Trade Ideas

[jbk1234]

I just don't see the appeal of LeVert. Is the hope that his efficiency will go up in Cleveland?

LeVert has been in the league a long time and simply is not an efficient player. This seems so very much to me like the Browns trading back into the first round to draft a QB with a third round grade because they really need a QB. As if the transitory properties of drafting confer upon the guy 1st round skills because that's where you took him.

[toooskies]

The thought of paying Smart into his 30s gives me Eric Snow flashbacks...

Smart is like a more refined version of Stevens with zero upside and far more headache. Does he really do anything at a vastly better rate that you cant get out of Okoro/Cedi/Stevens that warrents giving him 20-25min per game?

I would trade a 2nd rounder for him as a wildcard flier if the Celtics are looking to get assets. No way does Smart trade actually deserve a young rotation player.

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

[JonFromVA]

I just don't see the appeal of LeVert. Is the hope that his efficiency will go up in Cleveland?

The efficiency has been fine the past few months from him. He may just have needed time to recover from his surgeries and he's finally resembling the player he can be.

Note that Rubio was nothing close to efficient, so I'm less worried about efficiency than I am about defense and intangibles and facilitating. Garland and Allen and Mobley are efficient enough that we just need to get them the ball with an opportunity to score.

I have to be honest, if we're going to take up that kind of roster space on a non-needle-mover for two years, it should probably Eric Gordon who can actually space the floor some and not LeVert. There's no just space in the paint when we play anymore.

Gordon is certainly a possibility (again, depending on cost), but his age is an issue, and you do have to assume he will actually try to do things other than shoot/score on a different team. We'd also have to hope that Gordon continues to shoot well. 46% on 3pters this year, but 33% last. Both LeVert and Gordon have lousy luck with injuries.

[jbk1234]

The thought of paying Smart into his 30s gives me Eric Snow flashbacks...

Smart is like a more refined version of Stevens with zero upside and far more headache. Does he really do anything at a vastly better rate that you cant get out of Okoro/Cedi/Stevens that warrents giving him 20-25min per game?

I would trade a 2nd rounder for him as a wildcard flier if the Celtics are looking to get assets. No way does Smart trade actually deserve a young rotation player.

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

[KuruptedCav]

If the Celtics will take back Cedi, you could add J. Rich and Gordon which I'm coming around to as the best move. I mean LeVert's career efficiency and 3p% numbers aren't good. It's not just this season.

I’d do JRich and Gordon in a minute. Assuming the cost out are something like Cedi, Rubio, 2022 FRP and 2022 HOU SRP.

I don’t want to trade picks beyond 2022 or take on salary beyond 2023 because Mobley’s development dictates need/fit. Staying under the tax would be good too for long-term flex.

[JonFromVA]

The efficiency has been fine the past few months from him. He may just have needed time to recover from his surgeries and he's finally resembling the player he can be.

Note that Rubio was nothing close to efficient, so I'm less worried about efficiency than I am about defense and intangibles and facilitating. Garland and Allen and Mobley are efficient enough that we just need to get them the ball with an opportunity to score.

I have to be honest, if we're going to take up that kind of roster space on a non-needle-mover for two years, it should probably Eric Gordon who can actually space the floor some and not LeVert. There's no just space in the paint when we play anymore.

It's going to be crowded inside as long as we play two bigs who can't shoot outside. There's no getting around that.

Every player we can pull out of the paint is one less player that can help on a drive and in our bread & butter play Allen is going to be involved in the P&R action. If his man helps, Garland throws the lob and we get a dunk.

So, if Mobley was our only concern? There are worse things than letting him shoot some wide open 3's and/or learn to make some decisions from the perimeter.

[toooskies]

Smart is like a more refined version of Stevens with zero upside and far more headache. Does he really do anything at a vastly better rate that you cant get out of Okoro/Cedi/Stevens that warrents giving him 20-25min per game?

I would trade a 2nd rounder for him as a wildcard flier if the Celtics are looking to get assets. No way does Smart trade actually deserve a young rotation player.

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Every player is a flawed player except maybe Kevin Durant (but he's injury-prone).

[jbk1234]

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Every player is a flawed player except maybe Kevin Durant (but he's injury-prone).

Right, but their specific flaws should impact whether you want to trade for them, and if so, what you want to surrender in the process. In this case, Smart's extension was a mistake the Celtics made that I wouldn't want to inherit from them.

[LivingLegend]

I just don't see the appeal of LeVert. Is the hope that his efficiency will go up in Cleveland?

Sure, you always hope your team is a better fit than a player's previous team(s); but primarily I think the goal is for him to help keep defenses honest and to provide someone else who can create his own or someone else's shot besides DG as well as soak up the backup PG minutes if Rondo can't get his hammy right.

I mean Ricky was a big help to Darius, even though his efficiency kept falling and failing since his hot start. Heck, in December Ricky put up his highest +/- inspite of his lowest 3p%/ts%/etc. Which is not to compare the two players, but Rubio is off the table this season.

LeVert also improves our rotational depth as long as we don't have to give any of it up to get him and by all reports he's a high character guy that should be an easy fit.

All depends how low the prices goes ...

Precisely, its about finding a wing player that can keep the defense honest and not over rotate to Garland. You need to keep Garland freed up to create his shots and facilitate for others. Thats what Rubio did to an extent. Defenses can sag on Okoro, they cant sag on Levert.

Not Levert only, but anybody in that Barnes, Gordon, Hield, Levert range of player can demand enough of the defenses attention to benefit Garland.

[LivingLegend]

Smart is like a more refined version of Stevens with zero upside and far more headache. Does he really do anything at a vastly better rate that you cant get out of Okoro/Cedi/Stevens that warrents giving him 20-25min per game?

I would trade a 2nd rounder for him as a wildcard flier if the Celtics are looking to get assets. No way does Smart trade actually deserve a young rotation player.

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Ill just put it this way....a lot of teams are making some of these guy available for a trade (like Smart) for a reason. Its not because they are some great core piece to the team in most instances.

However, I will go to the grave saying that Hield is a guy who still has another level left in his game. He hasnt been fully unlocked yet and he is a guy who I think if the Cavs went after, would blossom on a actual good basketball team with a defensive minded HC.

If Jerami Grant can blossom into a great 2-way 3/D type of player in year 9...so can Buddy Heild. Im putting my eggs in the Buddy basket if Im the Cavs and potentially strike gold and at the very worst a great complimentary shooter to Garland.

[jbk1234]

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Ill just put it this way....a lot of teams are making some of these guy available for a trade (like Smart) for a reason. Its not because they are some great core piece to the team in most instances.

However, I will go to the grave saying that Hield is a guy who still has another level left in his game. He hasnt been fully unlocked yet and he is a guy who I think if the Cavs went after, would blossom on a actual good basketball team with a defensive minded HC.

If Jerami Grant can blossom into a great 2-way 3/D type of player in year 9...so can Buddy Heild. Im putting my eggs in the Buddy basket if Im the Cavs and potentially strike gold and at the very worst a great complimentary shooter to Garland.

I think Buddy's defense is what it is and that he's a little expensive for a one-way player. Still that skill is pretty valuable and I could talk myself into it. It's just not happening until the other shoe drops with Simmons. They're all-in on the guy.

[LivingLegend]

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Ill just put it this way....a lot of teams are making some of these guy available for a trade (like Smart) for a reason. Its not because they are some great core piece to the team in most instances.

However, I will go to the grave saying that Hield is a guy who still has another level left in his game. He hasnt been fully unlocked yet and he is a guy who I think if the Cavs went after, would blossom on a actual good basketball team with a defensive minded HC.

If Jerami Grant can blossom into a great 2-way 3/D type of player in year 9...so can Buddy Heild. Im putting my eggs in the Buddy basket if Im the Cavs and potentially strike gold and at the very worst a great complimentary shooter to Garland.

I think Buddy's defense is what it is and that he's a little expensive for a one-way player. Still that skill is pretty valuable and I could talk myself into it. It's just not happening until the other shoe drops with Simmons. They're all-in on the guy.

True true, but it works in theory. I just look at what Lauri has done with the Cavs on the defensive end (and even a motivated Love) and say why couldnt Hield come to the Cavs and improve on the defensive at least into Cedi Osman level defender. With mid-season moves, there is always going to be a risk factor with certain players. If getting a bit more out of Hield on the defensive end is the biggest risk the Cavs would face in a trade, then thats a lot better than some of the alternatives with other players floated around.

It even works financially with something like this

Rubio (cap relief) + Windler (young piece to replace Hield) + 1st RP (asset for their rebuild) for Hield (even though I hate the idea of trading Rubio)

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9nq39jd

[toooskies]

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Every player is a flawed player except maybe Kevin Durant (but he's injury-prone).

Right, but their specific flaws should impact whether you want to trade for them, and if so, what you want to surrender in the process. In this case, Smart's extension was a mistake the Celtics made that I wouldn't want to inherit from them.

My point is that your logic leads to never making a move. If he hadn't signed the extension, you'd avoid him because you couldn't count on him re-signing.

Counting on leaving ourselves cap space to sign a free agent is a brilliant tactic until you realize that the right difference-maker for your team doesn't hit free agency at the right time, or just decides to sign somewhere else for better money/years/weather. You insist on saving space for 2022-2023 but everybody is going to space. As promising as Garland/Mobley/Allen are, we won't be a destination for anyone besides the ring chasers that will settle for TPMLE or vet minimum deals anyway. You have to draft or trade for the right guys.

Our financial flexibility is right now, when we have a medium-sized but nearly worthless expiring contract to trade that we can fill with slightly overpaid but available talent. Letting it expire is a worst-case scenario if we're willing to go into the tax next year.

I like Smart the more I look at it and think he'd be a good fit, particularly if we're trying to leave room for Garland/Mobley/Allen/Okoro(/Sexton) to grow and develop offensively as you've advocated for in the past. There isn't another Ricky Rubio out there. But there might be a pretty good defender with intangibles who can play on or off ball.

[jbk1234]

Ill just put it this way....a lot of teams are making some of these guy available for a trade (like Smart) for a reason. Its not because they are some great core piece to the team in most instances.

However, I will go to the grave saying that Hield is a guy who still has another level left in his game. He hasnt been fully unlocked yet and he is a guy who I think if the Cavs went after, would blossom on a actual good basketball team with a defensive minded HC.

If Jerami Grant can blossom into a great 2-way 3/D type of player in year 9...so can Buddy Heild. Im putting my eggs in the Buddy basket if Im the Cavs and potentially strike gold and at the very worst a great complimentary shooter to Garland.

I think Buddy's defense is what it is and that he's a little expensive for a one-way player. Still that skill is pretty valuable and I could talk myself into it. It's just not happening until the other shoe drops with Simmons. They're all-in on the guy.

True true, but it works in theory. I just look at what Lauri has done with the Cavs on the defensive end (and even a motivated Love) and say why couldnt Hield come to the Cavs and improve on the defensive at least into Cedi Osman level defender. With mid-season moves, there is always going to be a risk factor with certain players. If getting a bit more out of Hield on the defensive end is the biggest risk the Cavs would face in a trade, then thats a lot better than some of the alternatives with other players floated around.

It even works financially with something like this

Rubio + Windler + 1st RP for Hield (even though I hate the idea of trading Rubio)

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9nq39jd

I don't see another team even offering the Kings cap space for Hield, if we're putting a 1st and Rubio on the table, that better be Pangos instead of Windler.

[JonFromVA]

For one, Smart can be your team's lead ballhandler (at least in small doses), which none of those guys can do. For two, Smart is the only one of those guys to post a positive on/off (well, Okoro is at +0.1 right now). So I'd say the sum of what he does is consistently better than Okoro/Cedi/Stevens.

If Rubio had been subbing in for Smart, instead of Okoro all season, I suspect that Smart's +/- numbers would be a straight dumpster fire. Smart can barely be the lead ball handler for the Celtics, who have both Brown and Tatum as secondary ball handlers, during the regular season. Try to imagine what Smart as the lead ball handler with crappy secondary ball handlers looks like when he's getting blitzed in the playoffs. You'd probably have to play him with Rondo which would be like a WOAT spacing lineup. The Cavs have zero reason to trade for him on that extension. It's a really bad idea.

The wrong trade could really derail what looks to be a very promising team. The Cavs shouldn't be talking themselves into giving up real value for flawed players, and they really, really shouldn't be doing that if trading for the player is going to result in them being stuck with a four-year contract on top of it.

Ill just put it this way....a lot of teams are making some of these guy available for a trade (like Smart) for a reason. Its not because they are some great core piece to the team in most instances.

However, I will go to the grave saying that Hield is a guy who still has another level left in his game. He hasnt been fully unlocked yet and he is a guy who I think if the Cavs went after, would blossom on a actual good basketball team with a defensive minded HC.

If Jerami Grant can blossom into a great 2-way 3/D type of player in year 9...so can Buddy Heild. Im putting my eggs in the Buddy basket if Im the Cavs and potentially strike gold and at the very worst a great complimentary shooter to Garland.

Well, if that other level is being able to create with the ball in his hands when Garland is doubled or locked down, he might just work. There's nothing wrong with flawed players, if their strengths are something you need, their flaws are something you can cope with and you have an owner willing to pay ...

I mean, we all know this ... we won a championship with JR Smith as our starting SG, Tristan Thompson as our starting C, and Kevin Love as our PF, after all.

[jbk1234]

Every player is a flawed player except maybe Kevin Durant (but he's injury-prone).

Right, but their specific flaws should impact whether you want to trade for them, and if so, what you want to surrender in the process. In this case, Smart's extension was a mistake the Celtics made that I wouldn't want to inherit from them.

My point is that your logic leads to never making a move. If he hadn't signed the extension, you'd avoid him because you couldn't count on him re-signing.

Counting on leaving ourselves cap space to sign a free agent is a brilliant tactic until you realize that the right difference-maker for your team doesn't hit free agency at the right time, or just decides to sign somewhere else for better money/years/weather. You insist on saving space for 2022-2023 but everybody is going to space. As promising as Garland/Mobley/Allen are, we won't be a destination for anyone besides the ring chasers that will settle for TPMLE or vet minimum deals anyway. You have to draft or trade for the right guys.

Our financial flexibility is right now, when we have a medium-sized but nearly worthless expiring contract to trade that we can fill with slightly overpaid but available talent. Letting it expire is a worst-case scenario if we're willing to go into the tax next year.

I like Smart the more I look at it and think he'd be a good fit, particularly if we're trying to leave room for Garland/Mobley/Allen/Okoro(/Sexton) to grow and develop offensively as you've advocated for in the past. There isn't another Ricky Rubio out there. But there might be a pretty good defender with intangibles who can play on or off ball.

I mean you're advocating trading for a guy who doesn't fit, can't shoot, can barely run an offense, and is considered to be on a negative value contract, not just by me, but by Danny Ainge as well based on the reporting surrounding Jazz/Celtics talks. Again, Altman's primary obligation is not to derail a promising rebuild because he felt pressure to make a trade just for the sake of making a trade.

[mcfly1204]

Some of these names being thrown around make me want to throw up. Smart, LeVert, Hield, just no.

[Andrew McCeltic]

You're all taking the "Real"GM thing way too seriously, like I'm trying to rip you off personally. There's no sales pitch. I put Smart's contract and age in context.

Well now you have the board mod taking this exchange more seriously than he wanted. I think this conversation has run its course.

I was not the problem here.

[jbk1234]

Some of these names being thrown around make me want to throw up. Smart, LeVert, Hield, just no.

I could live with Buddy. I would hardly be excited, but good three point shooters are hard to come by and the way he'd open up the floor, especially next to a guy like Rondo could pay dividends.

[jbk1234]

You're all taking the "Real"GM thing way too seriously, like I'm trying to rip you off personally. There's no sales pitch. I put Smart's contract and age in context.

Well now you have the board mod taking this exchange more seriously than he wanted. I think this conversation has run its course.

I was not the problem here.

This is not the T&T forum. It's the Cavs forum. I want you to think about what would happen on the Celtics forum if a fan from another team showed up, proposed a trade, was told no repeatedly, and proceeded to argue ad nauseum about how all the Celtics fans were wrong. How long would that poster continue to be allowed to post on the Celtics forum?