Trade Ideas (Part III)

[KuruptedCav]

What people aren't allowing for is that on another team, Sexton's usage and FGAs would look a lot like Clarkson's usage and FGAs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

What people aren't allowing for is that on another team, Sexton's usage and FGAs would look a lot like Clarkson's usage and FGAs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

That’s not the issue. The issue is that we think his efficiency continues its trajectory.

Clarkson and Sexton have the same usage rate. The difference is that Clarkson has it primarily against a second unit.

Drop Collin’s usage to 20-25 and he looks a heck of a lot like Terry Rozier/Fred Vanvleet. And that’s what we expect to see with Rubio running the second unit.

Move him to the bench like Clarkson and mix in Conley, Mitchell, Gobert, Bogs, etc.

Actually, that’s a good question. Would Utah trade Clarkson for Sexton on the same contract?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Well Clarkson plays 28min. Not 20-25. He also plays a lot more with the 1s than you think he does, especially towards the end of games. I watched him do it all postseason, its not like he is out there strictly with 2nd units all the time. He was helping close out games in the playoffs.

I think the Jazz would do the trade strictly because of age, but Clarkson fits exactly what the Jazz need and thats a guy who could come off the bench and light up the scoreboard. I dont think Sextons more slow and methodical ISO approach would work on that Jazz team.

Usage rate and minutes per game are not the same thing.

Yes, lineups are fluid. But the fact remains that Jordan Clarkson is never the defensive focal point. Fun fact though, he’s the only player who is part of the 5 worst Utah Jazz lineups by net-rating.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

I take it your feeling ganged up on and don't feel in the mood for rational discourse.

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The Cavs have every opportunity in the world to value another guard over Mobley and they didn't. They also could have used future 2nds to at minimum add a big pg/combo like Dosumnu or a spacer like Weiskamp at the 2 and 3 but they instead opted for Sexton and Okoro. They also added a veteran pg who is a better playmaker than DG but got rid of a floor spacer

Oh, I think they did and he wasn't on the board at No. 3. That said, Mobley was clearly the best player left on the board and they were right to draft him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

We're comparing Sexton to LBJ now? Because I really can't imagine a less apt comparison.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I take it your feeling ganged up on and don't feel in the mood for rational discourse.

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

[Revenged25]

I take it your feeling ganged up on and don't feel in the mood for rational discourse.

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

[jbk1234]

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Revenged25]

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

There's no way 1/3rd of the season would influence his averages/efficiency that much. Especially when you actually look at the splits. He scored basically at will the entire season. Sure he had some bad games, everyone does, but he scored just as many points on just as many attempts as a lot of the other players you'd rather have.

Also Booker's teams with better teammates were just as bad until they got their coaching and roster composition together. So seriously go sit down in your corner crying into you DG jersey.

[jbk1234]

I take it your feeling ganged up on and don't feel in the mood for rational discourse.

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

LBJ is one of the best players at history in terms of seeing the floor, making the right pass, and running an offense. He also understood the value of getting his teammates going and made a concerted effort to do so starting in the first quarter. There's just no comparison in terms of the two players.

Also, where is spacing getting inserted into starting lineup? Garland is the best three point shooter on the roster and playing him next to Sexton is, at best, problematic defensively. If you could trade Garland for a different PG who could shoot as well but also defend the 2, who would that player be?

A three and D SF would be great, but who is trading one of those? They're the most sought after guys in the NBA. We can't even get a poor man's version of one of those players to sign here (which is something else to consider before committing to Sexton). Also, it would basically mean moving Okoro to the bench.

Mobley is our PF, and the one season he was healthy, Love hating playing alongside Sexton because Sexton treated him like a $30M decoy. We just inked Allen to a $100M extension. Are we trading him?

If we could wave a wand and bring in defensive floor spacers, and we can't, how do you get them into the starting lineup alongside Sexton?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[jbk1234]

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

There's no way 1/3rd of the season would influence his averages/efficiency that much. Especially when you actually look at the splits. He scored basically at will the entire season. Sure he had some bad games, everyone does, but he scored just as many points on just as many attempts as a lot of the other players you'd rather have.

Also Booker's teams with better teammates were just as bad until they got their coaching and roster composition together. So seriously go sit down in your corner crying into you DG jersey.

The splits are publicly available. I'm not making it up.

And for the umpteenth time Sexton isn't Booker. Booker provides floor spacing, Sexton takes away floor spacing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Revenged25]

He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

There's no way 1/3rd of the season would influence his averages/efficiency that much. Especially when you actually look at the splits. He scored basically at will the entire season. Sure he had some bad games, everyone does, but he scored just as many points on just as many attempts as a lot of the other players you'd rather have.

Also Booker's teams with better teammates were just as bad until they got their coaching and roster composition together. So seriously go sit down in your corner crying into you DG jersey.

The splits are publicly available. I'm not making it up.

And for the umpteenth time Sexton isn't Booker. Booker provides floor spacing, Sexton takes away floor spacing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Yeah and his worst split was 22.6 ppg on average positional efficiency.

[jbk1234]

There's no way 1/3rd of the season would influence his averages/efficiency that much. Especially when you actually look at the splits. He scored basically at will the entire season. Sure he had some bad games, everyone does, but he scored just as many points on just as many attempts as a lot of the other players you'd rather have.

Also Booker's teams with better teammates were just as bad until they got their coaching and roster composition together. So seriously go sit down in your corner crying into you DG jersey.

The splits are publicly available. I'm not making it up.

And for the umpteenth time Sexton isn't Booker. Booker provides floor spacing, Sexton takes away floor spacing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Yeah and his worst split was 22.6 ppg on average positional efficiency.

*Average positional efficiency* for someone who shoots that much and plays no defense actually makes him a net negative out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Revenged25]

The splits are publicly available. I'm not making it up.

And for the umpteenth time Sexton isn't Booker. Booker provides floor spacing, Sexton takes away floor spacing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Yeah and his worst split was 22.6 ppg on average positional efficiency.

*Average positional efficiency* for someone who shoots that much and plays no defense actually makes him a net negative out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Damn you should really hate Garland who plays no defense, below average positional efficiency.

[jbk1234]

Yeah and his worst split was 22.6 ppg on average positional efficiency.

*Average positional efficiency* for someone who shoots that much and plays no defense actually makes him a net negative out there.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Damn you should really hate Garland who plays no defense, below average positional efficiency.

Neither of those things are true, and this isn't about Garland because the Cavs aren't about to make a potentially irreversible 5-year commitment to him with no plan as to how to make it work.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

The reason the advanced stats aren't impressed with Collin is because he doesnt fill up the box score in as many ways as elite guards do. So short of him doing that he needs to get his scoring efficiency pumped up much higher.

Better floor spacing, shot selection, and reads may be all he needs to take his offensive game to another level and as a bonus his assists will go up as well.

And by reads I don't mean his court vision needs to fundamentally change, but rather his ability to identify that when X slides over to contest his shot that he needs to pass to Y who will be in his spot or cutting as appropriate.

More quick and predictable decisions ... less driving like a young bull in to a crowd.

Training camp and practice time are integral to making this happen as well.

But can we actually get some shooters on the floor? Will Mobley and Okoro give us at least something on open 3"s?

[JonFromVA]

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

LBJ is one of the best players at history in terms of seeing the floor, making the right pass, and running an offense. He also understood the value of getting his teammates going and made a concerted effort to do so starting in the first quarter. There's just no comparison in terms of the two players.

Also, where is spacing getting inserted into starting lineup? Garland is the best three point shooter on the roster and playing him next to Sexton is, at best, problematic defensively. If you could trade Garland for a different PG who could shoot as well but also defend the 2, who would that player be?

A three and D SF would be great, but who is trading one of those? They're the most sought after guys in the NBA. We can't even get a poor man's version of one of those players to sign here (which is something else to consider before committing to Sexton). Also, it would basically mean moving Okoro to the bench.

Mobley is our PF, and the one season he was healthy, Love hating playing alongside Sexton because Sexton treated him like a $30M decoy. We just inked Allen to a $100M extension. Are we trading him?

If we could wave a wand and bring in defensive floor spacers, and we can't, how do you get them into the starting lineup alongside Sexton?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I bring up LeBron because presumably we've all seen him play and the difference floor spacing has made when we've had it .vs. when we haven't. If you don't get that I guess I just presume too much.

To judge Sexton or Garland when they've rarely played with more than one good 3pt shooter on the floor is just crazy to me.

We need data and no I'm not at all certain were going to get it this season, but if we don't at some point that's not Collin's fault. I project improvement in his game due to his work ethic and the things I've mentioned. So it's not hard to justify $20m in my mind. It would be great if we had lineup data to demonstrate how things might go but we don't and it's not Collin's fault.

I'd almost say we're setup to demonstrably prove whether a decent defense can be built around Sexland, but that may be asking to much from Okoro and Mobley this early in their career. At least Drummond and Nance suggested it was possible last season.

[jbk1234]

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

LBJ is one of the best players at history in terms of seeing the floor, making the right pass, and running an offense. He also understood the value of getting his teammates going and made a concerted effort to do so starting in the first quarter. There's just no comparison in terms of the two players.

Also, where is spacing getting inserted into starting lineup? Garland is the best three point shooter on the roster and playing him next to Sexton is, at best, problematic defensively. If you could trade Garland for a different PG who could shoot as well but also defend the 2, who would that player be?

A three and D SF would be great, but who is trading one of those? They're the most sought after guys in the NBA. We can't even get a poor man's version of one of those players to sign here (which is something else to consider before committing to Sexton). Also, it would basically mean moving Okoro to the bench.

Mobley is our PF, and the one season he was healthy, Love hating playing alongside Sexton because Sexton treated him like a $30M decoy. We just inked Allen to a $100M extension. Are we trading him?

If we could wave a wand and bring in defensive floor spacers, and we can't, how do you get them into the starting lineup alongside Sexton?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I bring up LeBron because presumably we've all seen him play and the difference floor spacing has made when we've had it .vs. when we haven't. If you don't get that I guess I just presume too much.

To judge Sexton or Garland when they've rarely played with more than one good 3pt shooter on the floor is just crazy to me.

We need data and no I'm not at all certain were going to get it this season, but if we don't at some point that's not Collin's fault. I project improvement in his game due to his work ethic and the things I've mentioned. So it's not hard to justify $20m in my mind. It would be great if we had lineup data to demonstrate how things might go but we don't and it's not Collin's fault.

I'd almost say we're setup to demonstrably prove whether a decent defense can be built around Sexland, but that may be asking to much from Okoro and Mobley this early in their career. At least Drummond and Nance suggested it was possible last season.

Drummond was still starting for the first half of the West Coast trip. It was the cratering of the defense that lead to the decision to move him to the bench. The soft spot in our defense is opposing team's three point % and that's an issue at the perimeter. I'm skeptical, to say the least, that's fixable with the Cavs starting Garland, Sexton, and Okoro.

That said, I could live with the Cavs being very clear as to their expectations for Sexton if he wants to get paid next summer (I don't believe for a minute his *areas for improvement* haven't been communicated to him on multiple occasions by coaching staffs in the past). What I can't get on board with is committing big money to him, for a very long time, first and then just hoping for the best. That's not a plan. That's a prayer and one that appears to be the product of an underwhelming trade market.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[Revenged25]

I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement that we need to wait till this season is over to pay Sexton so that they can better evaluate him.

[JonFromVA]

LBJ is one of the best players at history in terms of seeing the floor, making the right pass, and running an offense. He also understood the value of getting his teammates going and made a concerted effort to do so starting in the first quarter. There's just no comparison in terms of the two players.

Also, where is spacing getting inserted into starting lineup? Garland is the best three point shooter on the roster and playing him next to Sexton is, at best, problematic defensively. If you could trade Garland for a different PG who could shoot as well but also defend the 2, who would that player be?

A three and D SF would be great, but who is trading one of those? They're the most sought after guys in the NBA. We can't even get a poor man's version of one of those players to sign here (which is something else to consider before committing to Sexton). Also, it would basically mean moving Okoro to the bench.

Mobley is our PF, and the one season he was healthy, Love hating playing alongside Sexton because Sexton treated him like a $30M decoy. We just inked Allen to a $100M extension. Are we trading him?

If we could wave a wand and bring in defensive floor spacers, and we can't, how do you get them into the starting lineup alongside Sexton?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I bring up LeBron because presumably we've all seen him play and the difference floor spacing has made when we've had it .vs. when we haven't. If you don't get that I guess I just presume too much.

To judge Sexton or Garland when they've rarely played with more than one good 3pt shooter on the floor is just crazy to me.

We need data and no I'm not at all certain were going to get it this season, but if we don't at some point that's not Collin's fault. I project improvement in his game due to his work ethic and the things I've mentioned. So it's not hard to justify $20m in my mind. It would be great if we had lineup data to demonstrate how things might go but we don't and it's not Collin's fault.

I'd almost say we're setup to demonstrably prove whether a decent defense can be built around Sexland, but that may be asking to much from Okoro and Mobley this early in their career. At least Drummond and Nance suggested it was possible last season.

Drummond was still starting for the first half of the West Coast trip. It was the cratering of the defense that lead to the decision to move him to the bench. The soft spot in our defense is opposing team's three point % and that's an issue at the perimeter. I'm skeptical, to say the least, that's fixable with the Cavs starting Garland, Sexton, and Okoro.

That said, I could live with the Cavs being very clear as to their expectations for Sexton if he wants to get paid next summer (I don't believe for a minute his *areas for improvement* haven't been communicated to him on multiple occasions by coaching staffs in the past). What I can't get on board with is committing big money to him, for a very long time, first and then just hoping for the best. That's not a plan. That's a prayer and one that appears to be the product of an underwhelming trade market.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The west coast trip happened after the Allen trade and the Nance injury. Drummond was benched because he stopped trying to play for the team.

But the point is at least we have some data from before then. We could start another thread to analyze game for game if we want. We could in theory even reach a conclusion about why that lineup was working and if it was reproducible.

The data for what Sexton might do with proper floor spacing is non-existent for statistical purposes.

[KuruptedCav]

We were discussing floor spacing, though, something which benefits everyone trying to score the ball. Of course there are defensive trade offs, but that doesn't mean you can't have floor spacing lineups.

So let's not pretend Sexton couldn't score at will if all he had to do was beat his man. Part of that means making the right pass to the shooter left open when the defense helps, and that's also a lot easier when you know whoever they ignore will make them pay.

Sexton's greatest attribute is his scoring and he could be so much better at it with spacing and improving his reads.

Without even a lineup to provide that experience at best we have an incomplete picture of his potential upside.

So yeah... I brought up LeBron. If he was strictly judged by some of the starting lineups we used ... he'd seem to be an empty stats player. The fun started when we had at least 2 deep threats on the floor with him.

The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.

He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I’m not sure where you are getting your stats, but:

Last season Collin played 34 games against the top-8 teams in each conference. In those games he averaged 22.17ppg on 45.1 fg%

Maybe confusing him with Darius Garland who played in 27 games against those opponents, averaged 15ppg and shot 42.7%? And somehow averaged a -9.48 +/- vs them (compared to Collin’s underwhelming -6.37 +/-)…

Splits are all there on BasketballReference…

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

Sexton can't even defend his position let alone provide help at the rim. The next time Sexton decides that getting his teammates going early, or ever, is important, will be the first time. I don't know that Sexton has ever had a 10 assist game. I'm not feeling ganged up on, I'm feeling exasperated.

There are real limitations to the young man's game that simply didn't exist with LBJ, fans are ignoring them because the Cavs don't, presently, have better options at SG, and it will be really difficult to build a successful roster around him as a starter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

The Cavs have every opportunity in the world to value another guard over Mobley and they didn't. They also could have used future 2nds to at minimum add a big pg/combo like Dosumnu or a spacer like Weiskamp at the 2 and 3 but they instead opted for Sexton and Okoro. They also added a veteran pg who is a better playmaker than DG but got rid of a floor spacer

Oh, I think they did and he wasn't on the board at No. 3. That said, Mobley was clearly the best player left on the board and they were right to draft him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Mobley was always the better long term prospect over Green and Cade. The problem is some orgs get desperate and choices based on floor not potential. Green has a solid skill set as a scorer and appears to actually be at least 6'4 which would have been a little bit of an upgrade defensively to DG or Sexton but nothing enough to turn the tables. I think if Green was there they trade down and take Kuminga or Barnes or Suggs and given the way it played out GSW in fact got the 2 prospects that would have made more sense for the Cavs over Green alone without some massive Sexton return which was never ever ever going to happen

[JonFromVA]

I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement that we need to wait till this season is over to pay Sexton so that they can better evaluate him.

I have no problem signing him for a price that would both let us build with him or trade him if necessary. I feel that's around $20M.