Trade Ideas

[KuruptedCav]

Caris is an awesome catch/shoot/pass player, but he refuses to do it. Instead, he catches, dribbles 3+ times and drives/pulls up; neither of which he’s particularly efficient at…

That’s why his impressive stats over the last 2-3 months haven’t translated to wins. It’s +2.2 PPG with him on the floor vs sitting.

Letting defenses reset by pounding the ball and then passing into the post or back to the PG when the clock winds down isn’t the ball movement the Cavs need. Those assist numbers are cheap.

Consider the FG% of the players LeVert passes to at least .5 times per game on his passes: Sabonis (-10%), Turner (-4%), Brogdon (-25%), Holiday (-6%), Craig (-7%), Duarte (0%), Brissett (+1%), Lamb (+8%).

His stats and style of play come at a cost, add that to the $17 mil in cap space, and draft capital, and the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

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[toooskies]

Ten feet isn't enough spacing with this roster. It simply isn't. I'm skeptical that 15 feet is enough spacing with this roster. The reality is that Sexton took more than 75% of shots inside the three point line. Levert takes 66% of shots from within the three point line.

I'm just saying that LeVert at least needs to be guarded at the 3-point line and is a threat to shoot all through the mid-range. Sexton needs to be guarded at the 3-point line all the way to the hoop. And if either of them would be the primary creator on the team when Garland is off the floor, they need to operate inside the three-point line to open up passes and lobs to Allen and Mobley.

If you want an upgrade/alternative to Cedi, fine, go get Gordon. Or Luke Kennard, who doesn't go anywhere near the rim. But while that is one area this team could see improvement, having a functional playmaker when Garland isn't on the floor is a much bigger priority for this season (even when Garland is healthy) and if we use Rubio and/or Sexton's contracts to make it happen, for the future as well. I don't think Gordon fills that need at all. Trading Rubio's contract makes this a bigger problem in the future unless that guy can distribute the ball.

On the list of assist% of guys who are available for trade, LeVert is at least in the top ten. (Others at the top of the can-pass-and-are-potentially-available list: Westbrook (no), Beal (interesting but no), Dinwiddie (no), Derrick White (maybe but can't shoot), Cory Joseph (maybe but isn't very good), De'Aaron Fox (no), Facundo Campazzo (no), Eric Bledsoe (no), Dennis Schroder (no).

So my preference now is LeVert > Gordon if we make just one move with Rubio's salary-- at least some playmaking is there. I might prefer Derrick White if he can be had for the same price-- better defense and similar shooting. If we got a Cory Joseph type into our DPE first (or for Cedi since that's the roster role being taken by an incoming wing), then I'd probably want Gordon.

Or, we way overpay with draft assets for a young guard on a rookie deal (a 1st for Tre Jones? A 1st and two 2nds for Quickley? Three 1sts for Haliburton?) and just get an Eric Gordon or Harrison Barnes on the wing for Rubio.

I don't know where you're getting your shooting numbers from but E. Gordon is a far better shooter than LeVert. He can also handle ball well enough to take pressure off of Garland.

Just pulling shooting tracking stats from basketball reference.

I didn't say LeVert was better shooter. But he shoots a lot more long 2s than Gordon and makes them at a decent clip (~40%). That's about league average or a little better on those shots. LeVert takes as many long 2s + 3s as Gordon, it's just that for Gordon that's almost all 3s (which is better shot selection LeVert's a more frequent and better passer and better playmaker-- much higher assist% and lower percentage of shots assisted. Gordon is making more unassisted 3s than ever in his career though, so perhaps I'm underrating him.

I like seeing KuruptedCav's stats too (I don't watch much Pacers ball) and that puts some of LeVert's passing in (negative) context, but my point stands-- the 12-20 minutes that Rondo or Goodwin play are currently the weakest in our rotation and LeVert probably improves those. LeVert might even be better starting with the ball so he doesn't take his "turn" dribbling late in the clock.

I do not believe Gordon by himself improves the team nearly as much, at least in isolation-- he's just taking minutes from Osman and Okoro and Windler, which is likely an improvement but a risk of team chemistry.

If we go Gordon, we'd better get a real backup PG some other way. Even if it's just Cory Joseph or something.

[KuruptedCav]

I'm just saying that LeVert at least needs to be guarded at the 3-point line and is a threat to shoot all through the mid-range. Sexton needs to be guarded at the 3-point line all the way to the hoop. And if either of them would be the primary creator on the team when Garland is off the floor, they need to operate inside the three-point line to open up passes and lobs to Allen and Mobley.

If you want an upgrade/alternative to Cedi, fine, go get Gordon. Or Luke Kennard, who doesn't go anywhere near the rim. But while that is one area this team could see improvement, having a functional playmaker when Garland isn't on the floor is a much bigger priority for this season (even when Garland is healthy) and if we use Rubio and/or Sexton's contracts to make it happen, for the future as well. I don't think Gordon fills that need at all. Trading Rubio's contract makes this a bigger problem in the future unless that guy can distribute the ball.

On the list of assist% of guys who are available for trade, LeVert is at least in the top ten. (Others at the top of the can-pass-and-are-potentially-available list: Westbrook (no), Beal (interesting but no), Dinwiddie (no), Derrick White (maybe but can't shoot), Cory Joseph (maybe but isn't very good), De'Aaron Fox (no), Facundo Campazzo (no), Eric Bledsoe (no), Dennis Schroder (no).

So my preference now is LeVert > Gordon if we make just one move with Rubio's salary-- at least some playmaking is there. I might prefer Derrick White if he can be had for the same price-- better defense and similar shooting. If we got a Cory Joseph type into our DPE first (or for Cedi since that's the roster role being taken by an incoming wing), then I'd probably want Gordon.

Or, we way overpay with draft assets for a young guard on a rookie deal (a 1st for Tre Jones? A 1st and two 2nds for Quickley? Three 1sts for Haliburton?) and just get an Eric Gordon or Harrison Barnes on the wing for Rubio.

I don't know where you're getting your shooting numbers from but E. Gordon is a far better shooter than LeVert. He can also handle ball well enough to take pressure off of Garland.

Just pulling shooting tracking stats from basketball reference.

I didn't say LeVert was better shooter. But he shoots a lot more long 2s than Gordon and makes them at a decent clip (~40%). That's about league average or a little better on those shots. LeVert takes as many long 2s + 3s as Gordon, it's just that for Gordon that's almost all 3s (which is better shot selection LeVert's a more frequent and better passer and better playmaker-- much higher assist% and lower percentage of shots assisted. Gordon is making more unassisted 3s than ever in his career though, so perhaps I'm underrating him.

I like seeing KuruptedCav's stats too (I don't watch much Pacers ball) and that puts some of LeVert's passing in (negative) context, but my point stands-- the 12-20 minutes that Rondo or Goodwin play are currently the weakest in our rotation and LeVert probably improves those. LeVert might even be better starting with the ball so he doesn't take his "turn" dribbling late in the clock.

I do not believe Gordon by himself improves the team nearly as much, at least in isolation-- he's just taking minutes from Osman and Okoro and Windler, which is likely an improvement but a risk of team chemistry.

If we go Gordon, we'd better get a real backup PG some other way. Even if it's just Cory Joseph or something.

And this is why, if Rubio is not in the plans, I’d use his contract and pay for a legit PG like Derrick White.

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Add in plus defense and the ability to handle primary ball handling and fitting the Rubio salary slot, and I’m good. I’m less concerned about cap space in 2 years or the tax in 3-4 than others.

Does foreclose Sexton, but, that’s speculative as it is…


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[jbk1234]

I don't know where you're getting your shooting numbers from but E. Gordon is a far better shooter than LeVert. He can also handle ball well enough to take pressure off of Garland.

Just pulling shooting tracking stats from basketball reference.

I didn't say LeVert was better shooter. But he shoots a lot more long 2s than Gordon and makes them at a decent clip (~40%). That's about league average or a little better on those shots. LeVert takes as many long 2s + 3s as Gordon, it's just that for Gordon that's almost all 3s (which is better shot selection LeVert's a more frequent and better passer and better playmaker-- much higher assist% and lower percentage of shots assisted. Gordon is making more unassisted 3s than ever in his career though, so perhaps I'm underrating him.

I like seeing KuruptedCav's stats too (I don't watch much Pacers ball) and that puts some of LeVert's passing in (negative) context, but my point stands-- the 12-20 minutes that Rondo or Goodwin play are currently the weakest in our rotation and LeVert probably improves those. LeVert might even be better starting with the ball so he doesn't take his "turn" dribbling late in the clock.

I do not believe Gordon by himself improves the team nearly as much, at least in isolation-- he's just taking minutes from Osman and Okoro and Windler, which is likely an improvement but a risk of team chemistry.

If we go Gordon, we'd better get a real backup PG some other way. Even if it's just Cory Joseph or something.

And this is why, if Rubio is not in the plans, I’d use his contract and pay for a legit PG like Derrick White.

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Add in plus defense and the ability to handle primary ball handling and fitting the Rubio salary slot, and I’m good. I’m less concerned about cap space in 2 years or the tax in 3-4 than others.

Does foreclose Sexton, but, that’s speculative as it is…


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I just think we need shooting far more than you do.

[KuruptedCav]

Just pulling shooting tracking stats from basketball reference.

I didn't say LeVert was better shooter. But he shoots a lot more long 2s than Gordon and makes them at a decent clip (~40%). That's about league average or a little better on those shots. LeVert takes as many long 2s + 3s as Gordon, it's just that for Gordon that's almost all 3s (which is better shot selection LeVert's a more frequent and better passer and better playmaker-- much higher assist% and lower percentage of shots assisted. Gordon is making more unassisted 3s than ever in his career though, so perhaps I'm underrating him.

I like seeing KuruptedCav's stats too (I don't watch much Pacers ball) and that puts some of LeVert's passing in (negative) context, but my point stands-- the 12-20 minutes that Rondo or Goodwin play are currently the weakest in our rotation and LeVert probably improves those. LeVert might even be better starting with the ball so he doesn't take his "turn" dribbling late in the clock.

I do not believe Gordon by himself improves the team nearly as much, at least in isolation-- he's just taking minutes from Osman and Okoro and Windler, which is likely an improvement but a risk of team chemistry.

If we go Gordon, we'd better get a real backup PG some other way. Even if it's just Cory Joseph or something.

And this is why, if Rubio is not in the plans, I’d use his contract and pay for a legit PG like Derrick White.

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Add in plus defense and the ability to handle primary ball handling and fitting the Rubio salary slot, and I’m good. I’m less concerned about cap space in 2 years or the tax in 3-4 than others.

Does foreclose Sexton, but, that’s speculative as it is…


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I just think we need shooting far more than you do.

No doubt; but if a ball handling 2-way wing shooting 38% from beyond the arc were available; the price would be prohibitive.

The team has multiple needs that can be filled by multiple players.


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[toooskies]

Just pulling shooting tracking stats from basketball reference.

I didn't say LeVert was better shooter. But he shoots a lot more long 2s than Gordon and makes them at a decent clip (~40%). That's about league average or a little better on those shots. LeVert takes as many long 2s + 3s as Gordon, it's just that for Gordon that's almost all 3s (which is better shot selection LeVert's a more frequent and better passer and better playmaker-- much higher assist% and lower percentage of shots assisted. Gordon is making more unassisted 3s than ever in his career though, so perhaps I'm underrating him.

I like seeing KuruptedCav's stats too (I don't watch much Pacers ball) and that puts some of LeVert's passing in (negative) context, but my point stands-- the 12-20 minutes that Rondo or Goodwin play are currently the weakest in our rotation and LeVert probably improves those. LeVert might even be better starting with the ball so he doesn't take his "turn" dribbling late in the clock.

I do not believe Gordon by himself improves the team nearly as much, at least in isolation-- he's just taking minutes from Osman and Okoro and Windler, which is likely an improvement but a risk of team chemistry.

If we go Gordon, we'd better get a real backup PG some other way. Even if it's just Cory Joseph or something.

And this is why, if Rubio is not in the plans, I’d use his contract and pay for a legit PG like Derrick White.

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Add in plus defense and the ability to handle primary ball handling and fitting the Rubio salary slot, and I’m good. I’m less concerned about cap space in 2 years or the tax in 3-4 than others.

Does foreclose Sexton, but, that’s speculative as it is…


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I just think we need shooting far more than you do.

Well, tell me whose minutes Gordon is taking and how that affects the defense, because you're probably benching Okoro or Stevens to get more shooting on the floor.

Otherwise he's a guy who shot 33% the past two years from three and 38% last month. He's not someone you count on to be above 40% year-in and year-out like some guys (i.e. Kennard or Seth Curry). He's under 36% over the past 5 years (Cedi is at 35% over that span). He's got a history of injury, so the chances of us getting to the finish line as a whole team are lower with him on it. He'd add to our collection of the worst rebounding guards in the league. You say he's a good defender but all the stats say otherwise.

We'd be buying VERY high on Gordon right now.

[jbk1234]

And this is why, if Rubio is not in the plans, I’d use his contract and pay for a legit PG like Derrick White.

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Add in plus defense and the ability to handle primary ball handling and fitting the Rubio salary slot, and I’m good. I’m less concerned about cap space in 2 years or the tax in 3-4 than others.

Does foreclose Sexton, but, that’s speculative as it is…


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I just think we need shooting far more than you do.

Well, tell me whose minutes Gordon is taking and how that affects the defense, because you're probably benching Okoro or Stevens to get more shooting on the floor.

Otherwise he's a guy who shot 33% the past two years from three and 38% last month. He's not someone you count on to be above 40% year-in and year-out like some guys (i.e. Kennard or Seth Curry). He's under 36% over the past 5 years (Cedi is at 35% over that span). He's got a history of injury, so the chances of us getting to the finish line as a whole team are lower with him on it. He'd add to our collection of the worst rebounding guards in the league. You say he's a good defender but all the stats say otherwise.

We'd be buying VERY high on Gordon right now.

I have zero concerns about taking minutes away from Stevens. None at all. He should be a five to ten minute a night guy.

I'm not interested in overpaying for any of the guys who are currently rumored to be available. Gordon included. I do think the Cavs should be open to moving Sexton in the right deal. If sending Sexton to OKC for an asset is what it takes to land a guy like CJ, I'd do it.

If push comes to shove and we're trading for someone who can just run an offense, I'd strongly prefer to send a second and Pangos for Schroder over tying up the books this summer on a guy like LeVert.

[JonFromVA]

Looking at the same passing stats I did for Caris: Murray and Poeltl have effectively the same Fg% on passes from him, McDermott (+11), Vassell (+7); Walker (+17), Eubanks (+1) and Young (+20) all are plus shooters on passes from him; Johnson (-5) is the exception.

Just have to be careful when dealing with the Spurs and try to guess how much of a player's performance is related to their system. Is White creating those shots? Or is he being a good teammate in a motion offense swinging the ball to the final open shooter?

Of course that's not a bad trait if he's playing SG next to Garland, but then his shooting is a factor.

Anyway, tbd that Pops does anything at the deadline, let alone trades a useful player without getting back a useful player. And even if he'd be interested in a pick for White, such a deal has a lot more value at the time of the draft when they know who will be available with the pick (ex: George Hill for Kawhi Leonard trade).

[jbk1234]

I wonder if the Knicks would Grimes and Quickly for Sexton and Pangos. The Cavs probably need the Fox/Randle discussions to fall apart first.

[JonFromVA]

I wonder if the Knicks would Grimes and Quickly for Sexton and Pangos. The Cavs probably need the Fox/Randle discussions to fall apart first.

If Thibs survives the season, there was some talk that Sexton seemed like the sort of Derrick Rose style guard he'd want to build around; but I'm not sure for how much longer they'll be considering his input when it comes to team construction.

Just not sure Altman has lowered what he wants back for Sexton that far ...

[toooskies]

I wonder if the Knicks would Grimes and Quickly for Sexton and Pangos. The Cavs probably need the Fox/Randle discussions to fall apart first.

I'd love to get Quickley and would be willing to eat a vet contract to get him.

[jbk1234]

I wonder if the Knicks would Grimes and Quickly for Sexton and Pangos. The Cavs probably need the Fox/Randle discussions to fall apart first.

I'd love to get Quickley and would be willing to eat a vet contract to get him.

He hasn't been good this season. His shooting percentages are way down and he's only averaging 3 assists despite the Knicks being desperate for PG help. A lot of bloom is off the rose. Grimes would be my primary target here but I would hope that Quickley could do better than Goodwin/Rondo.

[jbk1234]

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[toooskies]

I wonder if the Knicks would Grimes and Quickly for Sexton and Pangos. The Cavs probably need the Fox/Randle discussions to fall apart first.

I'd love to get Quickley and would be willing to eat a vet contract to get him.

He hasn't been good this season. His shooting percentages are way down and he's only averaging 3 assists despite the Knicks being desperate for PG help. A lot of bloom is off the rose. Grimes would be my primary target here but I would hope that Quickley could do better than Goodwin/Rondo.

His on/off is +17.2. His shooting isn't great this year, but it seems to be a bit streaky. In the meantime his defensive tracking stats are amazing.

Most of the concerns about him not being the PG in New York is that a) Thibs won't start him, probably because he's young and b) when Rose is healthy he's playing SG. Since Rose has been out his assist numbers are up, averaging 4 assists in 22 minutes in January.

I think it's a great time to pick him up out of a situation that's not very appreciative of him. And if we end up with Rose or Burks even Kemba or Fournier as a depth add, great.

IQ + Rose for Rubio + 2022 CLE 1st + 2022 SAS 2nd?
IQ + Burks for Sexton + Pangos + 2022 HOU 2nd?
IQ + Kemba for Sexton + Pangos?
IQ + Fournier for Rubio + Sexton + 2022 SAS 2nd?

All of those deals are at least conversation starters if NY is willing to part with Quickley, and should be for the Knicks if they want to give Grimes and Reddish more time on the court. The Knicks are definitely a team that should want Sexton's RFA rights.

[jbk1234]

I'd love to get Quickley and would be willing to eat a vet contract to get him.

He hasn't been good this season. His shooting percentages are way down and he's only averaging 3 assists despite the Knicks being desperate for PG help. A lot of bloom is off the rose. Grimes would be my primary target here but I would hope that Quickley could do better than Goodwin/Rondo.

His on/off is +17.2. His shooting isn't great this year, but it seems to be a bit streaky. In the meantime his defensive tracking stats are amazing.

Most of the concerns about him not being the PG in New York is that a) Thibs won't start him, probably because he's young and b) when Rose is healthy he's playing SG. Since Rose has been out his assist numbers are up, averaging 4 assists in 22 minutes in January.

I think it's a great time to pick him up out of a situation that's not very appreciative of him. And if we end up with Rose or Burks even Kemba or Fournier as a depth add, great.

IQ + Rose for Rubio + 2022 CLE 1st + 2022 SAS 2nd?
IQ + Burks for Sexton + Pangos + 2022 HOU 2nd?
IQ + Kemba for Sexton + Pangos?
IQ + Fournier for Rubio + Sexton + 2022 SAS 2nd?

All of those deals are at least conversation starters if NY is willing to part with Quickley, and should be for the Knicks if they want to give Grimes and Reddish more time on the court. The Knicks are definitely a team that should want Sexton's RFA rights.

These are all very bad for the Cavs and you're really overrating IQ. Sexton, who I'm nowhere near as high on as the rest of this board, is the better player period. IQ is, at best, a homeless man's version of Sexton.

Here's what happened in NY this year, Kemba was unplayable due to his defense and was issued DNP status. Rose got injured and they tried to start IQ. But, it turns out playing against starters in the NBA is very different than playing against bench units and IQ really underwhelmed as a starting PG, so much so that Kemba got reinserted into the lineup despite being pretty unplayable. Also, there are Knicks fans who feel like IQ's inability to run the offense as a starter has negatively impacted Randle, which should be a huge concern for the Cavs for obvious reasons.

I put no stock into into but he had a good month stuff. I've seen it too many times with Sexton. A considerable part of value is consistency.

[toooskies]

He hasn't been good this season. His shooting percentages are way down and he's only averaging 3 assists despite the Knicks being desperate for PG help. A lot of bloom is off the rose. Grimes would be my primary target here but I would hope that Quickley could do better than Goodwin/Rondo.

His on/off is +17.2. His shooting isn't great this year, but it seems to be a bit streaky. In the meantime his defensive tracking stats are amazing.

Most of the concerns about him not being the PG in New York is that a) Thibs won't start him, probably because he's young and b) when Rose is healthy he's playing SG. Since Rose has been out his assist numbers are up, averaging 4 assists in 22 minutes in January.

I think it's a great time to pick him up out of a situation that's not very appreciative of him. And if we end up with Rose or Burks even Kemba or Fournier as a depth add, great.

IQ + Rose for Rubio + 2022 CLE 1st + 2022 SAS 2nd?
IQ + Burks for Sexton + Pangos + 2022 HOU 2nd?
IQ + Kemba for Sexton + Pangos?
IQ + Fournier for Rubio + Sexton + 2022 SAS 2nd?

All of those deals are at least conversation starters if NY is willing to part with Quickley, and should be for the Knicks if they want to give Grimes and Reddish more time on the court. The Knicks are definitely a team that should want Sexton's RFA rights.

These are al very bad for the Cavs and you're really overrating IQ. Sexton, who I'm nowhere near as high on as the rest of this board, is the better player period. IQ is, at best, a homeless man's version of Sexton.

Here's what happened in NY this year, Kemba was unplayable due to his defense and was issued DNP status. Rose got injured and they tried to start IQ. But, it turns out playing against starters in the NBA is very different than playing against bench units and IQ really underwhelmed as a starting PG, so much so that Kemba got reinserted into the lineup despite being pretty unplayable. Also, there are Knicks fans who feel like IQ's inability to run the offense as a starter has negatively impacted Randle, which should be a huge concern for the Cavs for obvious reasons.

I put no stock into into but he had a good month stuff. I've seen it too many times with Sexton. A considerable part of value is consistency.

I'd love to know where you get your Knicks takes because this does not line up with the stats or the takes I found searching the web for a few minutes.

But, Quickley has fewer starts than Kevin Pangos does this year, so I don't buy the narrative that he was given a chance to be the starter. Maybe he got a one-game audition against the Bulls and didn't do great on offense (but did well on defense, holding Lonzo to 3/14 shooting)?

The two-man lineup of Quickley + Randle has a NETRTG -0.6, the third-best two-man lineup on the Knicks involving Randle. (With Kemba, -9.8. With Grimes, -8.2. With Burks, -6.1. With Rose, -0.4. With Toppin +5.1, in only 93 minutes.) I don't see the problem here as IQ. Honestly all of Randle's 2-man lineups are terrible on offense, leading me to believe that the problem is the offense being centered around Randle. IQ's strong point is that the Knicks' defense plays really well when he's out there with just about everyone (except Noel), so when both IQ and Randle are on the floor they defend pretty well. When it's Kemba and Fournier, not so much.

The Knicks view IQ more as a SG or combo guard and not a PG, and that's fine-- not saying he should be the primary guard in Cleveland. I think he is a similar player right now defensively to Okoro while having more shooting and ballhandling, if not being a future primary ballhandler, but being much worse at the rim. (That's why that first deal with Rose would be my preference, they've been terrific together.)

[jbk1234]

His on/off is +17.2. His shooting isn't great this year, but it seems to be a bit streaky. In the meantime his defensive tracking stats are amazing.

Most of the concerns about him not being the PG in New York is that a) Thibs won't start him, probably because he's young and b) when Rose is healthy he's playing SG. Since Rose has been out his assist numbers are up, averaging 4 assists in 22 minutes in January.

I think it's a great time to pick him up out of a situation that's not very appreciative of him. And if we end up with Rose or Burks even Kemba or Fournier as a depth add, great.

IQ + Rose for Rubio + 2022 CLE 1st + 2022 SAS 2nd?
IQ + Burks for Sexton + Pangos + 2022 HOU 2nd?
IQ + Kemba for Sexton + Pangos?
IQ + Fournier for Rubio + Sexton + 2022 SAS 2nd?

All of those deals are at least conversation starters if NY is willing to part with Quickley, and should be for the Knicks if they want to give Grimes and Reddish more time on the court. The Knicks are definitely a team that should want Sexton's RFA rights.

These are al very bad for the Cavs and you're really overrating IQ. Sexton, who I'm nowhere near as high on as the rest of this board, is the better player period. IQ is, at best, a homeless man's version of Sexton.

Here's what happened in NY this year, Kemba was unplayable due to his defense and was issued DNP status. Rose got injured and they tried to start IQ. But, it turns out playing against starters in the NBA is very different than playing against bench units and IQ really underwhelmed as a starting PG, so much so that Kemba got reinserted into the lineup despite being pretty unplayable. Also, there are Knicks fans who feel like IQ's inability to run the offense as a starter has negatively impacted Randle, which should be a huge concern for the Cavs for obvious reasons.

I put no stock into into but he had a good month stuff. I've seen it too many times with Sexton. A considerable part of value is consistency.

I'd love to know where you get your Knicks takes because this does not line up with the stats or the takes I found searching the web for a few minutes.

But, Quickley has fewer starts than Kevin Pangos does this year, so I don't buy the narrative that he was given a chance to be the starter. Maybe he got a one-game audition against the Bulls and didn't do great on offense (but did well on defense, holding Lonzo to 3/14 shooting)?

The two-man lineup of Quickley + Randle has a NETRTG -0.6, the third-best two-man lineup on the Knicks involving Randle. (With Kemba, -9.8. With Grimes, -8.2. With Burks, -6.1. With Rose, -0.4. With Toppin +5.1, in only 93 minutes.) I don't see the problem here as IQ. Honestly all of Randle's 2-man lineups are terrible on offense, leading me to believe that the problem is the offense being centered around Randle. IQ's strong point is that the Knicks' defense plays really well when he's out there with just about everyone (except Noel), so when both IQ and Randle are on the floor they defend pretty well. When it's Kemba and Fournier, not so much.

The Knicks view IQ more as a SG or combo guard and not a PG, and that's fine-- not saying he should be the primary guard in Cleveland. I think he is a similar player right now defensively to Okoro while having more shooting and ballhandling, if not being a future primary ballhandler, but being much worse at the rim. (That's why that first deal with Rose would be my preference, they've been terrific together.)

Going off of rotation player's advanced defensive stats, when he splits his minutes between starters and bench units, is dangerous. Also, as the guy playing in front of him most of this season has been Kemba, I would hope that the Knicks defensive numbers improve when IQ is on the floor instead. But the fact remains that the Knicks have tried to give IQ more minutes with the starters this season and it hasn't gone well. On a Thibs coached team, if IQ was half the defender you're convinced he is, he'd be starting all the time.

If the Knicks are open to something around Sexton for IQ and Grimes, I'd consider it. I might even toss in a second. But Sexton is a considerably more dynamic offensive player and the Knicks are likely winning that trade. The entire point of going after guys on their rookie deals would be to preserve the option of targeting a guy like TJ Warren this summer. What you do now impacts what you can do five months from now. I wouldn't take back any garbage contracts.

[toooskies]

These are al very bad for the Cavs and you're really overrating IQ. Sexton, who I'm nowhere near as high on as the rest of this board, is the better player period. IQ is, at best, a homeless man's version of Sexton.

Here's what happened in NY this year, Kemba was unplayable due to his defense and was issued DNP status. Rose got injured and they tried to start IQ. But, it turns out playing against starters in the NBA is very different than playing against bench units and IQ really underwhelmed as a starting PG, so much so that Kemba got reinserted into the lineup despite being pretty unplayable. Also, there are Knicks fans who feel like IQ's inability to run the offense as a starter has negatively impacted Randle, which should be a huge concern for the Cavs for obvious reasons.

I put no stock into into but he had a good month stuff. I've seen it too many times with Sexton. A considerable part of value is consistency.

I'd love to know where you get your Knicks takes because this does not line up with the stats or the takes I found searching the web for a few minutes.

But, Quickley has fewer starts than Kevin Pangos does this year, so I don't buy the narrative that he was given a chance to be the starter. Maybe he got a one-game audition against the Bulls and didn't do great on offense (but did well on defense, holding Lonzo to 3/14 shooting)?

The two-man lineup of Quickley + Randle has a NETRTG -0.6, the third-best two-man lineup on the Knicks involving Randle. (With Kemba, -9.8. With Grimes, -8.2. With Burks, -6.1. With Rose, -0.4. With Toppin +5.1, in only 93 minutes.) I don't see the problem here as IQ. Honestly all of Randle's 2-man lineups are terrible on offense, leading me to believe that the problem is the offense being centered around Randle. IQ's strong point is that the Knicks' defense plays really well when he's out there with just about everyone (except Noel), so when both IQ and Randle are on the floor they defend pretty well. When it's Kemba and Fournier, not so much.

The Knicks view IQ more as a SG or combo guard and not a PG, and that's fine-- not saying he should be the primary guard in Cleveland. I think he is a similar player right now defensively to Okoro while having more shooting and ballhandling, if not being a future primary ballhandler, but being much worse at the rim. (That's why that first deal with Rose would be my preference, they've been terrific together.)

Going off of rotation player's advanced defensive stats, when he splits his minutes between starters and bench units, is dangerous. Also, as the guy playing in front of him most of this season has been Kemba, I would hope that the Knicks defensive numbers improve when IQ is on the floor instead. But the fact remains that the Knicks have tried to give IQ more minutes with the starters this season and it hasn't gone well. On a Thibs coached team, if IQ was half the defender you're convinced he is, he'd be starting all the time.

If the Knicks are open to something around Sexton for IQ and Grimes, I'd consider it. I might even toss in a second. But Sexton is a considerably more dynamic offensive player and the Knicks are likely winning that trade. The entire point of going after guys on their rookie deals would be to preserve the option of targeting a guy like TJ Warren this summer. What you do now impacts what you can do five months from now. I wouldn't take back any garbage contracts.

Saying "whenever he's on the floor, the team plays like a top 5 defense, regardless of who the players are around him" isn't looking at particularly advanced defensive stats. It's pretty much the most basic defensive stat.

[jbk1234]

I wonder when Mr. Glass will be done playing overseas.

[JonFromVA]

I'd love to know where you get your Knicks takes because this does not line up with the stats or the takes I found searching the web for a few minutes.

But, Quickley has fewer starts than Kevin Pangos does this year, so I don't buy the narrative that he was given a chance to be the starter. Maybe he got a one-game audition against the Bulls and didn't do great on offense (but did well on defense, holding Lonzo to 3/14 shooting)?

The two-man lineup of Quickley + Randle has a NETRTG -0.6, the third-best two-man lineup on the Knicks involving Randle. (With Kemba, -9.8. With Grimes, -8.2. With Burks, -6.1. With Rose, -0.4. With Toppin +5.1, in only 93 minutes.) I don't see the problem here as IQ. Honestly all of Randle's 2-man lineups are terrible on offense, leading me to believe that the problem is the offense being centered around Randle. IQ's strong point is that the Knicks' defense plays really well when he's out there with just about everyone (except Noel), so when both IQ and Randle are on the floor they defend pretty well. When it's Kemba and Fournier, not so much.

The Knicks view IQ more as a SG or combo guard and not a PG, and that's fine-- not saying he should be the primary guard in Cleveland. I think he is a similar player right now defensively to Okoro while having more shooting and ballhandling, if not being a future primary ballhandler, but being much worse at the rim. (That's why that first deal with Rose would be my preference, they've been terrific together.)

Going off of rotation player's advanced defensive stats, when he splits his minutes between starters and bench units, is dangerous. Also, as the guy playing in front of him most of this season has been Kemba, I would hope that the Knicks defensive numbers improve when IQ is on the floor instead. But the fact remains that the Knicks have tried to give IQ more minutes with the starters this season and it hasn't gone well. On a Thibs coached team, if IQ was half the defender you're convinced he is, he'd be starting all the time.

If the Knicks are open to something around Sexton for IQ and Grimes, I'd consider it. I might even toss in a second. But Sexton is a considerably more dynamic offensive player and the Knicks are likely winning that trade. The entire point of going after guys on their rookie deals would be to preserve the option of targeting a guy like TJ Warren this summer. What you do now impacts what you can do five months from now. I wouldn't take back any garbage contracts.

Saying "whenever he's on the floor, the team plays like a top 5 defense, regardless of who the players are around him" isn't looking at particularly advanced defensive stats. It's pretty much the most basic defensive stat.

Heh, the most basic defensive stats are steals, rebounds, and blocks.

Team defensive rating with and without a player on the floor is a good one, especially when combined with plus-minus where Quickley has the best or at least one of the best on the Knicks depending if you prefer OnCourt or On-Off.

nba.com's defensive dash board seems to like him too:

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1630193/defense-dash/

There's something good going on with the Knick's bench and it's fair to give Quickley some credit for it with Rose out since Dec 16th.

Which does not mean I'd do the trade and still expect Altman would want more for Collin.