2024-25 Regular Season

[toooskies]

Cavs are all in on that idea. They are gambling on Kenny and his staff being able to unlock Mobley, make Allen more than a dunk man, create synergy between Garland and Mitchell, give playing time to TJ, CPJ, Merrill, Tyson, Bates, and any other young prospect.

It is a very bold idea and i wanted jb gone probably more than anyone here but I'm not of the mindset he was the sole issue with the Cavs the past 3 seasons.

Atkinson isn't a magician. TJ, CPJ, Merrill, and especially Bates, have serious limitations. TJ and CPJ are 3rd string PGs, or at best, flawed backups. I'm not convinced Bates is an NBA player.

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

I'm not sure as much that they think JBB was the sole issue as much as they're proceeding by changing as little as possible to isolate how much of our issues were related to coaching.

One thing to watch this season is the agents for Mobley and Allen. Either agent may convince their player that they shouldn't sign an extension while the other guy is on the roster, similar to how Klutch wants to split Garland and Mitchell. Mobley's agent may say that he's unlikely to get the 30% bump as long as Allen is at C and taking partial credit for the team defense. Allen's agent may take his all-star surge while Mobley was out and say that they're better off on a different team than Mobley.

[jbk1234]

Cavs are all in on that idea. They are gambling on Kenny and his staff being able to unlock Mobley, make Allen more than a dunk man, create synergy between Garland and Mitchell, give playing time to TJ, CPJ, Merrill, Tyson, Bates, and any other young prospect.

It is a very bold idea and i wanted jb gone probably more than anyone here but I'm not of the mindset he was the sole issue with the Cavs the past 3 seasons.

Atkinson isn't a magician. TJ, CPJ, Merrill, and especially Bates, have serious limitations. TJ and CPJ are 3rd string PGs, or at best, flawed backups. I'm not convinced Bates is an NBA player.

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

[JonFromVA]

Atkinson isn't a magician. TJ, CPJ, Merrill, and especially Bates, have serious limitations. TJ and CPJ are 3rd string PGs, or at best, flawed backups. I'm not convinced Bates is an NBA player.

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

Yep, some fans just want change no matter what as long as we end up with a player at SF with a slightly longer wingspan or something. It's a shame we didn't make the coaching change last year, but it is what it is. We've sucked all the value out of our players and unless something perfect comes our way (like the Lauri or Strus S&T) we need to rebuild value in our players and then decide what we need to do. We traded our first round picks for Don, so, no we can't just snap our fingers and send 2 protected picks away for Dorian Finney Smith and hope he's actually significantly better than Deaner, Isaac, Strus, etc.

We may have wasted a year, with little to show for it except that CPJ and Sam may be useful. Nothing any of us can do about it.

[jbk1234]

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

Yep, some fans just want change no matter what as long as we end up with a player at SF with a slightly longer wingspan or something. It's a shame we didn't make the coaching change last year, but it is what it is. We've sucked all the value out of our players and unless something perfect comes our way (like the Lauri or Strus S&T) we need to rebuild value in our players and then decide what we need to do. We traded our first round picks for Don, so, no we can't just snap our fingers and send 2 protected picks away for Dorian Finney Smith and hope he's actually significantly better than Deaner, Isaac, Strus, etc.

We may have wasted a year, with little to show for it except that CPJ and Sam may be useful. Nothing any of us can do about it.

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

[JonFromVA]

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

Yep, some fans just want change no matter what as long as we end up with a player at SF with a slightly longer wingspan or something. It's a shame we didn't make the coaching change last year, but it is what it is. We've sucked all the value out of our players and unless something perfect comes our way (like the Lauri or Strus S&T) we need to rebuild value in our players and then decide what we need to do. We traded our first round picks for Don, so, no we can't just snap our fingers and send 2 protected picks away for Dorian Finney Smith and hope he's actually significantly better than Deaner, Isaac, Strus, etc.

We may have wasted a year, with little to show for it except that CPJ and Sam may be useful. Nothing any of us can do about it.

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

[jbk1234]

Yep, some fans just want change no matter what as long as we end up with a player at SF with a slightly longer wingspan or something. It's a shame we didn't make the coaching change last year, but it is what it is. We've sucked all the value out of our players and unless something perfect comes our way (like the Lauri or Strus S&T) we need to rebuild value in our players and then decide what we need to do. We traded our first round picks for Don, so, no we can't just snap our fingers and send 2 protected picks away for Dorian Finney Smith and hope he's actually significantly better than Deaner, Isaac, Strus, etc.

We may have wasted a year, with little to show for it except that CPJ and Sam may be useful. Nothing any of us can do about it.

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

[toooskies]

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

I haven't watched Sexton since he left but statistically he clearly made significant improvements in Utah in most aspects of his game including efficiency (star-level for a guard), passing (only 0.5 assists per 36 less than Garland last year), and impact (positive across the board including +2.2 EPM).

Okoro had severe issues with simply not getting touches on offense. Whether that was his problem or a coaching choice is not something we can know, but either way a new coach probably gets him more involved regardless of where he plays next year (unless it's Detroit). It won't be as much about building offense around him as much as it is building him into the offense at all. That said, you can't say you'll know the results until it happens.

You can make a case right now that JBB was either good or bad at development. He at least got consistent effort and production on the defensive end of the floor. I think that he coached players into good fundamental choices-- making the "right play"-- while not giving enough freedom to players to excel when there isn't a "right play" available.

[jbk1234]

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

I haven't watched Sexton since he left but statistically he clearly made significant improvements in Utah in most aspects of his game including efficiency (star-level for a guard), passing (only 0.5 assists per 36 less than Garland last year), and impact (positive across the board including +2.2 EPM).

Okoro had severe issues with simply not getting touches on offense. Whether that was his problem or a coaching choice is not something we can know, but either way a new coach probably gets him more involved regardless of where he plays next year (unless it's Detroit). It won't be as much about building offense around him as much as it is building him into the offense at all. That said, you can't say you'll know the results until it happens.

You can make a case right now that JBB was either good or bad at development. He at least got consistent effort and production on the defensive end of the floor. I think that he coached players into good fundamental choices-- making the "right play"-- while not giving enough freedom to players to excel when there isn't a "right play" available.

While Sexton's on/off broke into the positive last season, his +/- was still -3.0. The Jazz were still a 30-win team with him as a starter. Honestly, his on/off is likely a function of a rookie PG or a washed Clarkson as the other options. If he ever plays in a starting line up without a stretch 4 as reliable as Love or Lauri, I expect

As far as Okoro, the right play, and freedom to excel, I guess I would want to know what that looks like in terms of winning basketball. After 4 full years in the NBA, Okoro is still very limited on the offensive side of the ball. That includes 3 off seasons in which he could work on any skill set he wanted. There's no reason he couldn't do the things Strus does off ball.

[toooskies]

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

I haven't watched Sexton since he left but statistically he clearly made significant improvements in Utah in most aspects of his game including efficiency (star-level for a guard), passing (only 0.5 assists per 36 less than Garland last year), and impact (positive across the board including +2.2 EPM).

Okoro had severe issues with simply not getting touches on offense. Whether that was his problem or a coaching choice is not something we can know, but either way a new coach probably gets him more involved regardless of where he plays next year (unless it's Detroit). It won't be as much about building offense around him as much as it is building him into the offense at all. That said, you can't say you'll know the results until it happens.

You can make a case right now that JBB was either good or bad at development. He at least got consistent effort and production on the defensive end of the floor. I think that he coached players into good fundamental choices-- making the "right play"-- while not giving enough freedom to players to excel when there isn't a "right play" available.

While Sexton's on/off broke into the positive last season, his +/- was still -3.0. The Jazz were still a 30-win team with him as a starter. Honestly, his on/off is likely a function of a rookie PG or a washed Clarkson as the other options. If he ever plays in a starting line up without a stretch 4 as reliable as Love or Lauri, I expect

As far as Okoro, the right play, and freedom to excel, I guess I would want to know what that looks like in terms of winning basketball. After 4 full years in the NBA, Okoro is still very limited on the offensive side of the ball. That includes 3 off seasons in which he could work on any skill set he wanted. There's no reason he couldn't do the things Strus does off ball.

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

[jbk1234]

I haven't watched Sexton since he left but statistically he clearly made significant improvements in Utah in most aspects of his game including efficiency (star-level for a guard), passing (only 0.5 assists per 36 less than Garland last year), and impact (positive across the board including +2.2 EPM).

Okoro had severe issues with simply not getting touches on offense. Whether that was his problem or a coaching choice is not something we can know, but either way a new coach probably gets him more involved regardless of where he plays next year (unless it's Detroit). It won't be as much about building offense around him as much as it is building him into the offense at all. That said, you can't say you'll know the results until it happens.

You can make a case right now that JBB was either good or bad at development. He at least got consistent effort and production on the defensive end of the floor. I think that he coached players into good fundamental choices-- making the "right play"-- while not giving enough freedom to players to excel when there isn't a "right play" available.

While Sexton's on/off broke into the positive last season, his +/- was still -3.0. The Jazz were still a 30-win team with him as a starter. Honestly, his on/off is likely a function of a rookie PG or a washed Clarkson as the other options. If he ever plays in a starting line up without a stretch 4 as reliable as Love or Lauri, I expect

As far as Okoro, the right play, and freedom to excel, I guess I would want to know what that looks like in terms of winning basketball. After 4 full years in the NBA, Okoro is still very limited on the offensive side of the ball. That includes 3 off seasons in which he could work on any skill set he wanted. There's no reason he couldn't do the things Strus does off ball.

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

[toooskies]

While Sexton's on/off broke into the positive last season, his +/- was still -3.0. The Jazz were still a 30-win team with him as a starter. Honestly, his on/off is likely a function of a rookie PG or a washed Clarkson as the other options. If he ever plays in a starting line up without a stretch 4 as reliable as Love or Lauri, I expect

As far as Okoro, the right play, and freedom to excel, I guess I would want to know what that looks like in terms of winning basketball. After 4 full years in the NBA, Okoro is still very limited on the offensive side of the ball. That includes 3 off seasons in which he could work on any skill set he wanted. There's no reason he couldn't do the things Strus does off ball.

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

And how much of that is coaching?

[jbk1234]

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

And how much of that is coaching?

This is when I get back to the NBA being a professional league and Okoro having three offseasons to shore up those aspects of his game that would allow the coaching staff to expand his role without effectively point shaving. There's also something to be said for the possibility that his confidence issues are justified. Maybe he's only comfortable playing a limited role on offense because he has tried to expand his game, in practice, in the offseason, and it hasn't gone well.

[JujitsuFlip]

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

Did you watch Kenny's presser? That's all he talked about was development and how young the team was.

Who are Kenny and his staff going to develop you ask? Literally everyone.

Kenny is going to try to unlock Mobley this season. If he can or not is a different story. Do i think he should play the Draymond role, no, not really but hey I'm not the one tasked with making Mobley what he is "supposed to be".

Kenny is going to try to develop synergy between Garland and Mitchell, Kenny really likes Garland's game and believes he has another level.

Just bc Kenny wants to use 10 and 11 guys per night does not mean he's only trying to to develop his deep bench.

[JujitsuFlip]

Atkinson isn't a magician. TJ, CPJ, Merrill, and especially Bates, have serious limitations. TJ and CPJ are 3rd string PGs, or at best, flawed backups. I'm not convinced Bates is an NBA player.

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

They can trade other players besides the core 4 lol

They also have signed 0 players.

There is no way you can sit there with a straight face and be happy that the Cavs have made zero transactions this summer outside of hiring Kenny and extending Mitchell.

This team was not a coach away from being a contender, imo.

[jbk1234]

All true, Kenny still sold Koby and Dan on the principals they were looking for. Kenny is everything jb was not, for better or worse.

Kenny took a team to the playoffs securing the 6th seed while giving regular rotation minutes to guys named Joe Harris, Allen Crabbe, Demarre Carroll (now on his staff), RHJ, Dudley, Kurucs, Ed Davis, Treveon Graham, and Napier.

We know the Cavs are of this belief by their lack of trades and signings this summer. They truly believe jb was the sole issue and they're taking a nearly identical roster from 2023 and essentially 2022 against a beefed up Eastern conference... We all sure as crap better hope Kenny is a magician. Not just for those end of bench guys but for the top of the rotation guys too, maybe especially. Kenny did elevate freakin D'Lo to All-Star status after all.

Fans, and people who work for the PD, can be angry that the Cavs didn't make a trade, but no trade is a better outcome than a bad trade. You can't pay Ingram $200M over 4 years and build a contending roster. If the Spurs won't even put Vassell, who is really just a good role player, on table, then the Cavs are better off keeping Garland.

Also, it's not completely irrational to believe that our roster, when healthy, could cause problems against the other top seeds in the East. The Knicks losing Hartenstein is a huge development. Al Horford has no shot against Allen and Mobley can cause Tatum all kinds of problems. Brook Lopez is 36 and fading fast.

Also, you're going to need at least two good ball handlers to get through Jrue and White, or OG, Bridges, and Hart. If it's just Mitchell and Strus, or Mitchell and LeVert, or Mitchell and Okoro, they're just going to double Mitchell and blow up your offense. Ingram got completely shut down by Dort last postseason. It's not a stretch to believe that either NY or Boston could disappear the guy.

If you're going to insist that a trade be made, you need to do more than throw a *better fit* label on it. You need to show your math as far as the Cavs being better after the trade than before it.

They can trade other players besides the core 4 lol

They also have signed 0 players.

There is no way you can sit there with a straight face and be happy that the Cavs have made zero transactions this summer outside of hiring Kenny and extending Mitchell.

This team was not a coach away from being a contender, imo.

I guess my expectations were tied to our available cap space and the trade value of the players we're offering.

Niang and LeVert aren't any teams plan A or B. If there was going to be a trade, it was going to be later in the summer. I felt like Cavs fans were over estimating Okoro's RFA market, especially after March and the playoffs. By extension, his trade market would be limited. We don't know what, if any, space we have available to sign guys as a result.

We extended Mitchell, and if we can brink back Okoro for less than the MLE, that will be a win. If we can improve the backup big situation, that's even better.

[JonFromVA]

Also, if DFS, or Cam Johnson, were worth two protected 1sts, then they'd no longer be on the Nets roster as someone would've coughed those picks up already. They're been on the trade block since the 23 draft.

I don't know that we wasted a year. We advanced to the semi-conference-finals. We have a larger data set than just the Knicks series in terms of what works and what doesn't. The only real miss from last season was Niang, and if you're going to miss, miss on the guy you only gave $8M per.

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

Player development doesn't have to stop, even if the only thing a head coach knows how to do is tell his small forward to go stand in a corner and wait for a pass. It's just all we get to see.

Of course Kenny and gang will be expected to come up with new systems to optimize our players, but there's a big player development component to the staff and it starts with the guy at the top and his associate head coach.

[JonFromVA]

While Sexton's on/off broke into the positive last season, his +/- was still -3.0. The Jazz were still a 30-win team with him as a starter. Honestly, his on/off is likely a function of a rookie PG or a washed Clarkson as the other options. If he ever plays in a starting line up without a stretch 4 as reliable as Love or Lauri, I expect

As far as Okoro, the right play, and freedom to excel, I guess I would want to know what that looks like in terms of winning basketball. After 4 full years in the NBA, Okoro is still very limited on the offensive side of the ball. That includes 3 off seasons in which he could work on any skill set he wanted. There's no reason he couldn't do the things Strus does off ball.

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

Huh? I want them to use player's to their strengths and let them build from there.

Nobody thought Okoro was a PG, but he does have some ability to dribble, pass, drive, run P&R, etc, that the team should have been developing his entire career.

[JonFromVA]

Knocking off the Magic in 7 games doesn't particularly impress me, and our our injuries made it impossible to judge what we really have. So, yeah, wasted season we could have invested in bringing a new coach in and getting him and the roster in sync.

I mean the emphasis on player development with this new coaching staff almost screams out we haven't wasted just this past season, but more like the past 4. Of course a strong player development component in the coaching staff is desirable, but typically a young team on the verge of breaking through would be looking for a coach to just give them that final push.

I guess I'm curious as to why you think the emphasis will be on player development versus the implementation of a new offense. Who, exactly, will we be developing? Tyson, who was still on the board at No. 20? CPJ who is undersized and went undrafted? Bates who is a fringe NBA player?

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement as to the efficacy of player development. The same staff that was purportedly awful at player development saw Garland go from one of the worst players in the league his rookie season, to an all star by his third. Meanwhile, Sexton will be entering his sixth NBA season, and his third under a completely different coaching staff, and outside of some marginal improvement with his shot selection, he's basically the same player. The Spurs didn't bring back Cedi with the hope of developing him into a more useful player.

If Okoro's no longer on the roster when the season starts, is his next team going to build their offense around getting him going? Unless your in a full blown rebuild, you're not willing to lose a bunch of games in the name of development. Even if you are in a rebuild, and you drop 20 games trying Sochan at PG, there's no guarantee it will work.

If our bench players get more run this season, it should be with an eye towards load management and identifying which players can still perform against playoff caliber opponents. Maybe Tyson gets there as a rookie. Maybe whoever we add as a backup big is better than Ed Davis, RoLo, and Damien Jones. Maybe a new offense gets Merrill the extra second he needs to get his shot off against good defenders with length.

Outside of those possibilities, I'd be surprised if our playoff rotation looks any different than it did last time. The key will be to keep all those guys healthy.

I haven't watched Sexton since he left but statistically he clearly made significant improvements in Utah in most aspects of his game including efficiency (star-level for a guard), passing (only 0.5 assists per 36 less than Garland last year), and impact (positive across the board including +2.2 EPM).

Okoro had severe issues with simply not getting touches on offense. Whether that was his problem or a coaching choice is not something we can know, but either way a new coach probably gets him more involved regardless of where he plays next year (unless it's Detroit). It won't be as much about building offense around him as much as it is building him into the offense at all. That said, you can't say you'll know the results until it happens.

You can make a case right now that JBB was either good or bad at development. He at least got consistent effort and production on the defensive end of the floor. I think that he coached players into good fundamental choices-- making the "right play"-- while not giving enough freedom to players to excel when there isn't a "right play" available.

Collin has made progress in Utah, but I'm hesitant to go too far with it given the Jazz are still like -3.4 when he's on the floor. Lauri is clearly the much better example of a player that was unlocked when Hardy designed plays for him in Utah. It's not all that. Multiple things were coming together for Lauri, but we sure didn't unlock him.

[jbk1234]

Utah won 30 games because they traded half their rotation at the deadline in an attempt to tank.

Okoro averaged .062 assists per touch, Strus averaged .072. Okoro averaged .306 points per touch, Strus averaged .221. Okoro scored much more and passed nearly as much per touch as Strus. The issue is that Strus got nearly twice as many touches per game.

Some of that may be "Okoro needs to go get the ball more", but for a young guy that usually starts with their coach empowering it.

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

Huh? I want them to use player's to their strengths and let them build from there.

Nobody thought Okoro was a PG, but he does have some ability to dribble, pass, drive, run P&R, etc, that the team should have been developing his entire career.

Who says the Cavs didn't try? Like where does this assumption come from that the team didn't do enough, or for that matter, what is enough? I've seen them try to involve him in sets at the top of the arc as a ball handler. He struggles.

Dribbling? Driving? Passing? Okoro can't work on those things in the offseason? Whose to say Okoro hasn't tried and part of his confidence issues stem from his inability to really improve in those areas?

People talk about limited players like the only thing that stands between them and all star appearance is player development. If that were the case, every team would just draft the best physical prototypes and heavily invest in player development.

[JonFromVA]

The Cavs played Okoro as a PG in SL after his rookie year. Okoro was our starting 2 guard the season before Mitchell got here with Lauri as a floor spacing 3. Despite both Rubio and Sexton being out with injuries, and the Cavs having no one other than Garland to create offense, Okoro gave us nothing. The Cavs wanted Okoro to be the player you and Jon wanted him to be.

Strus gets more touches because he plays like he wants more touches. He moves without the ball. He doesn't look to pass whenever he gets the ball.

Huh? I want them to use player's to their strengths and let them build from there.

Nobody thought Okoro was a PG, but he does have some ability to dribble, pass, drive, run P&R, etc, that the team should have been developing his entire career.

Who says the Cavs didn't try? Like where does this assumption come from that the team didn't do enough, or for that matter, what is enough? I've seen them try to involve him in sets at the top of the arc as a ball handler. He struggles.

Dribbling? Driving? Passing? Okoro can't work on those things in the offseason? Whose to say Okoro hasn't tried and part of his confidence issues stem from his inability to really improve in those areas?

People talk about limited players like the only thing that stands between them and all star appearance is player development. If that were the case, every team would just draft the best physical prototypes and heavily invest in player development.

Who's saying that?

Go watch Okoro's college and high school tape and then tell me you don't see something the Cavs couldn't had been developing if they were willing to take the ball out of someone else's hands and let him run some actions now and again.