. (Compare to LeVert, who's only behind a handful of players for most assists/g from a bench player.)

Not a good rebounder for a 3/4. (LeVert has similar rebounding rates as a 2/3.)

No rim protection. (LeVert has more blocks per game.)

Hunter has a worse DARKO and EPM than LeVert. Particularly defensively.

Hunter is paid significantly more than LeVert and more than his production. You will probably be able to sign LeVert to the same contract he has now in the offseason, making LeVert + Niang cheaper than Hunter as Hunter's deal escalates. Or you can let LeVert walk and save tax money.

Hunter has played in fewer games that LeVert since he came into the league.

The Hawks don't have enough tax space to let us get under the tax and stay under it themselves, so we still need to pay assets elsewhere to get out of the tax.

Maybe Hunter is younger and has upside. (LeVert might have been as bad a defender as Hunter was at the same age.) But I don't think this trade would make us a better basketball team.

Hunter has a net positive on/off over the course of his career and the Hawks have surrounded him with such bad defensive personnel over the course of his career it's a little difficult to rely upon DARKO or EPM (which I hate as a stat) as determanitive. He's a better rebounder than either guy we're giving up, and if that's still unimpressive, it's because LeVert and Niang are horrid rebounders.

Really what it comes down to for me is that I've witnessed Hunter have good playoff games while I've witnessed Niang and LeVert be absolute liabilities in playoffs. Not just in the playoffs, but against playoff teams in meaningful regular season games. This isn't even an Okoro situation where he's young enough to reasonably expect something different.

LeVert isn't as get-him-off-the-court bad as Niang, but he disappears plenty against good defenses, and he's barely passable on defense. As far as his next contract, I don't think he gets an offer above the MLE from another team. This is the second time we have had him on an expiring contract at the deadline. Hunter is the best player that we know of who's been offered. There's a reason for that.

LeVert is a jack of many of trades master of none who is good injury insurance and an adequate sixth man. Strus and Okoro are better defenders (Strus is also a far better rebounder). Ty Jerome is a far better sixth man. Unless he's willing to come back on a team-friendly deal, the Cavs should wish him well this summer.

Is there a team in the NBA right now who will take Niang's salary for a second? Same question but two 2nds? He's a minimum salary/BAE player who was outplayed by Morris last post season.

[toooskies]

We have very, very different evaluations of LeVert and Niang's worth.

I just don't think Hunter's very good.

His shooting is very good, has been good, and is peaking-- although those numbers have slipped a lot lately.

He's just a scorer, not a passer. More turnovers than assists this year. One of only two players to score 18+ ppg but under 2 apg. Not a promising fit for the Cavs' offense. (Compare to LeVert, who's only behind a handful of players for most assists/g from a bench player.)

Not a good rebounder for a 3/4. (LeVert has similar rebounding rates as a 2/3.)

No rim protection. (LeVert has more blocks per game.)

Hunter has a worse DARKO and EPM than LeVert. Particularly defensively.

Hunter is paid significantly more than LeVert and more than his production. You will probably be able to sign LeVert to the same contract he has now in the offseason, making LeVert + Niang cheaper than Hunter as Hunter's deal escalates. Or you can let LeVert walk and save tax money.

Hunter has played in fewer games that LeVert since he came into the league.

The Hawks don't have enough tax space to let us get under the tax and stay under it themselves, so we still need to pay assets elsewhere to get out of the tax.

Maybe Hunter is younger and has upside. (LeVert might have been as bad a defender as Hunter was at the same age.) But I don't think this trade would make us a better basketball team.

Hunter has a net positive on/off over the course of his career and the Hawks have surrounded him with such bad defensive personnel over the course of his career it's a little difficult to rely upon DARKO or EPM (which I hate as a stat) as determanitive. He's a better rebounder than either guy we're giving up, and if that's still unimpressive, it's because LeVert and Niang are horrid rebounders.

Really what it comes down to for me is that I've witnessed Hunter have good playoff games while I've witnessed Niang and LeVert be absolute liabilities in playoffs. Not just in the playoffs, but against playoff teams in meaningful regular season games. This isn't even an Okoro situation where he's young enough to reasonably expect something different.

LeVert isn't as get-him-off-the-court bad as Niang, but he disappears plenty against good defenses, and he's barely passable on defense. As far as his next contract, I don't think he gets an offer above the MLE from another team. This is the second time we have had him on an expiring contract at the deadline. Hunter is the best player that we know of who's been offered. There's a reason for that.

LeVert is a jack of many of trades master of none who is good injury insurance and an adequate sixth man. Strus and Okoro are better defenders (Strus is also a far better rebounder). Ty Jerome is a far better sixth man. Unless he's willing to come back on a team-friendly deal, the Cavs should wish him well this summer.

Is there a team in the NBA right now who will take Niang's salary for a second? Same question but two 2nds? He's a minimum salary/BAE player who was outplayed by Morris last post season.

You do understand that Atlanta has been consistently disappointed that Hunter hasn't matched that one good playoff series he had in 2022, even in regular season stretches, until earlier this year-- but he's fallen off again recently.

[jbk1234]

I just don't think Hunter's very good.

His shooting is very good, has been good, and is peaking-- although those numbers have slipped a lot lately.

He's just a scorer, not a passer. More turnovers than assists this year. One of only two players to score 18+ ppg but under 2 apg. Not a promising fit for the Cavs' offense. (Compare to LeVert, who's only behind a handful of players for most assists/g from a bench player.)

Not a good rebounder for a 3/4. (LeVert has similar rebounding rates as a 2/3.)

No rim protection. (LeVert has more blocks per game.)

Hunter has a worse DARKO and EPM than LeVert. Particularly defensively.

Hunter is paid significantly more than LeVert and more than his production. You will probably be able to sign LeVert to the same contract he has now in the offseason, making LeVert + Niang cheaper than Hunter as Hunter's deal escalates. Or you can let LeVert walk and save tax money.

Hunter has played in fewer games that LeVert since he came into the league.

The Hawks don't have enough tax space to let us get under the tax and stay under it themselves, so we still need to pay assets elsewhere to get out of the tax.

Maybe Hunter is younger and has upside. (LeVert might have been as bad a defender as Hunter was at the same age.) But I don't think this trade would make us a better basketball team.

Hunter has a net positive on/off over the course of his career and the Hawks have surrounded him with such bad defensive personnel over the course of his career it's a little difficult to rely upon DARKO or EPM (which I hate as a stat) as determanitive. He's a better rebounder than either guy we're giving up, and if that's still unimpressive, it's because LeVert and Niang are horrid rebounders.

Really what it comes down to for me is that I've witnessed Hunter have good playoff games while I've witnessed Niang and LeVert be absolute liabilities in playoffs. Not just in the playoffs, but against playoff teams in meaningful regular season games. This isn't even an Okoro situation where he's young enough to reasonably expect something different.

LeVert isn't as get-him-off-the-court bad as Niang, but he disappears plenty against good defenses, and he's barely passable on defense. As far as his next contract, I don't think he gets an offer above the MLE from another team. This is the second time we have had him on an expiring contract at the deadline. Hunter is the best player that we know of who's been offered. There's a reason for that.

LeVert is a jack of many of trades master of none who is good injury insurance and an adequate sixth man. Strus and Okoro are better defenders (Strus is also a far better rebounder). Ty Jerome is a far better sixth man. Unless he's willing to come back on a team-friendly deal, the Cavs should wish him well this summer.

Is there a team in the NBA right now who will take Niang's salary for a second? Same question but two 2nds? He's a minimum salary/BAE player who was outplayed by Morris last post season.

You do understand that Atlanta has been consistently disappointed that Hunter hasn't matched that one good playoff series he had in 2022, even in regular season stretches, until earlier this year-- but he's fallen off again recently.

Yeah, that's why he's even available for what we'd offer, but we don't actually need him to match that series as a core piece. We just need him not to suck and play some small ball 4.