2021-22 regular season thread

[Revenged25]

Oh I agree, I just think trading Nance and everything he brings to this team in favor of a 3pt specialist would be a step in the wrong direction. Nance simply does too much for this team with his swiss army knife play style that he practically 2 players in 1 because of his versatility. He can be a backup SF in a big linup or your backup PF, even play some C in a pinch.

As far as the shooting goes, I would like to think (in a perfect world) the players on our team improve. Garland puts up more volume, Windler comes back healthy and is a flamethrower, Love stays healthy and shoots his 37+%, Okoro improves to a respectable number in his 2nd year, ect, ect. We have guys who can make 3s at a good percentage--the problem is we dont have guys who shoot in volume. Thats where Garland taking that step to 9-10 per game and Love hopefully being healthy taking his 7-9 per game could help boost those team numbers a bit.

Sure seems we all agree the Cavs need to improve their shooting and floor spacing, but the free-agent options weren't all that great to begin with and they're only getting worse.

For instance I wouldn't have minded seeing us sign Otto Porter, but the odds of him being healthy and productive through a season aren't particularly high. Given we have players under contract and we should have simple luxuries this season such as training camp, practice time, and an experienced PG on the roster ... we might take a closer look at what we think we have before spending all our remaining cap space on a bandaid.

If there was a move that solidified our starting lineup for years to come? That'd be great, but it's a reach to even conclude we're just one move away from finding that core. When the P&D Cavs traded for Nance Sr, at least they had good reason to believe he was the last piece they needed - that turned out wrong - but we can't even begin to pretend we're one player away from being the top team in the East.

The only way the Cavs can find value via free-agency is to either wait for LeBron to want to come back, or wait for the music to stop playing and see who's left without a chair.

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

They gave Love a contract more than he was worth, they bought out Drummond after they couldn't trade him, and when JR was a disruption they let him stay at home collecting paychecks. How exactly have they done those veterans wrong? Because they didn't give them minutes they didn't deserve, that they didn't sculpt the roster to them when they aren't those types of players?

The only real black eye the Cavs have had in dealing with veterans was "The Letter" after the equally bad PR move of "The Decision". Outside of Beilein's slugs/thugs obv but that's more on the former coach than the org itself.

[JonFromVA]

Oh I agree, I just think trading Nance and everything he brings to this team in favor of a 3pt specialist would be a step in the wrong direction. Nance simply does too much for this team with his swiss army knife play style that he practically 2 players in 1 because of his versatility. He can be a backup SF in a big linup or your backup PF, even play some C in a pinch.

As far as the shooting goes, I would like to think (in a perfect world) the players on our team improve. Garland puts up more volume, Windler comes back healthy and is a flamethrower, Love stays healthy and shoots his 37+%, Okoro improves to a respectable number in his 2nd year, ect, ect. We have guys who can make 3s at a good percentage--the problem is we dont have guys who shoot in volume. Thats where Garland taking that step to 9-10 per game and Love hopefully being healthy taking his 7-9 per game could help boost those team numbers a bit.

Sure seems we all agree the Cavs need to improve their shooting and floor spacing, but the free-agent options weren't all that great to begin with and they're only getting worse.

For instance I wouldn't have minded seeing us sign Otto Porter, but the odds of him being healthy and productive through a season aren't particularly high. Given we have players under contract and we should have simple luxuries this season such as training camp, practice time, and an experienced PG on the roster ... we might take a closer look at what we think we have before spending all our remaining cap space on a bandaid.

If there was a move that solidified our starting lineup for years to come? That'd be great, but it's a reach to even conclude we're just one move away from finding that core. When the P&D Cavs traded for Nance Sr, at least they had good reason to believe he was the last piece they needed - that turned out wrong - but we can't even begin to pretend we're one player away from being the top team in the East.

The only way the Cavs can find value via free-agency is to either wait for LeBron to want to come back, or wait for the music to stop playing and see who's left without a chair.

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

I'd argue the NBA is becoming a dumpster fire, and if players aren't willing to honor a contract they sign, then the league needs to stop handing them out and switch to at-will employment.

Congrats to Kevin Love? He's doing a great job convincing us all we'd be better off paying him $60M to just go away. Maybe he'll show up to training camp in a fat suit? Or suffer a particularly painful hang-nail? I can't wait for his next move...

But however you want to slice it, there's no value for the Cavs in free-agency. Even Larry Hughes didn't really want to sign with us, he was just mad that the Wizards wouldn't pay him the same as Arenas and Jamison and made him go shop.

[LivingLegend]

Sure seems we all agree the Cavs need to improve their shooting and floor spacing, but the free-agent options weren't all that great to begin with and they're only getting worse.

For instance I wouldn't have minded seeing us sign Otto Porter, but the odds of him being healthy and productive through a season aren't particularly high. Given we have players under contract and we should have simple luxuries this season such as training camp, practice time, and an experienced PG on the roster ... we might take a closer look at what we think we have before spending all our remaining cap space on a bandaid.

If there was a move that solidified our starting lineup for years to come? That'd be great, but it's a reach to even conclude we're just one move away from finding that core. When the P&D Cavs traded for Nance Sr, at least they had good reason to believe he was the last piece they needed - that turned out wrong - but we can't even begin to pretend we're one player away from being the top team in the East.

The only way the Cavs can find value via free-agency is to either wait for LeBron to want to come back, or wait for the music to stop playing and see who's left without a chair.

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

I'd argue the NBA is becoming a dumpster fire, and if players aren't willing to honor a contract they sign, then the league needs to stop handing them out and switch to at-will employment.

Congrats to Kevin Love? He's doing a great job convincing us all we'd be better off paying him $60M to just go away. Maybe he'll show up to training camp in a fat suit? Or suffer a particularly painful hang-nail? I can't wait for his next move...

But however you want to slice it, there's no value for the Cavs in free-agency. Even Larry Hughes didn't really want to sign with us, he was just mad that the Wizards wouldn't pay him the same as Arenas and Jamison and made him go shop.

The Cavs really are working with 3 things against them.

1) Its Cleveland, no veteran wants to come here unless that #23 guy is here
2) The front office has been a dumpster fire, and veterans know that
3) The Cavs are not a good team

However, there is no prblem in the NBA that money cannot fix. We have to either get better so veteran Free Agents want to join a playoff roster with young exciting pieces ala Atlanta Hawks 2020 or overpay everyone like Danny Green by giving him the full MLE.

I would just like to see the Cavs have a pulse. Even if that means a overpay for a veteran that fills a need. Give Danny Green the full MLE for all I care.

[toooskies]

Sure seems we all agree the Cavs need to improve their shooting and floor spacing, but the free-agent options weren't all that great to begin with and they're only getting worse.

For instance I wouldn't have minded seeing us sign Otto Porter, but the odds of him being healthy and productive through a season aren't particularly high. Given we have players under contract and we should have simple luxuries this season such as training camp, practice time, and an experienced PG on the roster ... we might take a closer look at what we think we have before spending all our remaining cap space on a bandaid.

If there was a move that solidified our starting lineup for years to come? That'd be great, but it's a reach to even conclude we're just one move away from finding that core. When the P&D Cavs traded for Nance Sr, at least they had good reason to believe he was the last piece they needed - that turned out wrong - but we can't even begin to pretend we're one player away from being the top team in the East.

The only way the Cavs can find value via free-agency is to either wait for LeBron to want to come back, or wait for the music to stop playing and see who's left without a chair.

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

They gave Love a contract more than he was worth, they bought out Drummond after they couldn't trade him, and when JR was a disruption they let him stay at home collecting paychecks. How exactly have they done those veterans wrong? Because they didn't give them minutes they didn't deserve, that they didn't sculpt the roster to them when they aren't those types of players?

The only real black eye the Cavs have had in dealing with veterans was "The Letter" after the equally bad PR move of "The Decision". Outside of Beilein's slugs/thugs obv but that's more on the former coach than the org itself.

We're headed for the 4th year in a row where a rookie is going to start for this team and in terms of basketball ability it's clear that Sexton, Garland, and Okoro didn't deserve starting jobs. JR Smith knew that and blew up about it, and pretty much lost his livelihood (though what he had left in the tank is arguable). Drummond was actually playing good basketball for the Cavs until the Cavs traded for his young replacement-- destroyed his career and now he's trying to rehab his image on a minimum contract. Love isn't going to start over Mobley even if he's 100% and Mobley looks like Anthony Bennett. Cedi wasn't even old, despite his career being somewhat stagnant, before he was benched for a raw rookie playing out of position.

If you're a veteran and join Cleveland, at the very least you know you aren't the priority. Cleveland went into the offseason with a "core four" and a fifth added to it with Mobley. If you outplay one of those guys, are you getting a starting job? Nope. Is Windler gonna get minutes just to evaluate him over you? Probably. So why bother unless you're already transitioning to a future coaching career? Particularly if you've already had a lucrative multi-year contract before this offseason.

[Revenged25]

So replying to your post to Jon as well.

Point 1) That's because the Cavs have been rebuilding, are bad because of it, and definitely isn't a destination like NY so yeah, we don't get the FAs. That's how it is for small markets. You either have a great talent/championship contender or you don't get FAs, even then you normally need to trade for them.

Point 2) The FO has made some horrible decisions, no question. But so has the Lakers, Knicks, Clippers, etc. This is something where the perception can be changed.

Point 3) Yes, they've been rebuilding. The had a team built to support the talents of one of the best players ever and trying to make that roster work without him is impossible. They've been slowly shedding the players meant to highlight LeBron's talents and gathering young talent that they can develop and figure out what will work in a rebuild. I think Mobley was the final piece they really needed and this year you'll see a huge improvement even with roster as is.

Now in regards to your post to me.

What veteran PG was so good that it was worth slowing down the development of Sexton or Garland by giving them the most minutes possible in the starting line-up? Every single PG that those 2 took minutes for were already on the way to being bench players on anything resembling a good team, which they all did. The Cavs didn't ruin their careers, they just weren't up to snuff.

Okoro didn't ruin Osman's career. Osman did that on his own. Do you really think if Osman was a 5th starter/bench player to begin with they would've selected Okoro instead of someone else? Do you really think Drummond's career was "tanked" by the Cavs because they traded for Allen? No, Drummond's career was "tanked" by Drummond reverting from playing good basketball to being a selfish empty stat guy. Even after his blowup with the Cavs and they basically just cut him considering what he gave up in salary, he could've easily rehabbed his value with the Lakers, but he didn't because he still decided to play selfish basketball. That's not on the Cavs that's on Drummond being a weak-minded player. Now your argument about Love, that's the funniest one yet since he's not going to be 100% and even when it looked like he might've been 100% to start last season, the dude was out after like 6 games for the majority of the season. No one is going to feel sorry, including other vets, that a player that can't stay healthy got passed over by a super high draft pick. I mean even if Love was healthy, why does it matter if he doesn't start, the dude is still making 60 million over the next 2 years and whether he started or not he wasn't going to play himself into another big contract regardless. His best way to actually earn himself a decent contract after this one is by shutting up, not throwing tantrums because he's never healthy so teammates have no synergy with him, proving he can play the majority of a season giving 24-28 minutes a game with good production.

Also do you really think any actual top flight FAs that people want us to go after and sign would give a damn about trampling on the vets that are currently on the roster that are worse than them? No, they want to win and get paid. Right now, if the Cavs had the cap space, all they could really offer is paying them but the team still needs to be fleshed out to give them winning as well.

[jbk1234]

Washington has too many wings after the Westbrook trade, they're a potential trade partner too. Beal/KCP/Kuzma/Bertans/Kispert/Avdija. Might be able to pry one or two of them away in the Westbrook trade.

The question is what the Cavs are trading, and at this point it's either Sexton, Garland, or Nance as salary there for the vets unless you're sending picks to swap Love for Bertans.

Yeah, that's an awful idea. I'm not paying the price to get Beal. Kuzma and KCP are replacement level guys (and KCP is significantly overpaid). Bertans is an overpaid stretch 4 who can't stay on the floor when his shot isn't falling. Neither Avidija nor Kispert have shown they're even replacement level players in the NBA.

I think we should trade Sexton, and there's no combination of the Wizards players, outside of Beal, I'd move him for.

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[jbk1234]

Oh I agree, I just think trading Nance and everything he brings to this team in favor of a 3pt specialist would be a step in the wrong direction. Nance simply does too much for this team with his swiss army knife play style that he practically 2 players in 1 because of his versatility. He can be a backup SF in a big linup or your backup PF, even play some C in a pinch.

As far as the shooting goes, I would like to think (in a perfect world) the players on our team improve. Garland puts up more volume, Windler comes back healthy and is a flamethrower, Love stays healthy and shoots his 37+%, Okoro improves to a respectable number in his 2nd year, ect, ect. We have guys who can make 3s at a good percentage--the problem is we dont have guys who shoot in volume. Thats where Garland taking that step to 9-10 per game and Love hopefully being healthy taking his 7-9 per game could help boost those team numbers a bit.

Sure seems we all agree the Cavs need to improve their shooting and floor spacing, but the free-agent options weren't all that great to begin with and they're only getting worse.

For instance I wouldn't have minded seeing us sign Otto Porter, but the odds of him being healthy and productive through a season aren't particularly high. Given we have players under contract and we should have simple luxuries this season such as training camp, practice time, and an experienced PG on the roster ... we might take a closer look at what we think we have before spending all our remaining cap space on a bandaid.

If there was a move that solidified our starting lineup for years to come? That'd be great, but it's a reach to even conclude we're just one move away from finding that core. When the P&D Cavs traded for Nance Sr, at least they had good reason to believe he was the last piece they needed - that turned out wrong - but we can't even begin to pretend we're one player away from being the top team in the East.

The only way the Cavs can find value via free-agency is to either wait for LeBron to want to come back, or wait for the music to stop playing and see who's left without a chair.

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

Drummond declined an extension offer the Cavs were foolish to offer, refused to come off the bench, his agent interfered with trade attempts to teams who were a much better fit than the Lakers, and now dude is playing on the minimum.

The Cavs have their faults, but he's an idiot.

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[Harper4Ferry?]

The major mathematical problem with trading Love is that Chris Paul and the union leadership, etc, have managed to destroy the middle class of NBA salaries. Basically it's guys making extraordinary amounts -or- it's guys making around the MLE/slightly more. And then it's a bunch of ring chaser guys playing for at/near the minimum. Andre Drummond is significantly flawed and still should be making 15million a year or so as he passes for starter class at his position.

What if we got Tobias Harris for Love/Sexton/some other piece? That seems like the best we could do tbh. Or it's Bertans and other flotsom.

[Revenged25]

Yeah if Drummond would've accepted the extension the Cavs offered him I'm pretty sure they never would've traded for Allen

[Revenged25]

The major mathematical problem with trading Love is that Chris Paul and the union leadership, etc, have managed to destroy the middle class of NBA salaries. Basically it's guys making extraordinary amounts -or- it's guys making around the MLE/slightly more. And then it's a bunch of ring chaser guys playing for at/near the minimum. Andre Drummond is significantly flawed and still should be making 15million a year or so as he passes for starter class at his position.

What if we got Tobias Harris for Love/Sexton/some other piece? That seems like the best we could do tbh. Or it's Bertans and other flotsom.

That seems like a significant downgrade. For all of Sexton's flaws he's still better than Harris IMO. If you're going to trade Sexton, don't attach Love and decrease his value that much.

[jbk1234]

No, the Cavs just need to stop being a dumpster fire of an organization. Everyone saw what happened with Drummond, what's happening with Love, what happened with JR Smith, etc. The Cavs have done a lot of veteran guys wrong in the relatively recent past.

They gave Love a contract more than he was worth, they bought out Drummond after they couldn't trade him, and when JR was a disruption they let him stay at home collecting paychecks. How exactly have they done those veterans wrong? Because they didn't give them minutes they didn't deserve, that they didn't sculpt the roster to them when they aren't those types of players?

The only real black eye the Cavs have had in dealing with veterans was "The Letter" after the equally bad PR move of "The Decision". Outside of Beilein's slugs/thugs obv but that's more on the former coach than the org itself.

We're headed for the 4th year in a row where a rookie is going to start for this team and in terms of basketball ability it's clear that Sexton, Garland, and Okoro didn't deserve starting jobs. JR Smith knew that and blew up about it, and pretty much lost his livelihood (though what he had left in the tank is arguable). Drummond was actually playing good basketball for the Cavs until the Cavs traded for his young replacement-- destroyed his career and now he's trying to rehab his image on a minimum contract. Love isn't going to start over Mobley even if he's 100% and Mobley looks like Anthony Bennett. Cedi wasn't even old, despite his career being somewhat stagnant, before he was benched for a raw rookie playing out of position.

If you're a veteran and join Cleveland, at the very least you know you aren't the priority. Cleveland went into the offseason with a "core four" and a fifth added to it with Mobley. If you outplay one of those guys, are you getting a starting job? Nope. Is Windler gonna get minutes just to evaluate him over you? Probably. So why bother unless you're already transitioning to a future coaching career? Particularly if you've already had a lucrative multi-year contract before this offseason.

The Cavs resurrected JR's career. He was on his way to China before we traded for him.

Love is probably one of the highest paid players in NBA history if you go by games actually played.

Drummond is an idiot. See the prior post.

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[KuruptedCav]

What are the odds that Mobley is the one playing some SF? He’s a bit leaner than when Kevin Garnett was drafted, and Garnett played the first few years at SF…


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[LivingLegend]

What are the odds that Mobley is the one playing some SF? He’s a bit leaner than when Kevin Garnett was drafted, and Garnett played the first few years at SF…


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I dobt see why he couldn't at times. He has the athletic ability to move on the perimeter.















Did we sign anybody yet?

[Wisedude]

From all indications, the Cavs are in talks with Kevin Love on a buyout. Kemba Walker had 2 years remaining on more money and he was bought out by OKC. So there is some precedent. I'm sure the Cavs know how much Walker got bought out for on a larger contract and using that as a yardstick.

[LivingLegend]

From all indications, the Cavs are in talks with Kevin Love on a buyout. Kemba Walker had 2 years remaining on more money and he was bought out by OKC. So there is some precedent. I'm sure the Cavs know how much Walker got bought out for on a larger contract and using that as a yardstick.

Yeah, there is hope now. Kemba was actually owed 6-8m more than Love is over his last 2 years.

I'm sure interested in what that number was he was bought out for.

[Wisedude]

Also, the Cavs are looking for a 3rd point guard. Elfrid Payton is there and would be a good pick up if both sides could agree. Hartenstein the Great is still out there too for the backup Center position. Maybe he should have picked up his player option and overplayed his hand.

[jbk1234]

From all indications, the Cavs are in talks with Kevin Love on a buyout. Kemba Walker had 2 years remaining on more money and he was bought out by OKC. So there is some precedent. I'm sure the Cavs know how much Walker got bought out for on a larger contract and using that as a yardstick.

Do you have a source for this? Because I can't think of a team dumb enough to pay Love $6-8M.

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[LivingLegend]

From all indications, the Cavs are in talks with Kevin Love on a buyout. Kemba Walker had 2 years remaining on more money and he was bought out by OKC. So there is some precedent. I'm sure the Cavs know how much Walker got bought out for on a larger contract and using that as a yardstick.

Do you have a source for this? Because I can't think of a team dumb enough to pay Love $6-8M.

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The difference is Kevin Love is owed $59M and Kemba was owed $73M over the same amount of time.

If OKC can figure out how to buy out 73 the Cavs can figure out how to buy out 59.

I'm sure if bought out, there would be a few teams contenders that would throw a couple million at Love to be a 4th or 5th option.

[jbk1234]

From all indications, the Cavs are in talks with Kevin Love on a buyout. Kemba Walker had 2 years remaining on more money and he was bought out by OKC. So there is some precedent. I'm sure the Cavs know how much Walker got bought out for on a larger contract and using that as a yardstick.

Do you have a source for this? Because I can't think of a team dumb enough to pay Love $6-8M.

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The difference is Kevin Love is owed $59M and Kemba was owed $73M over the same amount of time.

If OKC can figure out how to buy out 73 the Cavs can figure out how to buy out 59.

I'm sure if bought out, there would be a few teams contenders that would throw a couple million at Love to be a 4th or 5th option.

At this point, I think the Cavs would rather have his shooting off the bench than the minimal cap savings. Now after the trade deadline, when they've already paid Love a majority of his salary for this year, if he's willing to give back like $10M going forward, then it makes more sense for both parties.

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[toooskies]

They gave Love a contract more than he was worth, they bought out Drummond after they couldn't trade him, and when JR was a disruption they let him stay at home collecting paychecks. How exactly have they done those veterans wrong? Because they didn't give them minutes they didn't deserve, that they didn't sculpt the roster to them when they aren't those types of players?

The only real black eye the Cavs have had in dealing with veterans was "The Letter" after the equally bad PR move of "The Decision". Outside of Beilein's slugs/thugs obv but that's more on the former coach than the org itself.

We're headed for the 4th year in a row where a rookie is going to start for this team and in terms of basketball ability it's clear that Sexton, Garland, and Okoro didn't deserve starting jobs. JR Smith knew that and blew up about it, and pretty much lost his livelihood (though what he had left in the tank is arguable). Drummond was actually playing good basketball for the Cavs until the Cavs traded for his young replacement-- destroyed his career and now he's trying to rehab his image on a minimum contract. Love isn't going to start over Mobley even if he's 100% and Mobley looks like Anthony Bennett. Cedi wasn't even old, despite his career being somewhat stagnant, before he was benched for a raw rookie playing out of position.

If you're a veteran and join Cleveland, at the very least you know you aren't the priority. Cleveland went into the offseason with a "core four" and a fifth added to it with Mobley. If you outplay one of those guys, are you getting a starting job? Nope. Is Windler gonna get minutes just to evaluate him over you? Probably. So why bother unless you're already transitioning to a future coaching career? Particularly if you've already had a lucrative multi-year contract before this offseason.

The Cavs resurrected JR's career. He was on his way to China before we traded for him.

Love is probably one of the highest paid players in NBA history if you go by games actually played.

Drummond is an idiot. See the prior post.

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From a team perspective and fan perspective and an objective perspective, I agree with you. (Well, the Cavs didn't really want to resurrect JR Smith's career, that was Lebron's decision.) But from the perspective of an NBA veteran, or that veteran's agent? There's no reason to believe the Cavs are going to do the best thing for your career or next paycheck because there's been enough recent examples of them doing the opposite.

Whereas you know Leon Rose and Thibodeau in NY, are catering to veterans to the degree that their young guys (besides Barrett) are probably not getting enough run. The Knicks aren't giving Quickley minutes over Rose or Bledsoe. Knox is pretty much out of the rotation. Barrett is starting based on merit.

And you know the Lakers will play you based on performance, not based on whether THT needs more developmental minutes.

And you know the Bucks are invested in winning now-- they don't have the draft picks to even bring in guys to develop.

And you know the bottoming-out Spurs will play the best guys and stay committed to them, even if that's only going to be a .500 team. Positive culture even with middling results.

The Cavs? They have a core of five young guys this GM drafted/acquired that they're going to start and won't want to move. Those five and local guy Larry Nance are the only contracts you can be sure they want to keep around. They churn veterans through their roster like crazy (see: McGee, Prince, Exum, Clarkson, Knight, etc.), so even if you do agree to be "veteran leadership", you're probably still expendable and likely to be somewhere else in two years, particularly if the team doesn't do well (which they probably won't if they continue to make development-over-winning decisions).