2022-23 Regular Season

[toooskies]

You don't know that.

I don't, but the vast majority of free agent deals where a player switches teams for the highest offer over the MLE are overpays to begin with. It is the nature of free agency. The team that values the player as being worth the most money is typically overvaluing that player.

It's nothing particular about Cleveland, although Cleveland being Cleveland doesn't help.

Agents have often used Dan Gilbert to get their player paid, but we were desperate to find ways to improve the team and keep LeBron. Altman hasn't acted desperate and hopefully he can keep that up.

One key to signing free agents, though, is having a clear opening for them. Certainly LeBron isn't going to concern himself that we have Lauri Markkenen under contract. He'd see all the depth we're able to retain as a plus that he won't have to play big minutes, but a lot of free agents would see him as someone in their way. Same for our large group of SG's.

But without some behind the scenes collusion, are we really going to clear out a spot to bid on a free-agent that we might not be able to convince to come here even if we have the minutes and the money?

It's just a lot easier for the Cavs to add talent via trades, and as a bonus we get to see how they fit before we need to make them an offer.

But James is clearly the exception unless Gilbert decides not this time.

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

[jbk1234]

I don't, but the vast majority of free agent deals where a player switches teams for the highest offer over the MLE are overpays to begin with. It is the nature of free agency. The team that values the player as being worth the most money is typically overvaluing that player.

It's nothing particular about Cleveland, although Cleveland being Cleveland doesn't help.

Agents have often used Dan Gilbert to get their player paid, but we were desperate to find ways to improve the team and keep LeBron. Altman hasn't acted desperate and hopefully he can keep that up.

One key to signing free agents, though, is having a clear opening for them. Certainly LeBron isn't going to concern himself that we have Lauri Markkenen under contract. He'd see all the depth we're able to retain as a plus that he won't have to play big minutes, but a lot of free agents would see him as someone in their way. Same for our large group of SG's.

But without some behind the scenes collusion, are we really going to clear out a spot to bid on a free-agent that we might not be able to convince to come here even if we have the minutes and the money?

It's just a lot easier for the Cavs to add talent via trades, and as a bonus we get to see how they fit before we need to make them an offer.

But James is clearly the exception unless Gilbert decides not this time.

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

Or maybe use that cap space in a trade for someone like Hayward, who as an expiring contract, would be much easier risk to manage.

[gflem]

I don't, but the vast majority of free agent deals where a player switches teams for the highest offer over the MLE are overpays to begin with. It is the nature of free agency. The team that values the player as being worth the most money is typically overvaluing that player.

It's nothing particular about Cleveland, although Cleveland being Cleveland doesn't help.

Agents have often used Dan Gilbert to get their player paid, but we were desperate to find ways to improve the team and keep LeBron. Altman hasn't acted desperate and hopefully he can keep that up.

One key to signing free agents, though, is having a clear opening for them. Certainly LeBron isn't going to concern himself that we have Lauri Markkenen under contract. He'd see all the depth we're able to retain as a plus that he won't have to play big minutes, but a lot of free agents would see him as someone in their way. Same for our large group of SG's.

But without some behind the scenes collusion, are we really going to clear out a spot to bid on a free-agent that we might not be able to convince to come here even if we have the minutes and the money?

It's just a lot easier for the Cavs to add talent via trades, and as a bonus we get to see how they fit before we need to make them an offer.

But James is clearly the exception unless Gilbert decides not this time.

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

I would think the plan for LeVert is to move him near the deadline if one of the other SGs takes control of that position, or to let him walk. The only way I think they bring him back is if he is clearly better than all the other choices we currently have or clearly better than someone we potentially trade for at that position. The team made a poor move out of desperation imo, and hopefully they don't double down on that mistake by bringing him back at his current salary or higher. I could be wrong and he could prove to be the clear cut best choice to start at the SG but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

[JujitsuFlip]

I don't, but the vast majority of free agent deals where a player switches teams for the highest offer over the MLE are overpays to begin with. It is the nature of free agency. The team that values the player as being worth the most money is typically overvaluing that player.

It's nothing particular about Cleveland, although Cleveland being Cleveland doesn't help.

Agents have often used Dan Gilbert to get their player paid, but we were desperate to find ways to improve the team and keep LeBron. Altman hasn't acted desperate and hopefully he can keep that up.

One key to signing free agents, though, is having a clear opening for them. Certainly LeBron isn't going to concern himself that we have Lauri Markkenen under contract. He'd see all the depth we're able to retain as a plus that he won't have to play big minutes, but a lot of free agents would see him as someone in their way. Same for our large group of SG's.

But without some behind the scenes collusion, are we really going to clear out a spot to bid on a free-agent that we might not be able to convince to come here even if we have the minutes and the money?

It's just a lot easier for the Cavs to add talent via trades, and as a bonus we get to see how they fit before we need to make them an offer.

But James is clearly the exception unless Gilbert decides not this time.

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

Hard pass, I'd rather throw a massive 1 year deal to a wing like JJ and KCP did in 2017.

[JonFromVA]

Agents have often used Dan Gilbert to get their player paid, but we were desperate to find ways to improve the team and keep LeBron. Altman hasn't acted desperate and hopefully he can keep that up.

One key to signing free agents, though, is having a clear opening for them. Certainly LeBron isn't going to concern himself that we have Lauri Markkenen under contract. He'd see all the depth we're able to retain as a plus that he won't have to play big minutes, but a lot of free agents would see him as someone in their way. Same for our large group of SG's.

But without some behind the scenes collusion, are we really going to clear out a spot to bid on a free-agent that we might not be able to convince to come here even if we have the minutes and the money?

It's just a lot easier for the Cavs to add talent via trades, and as a bonus we get to see how they fit before we need to make them an offer.

But James is clearly the exception unless Gilbert decides not this time.

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

I would think the plan for LeVert is to move him near the deadline if one of the other SGs takes control of that position, or to let him walk. The only way I think they bring him back is if he is clearly better than all the other choices we currently have or clearly better than someone we potentially trade for at that position. The team made a poor move out of desperation imo, and hopefully they don't double down on that mistake by bringing him back at his current salary or higher. I could be wrong and he could prove to be the clear cut best choice to start at the SG but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

[toooskies]

I am sure the backup plan is to bring back LeVert and Love if we don't have a free agent target.

I would think the plan for LeVert is to move him near the deadline if one of the other SGs takes control of that position, or to let him walk. The only way I think they bring him back is if he is clearly better than all the other choices we currently have or clearly better than someone we potentially trade for at that position. The team made a poor move out of desperation imo, and hopefully they don't double down on that mistake by bringing him back at his current salary or higher. I could be wrong and he could prove to be the clear cut best choice to start at the SG but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

[JonFromVA]

I would think the plan for LeVert is to move him near the deadline if one of the other SGs takes control of that position, or to let him walk. The only way I think they bring him back is if he is clearly better than all the other choices we currently have or clearly better than someone we potentially trade for at that position. The team made a poor move out of desperation imo, and hopefully they don't double down on that mistake by bringing him back at his current salary or higher. I could be wrong and he could prove to be the clear cut best choice to start at the SG but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

Which is not necessarily a bad idea because all those player's we'd be dumping/consolidating will want to be paid at some point and of course Mobley's deal is still coming down the line.

Having 3 players on max deals plus Lauri and Jarrett on big deals would be problematic - except the cap is expected to rise with the next TV deal; so there's a window of opportunity and of course we'd presumably forestall the repeater tax another year.

[toooskies]

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

Which is not necessarily a bad idea because all those player's we'd be dumping/consolidating will want to be paid at some point and of course Mobley's deal is still coming down the line.

Having 3 players on max deals plus Lauri and Jarrett on big deals would be problematic - except the cap is expected to rise with the next TV deal; so there's a window of opportunity and of course we'd presumably forestall the repeater tax another year.

Not paying guys because we're afraid of too much salary far in the future is exactly how James Harden got traded from OKC. Let's be afraid of the repeater tax when we're actually in it.

[JonFromVA]

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

Which is not necessarily a bad idea because all those player's we'd be dumping/consolidating will want to be paid at some point and of course Mobley's deal is still coming down the line.

Having 3 players on max deals plus Lauri and Jarrett on big deals would be problematic - except the cap is expected to rise with the next TV deal; so there's a window of opportunity and of course we'd presumably forestall the repeater tax another year.

Not paying guys because we're afraid of too much salary far in the future is exactly how James Harden got traded from OKC. Let's be afraid of the repeater tax when we're actually in it.

Are you suggesting not being willing to pay Collin Sexton what he wants would be a James Harden level mistake?

Short of something like that, I don't see the comparison at all. Heck, the only way the Cavs aren't eventually forced to pick & choose between all the guards on our roster is if most of them stink. So, whether we consolidate sooner or later, it's going to happen.

[toooskies]

Which is not necessarily a bad idea because all those player's we'd be dumping/consolidating will want to be paid at some point and of course Mobley's deal is still coming down the line.

Having 3 players on max deals plus Lauri and Jarrett on big deals would be problematic - except the cap is expected to rise with the next TV deal; so there's a window of opportunity and of course we'd presumably forestall the repeater tax another year.

Not paying guys because we're afraid of too much salary far in the future is exactly how James Harden got traded from OKC. Let's be afraid of the repeater tax when we're actually in it.

Are you suggesting not being willing to pay Collin Sexton what he wants would be a James Harden level mistake?

Short of something like that, I don't see the comparison at all. Heck, the only way the Cavs aren't eventually forced to pick & choose between all the guards on our roster is if most of them stink. So, whether we consolidate sooner or later, it's going to happen.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that being worried by what the cap looks like in five years should not be a consideration. Harden being the most noteworthy example of a team being afraid of giving out contracts due to future tax bills that go away once a new TV deal kicks in. OKC could've paid for Harden and stayed under the tax thanks to a new TV deal that came shortly after he was traded.

Garland's extension won't look nearly as big post-bump, nor will a 2023 max contract. (They'll still be big, but manageable.) And you need to take that into consideration when trying to avoid "3 players on max deals". Because a rookie contract max that was signed pre-bump will look a lot more tolerable post-bump, especially if Garland doesn't make all-NBA next year. Lauri and Jarrett's deals will age incredibly well.

A really smart team would try to recreate what Golden State did with the cap bump that allowed them to sign Kevin Durant, which would involve freeing up space in 2025 or 2026. But unfortunately if you aren't THE destination, you end up overpaying guys like Dellavedova and Mozgov.

[JonFromVA]

Not paying guys because we're afraid of too much salary far in the future is exactly how James Harden got traded from OKC. Let's be afraid of the repeater tax when we're actually in it.

Are you suggesting not being willing to pay Collin Sexton what he wants would be a James Harden level mistake?

Short of something like that, I don't see the comparison at all. Heck, the only way the Cavs aren't eventually forced to pick & choose between all the guards on our roster is if most of them stink. So, whether we consolidate sooner or later, it's going to happen.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that being worried by what the cap looks like in five years should not be a consideration. Harden being the most noteworthy example of a team being afraid of giving out contracts due to future tax bills that go away once a new TV deal kicks in. OKC could've paid for Harden and stayed under the tax thanks to a new TV deal that came shortly after he was traded.

Garland's extension won't look nearly as big post-bump, nor will a 2023 max contract. (They'll still be big, but manageable.) And you need to take that into consideration when trying to avoid "3 players on max deals". Because a rookie contract max that was signed pre-bump will look a lot more tolerable post-bump, especially if Garland doesn't make all-NBA next year. Lauri and Jarrett's deals will age incredibly well.

A really smart team would try to recreate what Golden State did with the cap bump that allowed them to sign Kevin Durant, which would involve freeing up space in 2025 or 2026. But unfortunately if you aren't THE destination, you end up overpaying guys like Dellavedova and Mozgov.

There's a big difference between going over the cap (OKC) and trying to stave off getting wrecked by the repeater tax - something even the Warriors with all their money are flinching at.

I trust Altman and gang to work through all the possibilities involving a potential cap spike or smoothed increase. I also trust they will spend money strategically to gain an advantage wherever possible ... and since we don't yet have a championship contender, that might mean avoiding tying up money in players that haven't proven to be essential. And if we don't have a Harden-like non-core player on the roster, well, they can't make a Harden-like mistake.

[KuruptedCav]

Not paying guys because we're afraid of too much salary far in the future is exactly how James Harden got traded from OKC. Let's be afraid of the repeater tax when we're actually in it.

Are you suggesting not being willing to pay Collin Sexton what he wants would be a James Harden level mistake?

Short of something like that, I don't see the comparison at all. Heck, the only way the Cavs aren't eventually forced to pick & choose between all the guards on our roster is if most of them stink. So, whether we consolidate sooner or later, it's going to happen.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that being worried by what the cap looks like in five years should not be a consideration. Harden being the most noteworthy example of a team being afraid of giving out contracts due to future tax bills that go away once a new TV deal kicks in. OKC could've paid for Harden and stayed under the tax thanks to a new TV deal that came shortly after he was traded.

Garland's extension won't look nearly as big post-bump, nor will a 2023 max contract. (They'll still be big, but manageable.) And you need to take that into consideration when trying to avoid "3 players on max deals". Because a rookie contract max that was signed pre-bump will look a lot more tolerable post-bump, especially if Garland doesn't make all-NBA next year. Lauri and Jarrett's deals will age incredibly well.

A really smart team would try to recreate what Golden State did with the cap bump that allowed them to sign Kevin Durant, which would involve freeing up space in 2025 or 2026. But unfortunately if you aren't THE destination, you end up overpaying guys like Dellavedova and Mozgov.

I don’t worry about the 25% max much because the gap between it and the luxury tax has grown, as has the gap between it and the MLE and minimum salaries. You can have 3x of them and still be $50-$60 million under the luxury tax. They get expensive quick at 30% and 35%; but if they earn that before their 3rd contract, you should be happy to pay it.

Now, I’d still attempt to avoid an actual max because a spiking cap will out-pace standard raises; and I’d avoid trading for a 35% max player because with rare exception (Steph, Lebron, etc.) they just aren’t worth it. Like Dame’s contract or Beal’s contract are silly to me.

But $15 million is fine for a non-star role player isn’t going to destroy your franchise. But there is a difference between Spencer Dinwiddie, Tristan Thompson and… and Davis Bertans.


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[JujitsuFlip]

I would think the plan for LeVert is to move him near the deadline if one of the other SGs takes control of that position, or to let him walk. The only way I think they bring him back is if he is clearly better than all the other choices we currently have or clearly better than someone we potentially trade for at that position. The team made a poor move out of desperation imo, and hopefully they don't double down on that mistake by bringing him back at his current salary or higher. I could be wrong and he could prove to be the clear cut best choice to start at the SG but I wouldn't bet on that happening.

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

I don't think Love, Sexton, LeVert, and Wade constitutes half the roster.

[KuruptedCav]

Unless we can do something this season to curb injuries (or just have a lot more luck), we're going to need all the depth we can muster - and I'm not closing my book on LeVert before he's even had the chance to go through a training camp with the team.

That the Cavs would hold on to cap space and just use it to re-sign existing players would be pretty disappointing, but it certainly is a possibility if the right player isn't available. Gilbert's goal is to leverage money to help achieve success or to add assets, not throw it away.

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

I don't think Love, Sexton, LeVert, and Wade constitutes half the roster.

Love, Sexton, LaVine, Levert, Osman, Windler, Neto, Lopez, Wade, Stevens, and Okoro better step up for that $9 million TO picked up!


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[JujitsuFlip]

We won't be leveraging Gilbert's money anytime soon if we give up half our roster for cap space in 2023.

I don't think Love, Sexton, LeVert, and Wade constitutes half the roster.

Love, Sexton, Levert, Osman, Windler, Neto, Lopez, Wade, Stevens, and Okoro better step up for that $9 million TO picked up!


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1. Sexton may not even play this season with the Cavs.
2. I'd be surprised if LeVert is on the roster past the trade deadline.
3. If LBJ comes back, it would make sense to retain Love and Cedi (he has a guarantee for summer of '23) on lower cap figure deals than their current ones.
3. Windler is restricted and Stevens + Okoro have a club options.
4. Neto and Lopez are on vet min deals they can comeback for a 20% raise or be replaced, no biggie.
5. Wade would return for peanuts, if the Cavs wanted.

[toooskies]

The assumption that every player next offseason will do the team-friendly thing and take a paycut while they clear out space to sign a billionaire to every last dollar is unrealistic.

[KuruptedCav]

I don't think Love, Sexton, LeVert, and Wade constitutes half the roster.

Love, Sexton, Levert, Osman, Windler, Neto, Lopez, Wade, Stevens, and Okoro better step up for that $9 million TO picked up!


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1. Sexton may not even play this season with the Cavs.
2. I'd be surprised if LeVert is on the roster past the trade deadline.
3. If LBJ comes back, it would make sense to retain Love and Cedi (he has a guarantee for summer of '23) on lower cap figure deals than their current ones.
3. Windler is restricted and Stevens + Okoro have a club options.
4. Neto and Lopez are on vet min deals they can comeback for a 20% raise or be replaced, no biggie.
5. Wade would return for peanuts, if the Cavs wanted.

Just saying that it’s more than half the roster…


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[JonFromVA]

The assumption that every player next offseason will do the team-friendly thing and take a paycut while they clear out space to sign a billionaire to every last dollar is unrealistic.

The last time said billionaire had the option to accept less money in order to keep/sign some key players that the team couldn't just simply go over the cap to pay ... he actually did.

[JujitsuFlip]

Love, Sexton, Levert, Osman, Windler, Neto, Lopez, Wade, Stevens, and Okoro better step up for that $9 million TO picked up!


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1. Sexton may not even play this season with the Cavs.
2. I'd be surprised if LeVert is on the roster past the trade deadline.
3. If LBJ comes back, it would make sense to retain Love and Cedi (he has a guarantee for summer of '23) on lower cap figure deals than their current ones.
3. Windler is restricted and Stevens + Okoro have a club options.
4. Neto and Lopez are on vet min deals they can comeback for a 20% raise or be replaced, no biggie.
5. Wade would return for peanuts, if the Cavs wanted.

Just saying that it’s more than half the roster…


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Its not though, the only guys who are free to walk if we fast forward to summer of 2023 are Love, Wade, LeVert, Lopez, Neto and maybe Sexton (if he plays on the QO)... That's currently 6 guys of 16, 37.5%.

[JujitsuFlip]

The assumption that every player next offseason will do the team-friendly thing and take a paycut while they clear out space to sign a billionaire to every last dollar is unrealistic.

Most the roster is already accounted for.

Garland/Rubio
OA/Okoro
LBJ/Cedi/Stevens
Mobley/Markkanen
Allen/Brobley