2021-22 regular season thread

[toooskies]

29 teams didn't draft KPJ in the first place, pretty much all of them would have dumped him even sooner than the Cavs did, only Houston was willing to give him a second chance if it meant giving up nothing.

Gotta stop bemoaning this stuff.

Unless you'd prefer the Cavs just not take risks.

btw, not everyone wants to get rid of Sexton, but given he's due an extension and he hasn't grown any taller it's time to figure out if the team and Collin are on the same page regarding his projection and value, and if we're not (we aren't) then we have to consider alternatives to letting him walk in a year as a free-agent.

With the Knicks loading up on PG's and players the Cavs would probably not want back in a trade and the Heat bringing in Lowry and losing some of those non-guaranteed contracts ... it's looking more and more like Collin is going to be around for awhile.

Otoh, the Cavs have been very quiet, so perhaps you should be worried. lol

Seriously, height isn't everything as even though Booker is 6'5 he's just as bad defensively as Sexton and needs to be hidden as well, which is why they put Rubio and then CP3 next to him. Sexton has slowly but steadily been improving his defense and his passing since he came into the league while also becoming a much better scorer. He's not a finished project yet, he's improved each year on his weaknesses and strengths. Granted improving his weaknesses has seemed to be more of the slow and steady progress in regards to defense/passing while his improvements on offense have improved at a faster rate. That might be due to how the various coaching staffs have tried to focus the roles of Garland and Sexton, not to mention the last of consistency in schemes/teammate's health which can affect how well defense and passing improve while offense doesn't really rely anything else than your own ability.

I think if the Cavs are healthy, we might see a strong offensive and defensive team like we saw to start the year that can be ridden through the entire season. I mean early on with everyone healthy even Sexton looked adequate defensively, but once everyone started going down it went to crap for everyone except Okoro/Allen really.

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

[jbk1234]

Seriously, height isn't everything as even though Booker is 6'5 he's just as bad defensively as Sexton and needs to be hidden as well, which is why they put Rubio and then CP3 next to him. Sexton has slowly but steadily been improving his defense and his passing since he came into the league while also becoming a much better scorer. He's not a finished project yet, he's improved each year on his weaknesses and strengths. Granted improving his weaknesses has seemed to be more of the slow and steady progress in regards to defense/passing while his improvements on offense have improved at a faster rate. That might be due to how the various coaching staffs have tried to focus the roles of Garland and Sexton, not to mention the last of consistency in schemes/teammate's health which can affect how well defense and passing improve while offense doesn't really rely anything else than your own ability.

I think if the Cavs are healthy, we might see a strong offensive and defensive team like we saw to start the year that can be ridden through the entire season. I mean early on with everyone healthy even Sexton looked adequate defensively, but once everyone started going down it went to crap for everyone except Okoro/Allen really.

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

If the Cavs give him a max deal, that would actually set the franchise back for 5 years. It's not even clear he's a net positive player as a starter. It's all so absurd I can't believe that a max extension is a subject people think is a debatable.


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[Revenged25]

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

If the Cavs give him a max deal, that would actually set the franchise back for 5 years. It's not even clear he's a net positive player as a starter. It's all so absurd I can't believe that a max extension is a subject people think is a debatable.


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Well that decision doesn't need to be made till next off-season when we'll find out if he continued to improve and if he's a net positive player or not. But to be fair, Devin Booker was a major unknown after 3 years as well, heck even 4 years there were still questions if he was an empty stat guy or not.

[LivingLegend]

Seriously, height isn't everything as even though Booker is 6'5 he's just as bad defensively as Sexton and needs to be hidden as well, which is why they put Rubio and then CP3 next to him. Sexton has slowly but steadily been improving his defense and his passing since he came into the league while also becoming a much better scorer. He's not a finished project yet, he's improved each year on his weaknesses and strengths. Granted improving his weaknesses has seemed to be more of the slow and steady progress in regards to defense/passing while his improvements on offense have improved at a faster rate. That might be due to how the various coaching staffs have tried to focus the roles of Garland and Sexton, not to mention the last of consistency in schemes/teammate's health which can affect how well defense and passing improve while offense doesn't really rely anything else than your own ability.

I think if the Cavs are healthy, we might see a strong offensive and defensive team like we saw to start the year that can be ridden through the entire season. I mean early on with everyone healthy even Sexton looked adequate defensively, but once everyone started going down it went to crap for everyone except Okoro/Allen really.

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

[LivingLegend]

UPDATE: Oubre and Winslow are now off the market too.

Sooooo I think all that is left to be had in a trade or S&T that Fedor mentioned are Bojan/Ingles/Hart.

Talking about waiting till the last min. The SG/SF market is officially a baron wasteland of nothing.

[toooskies]

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

Didn’t bring up Sexton’s contract, nor do I want to have that argument. Im just saying you can’t even tell whether Sexton’s actually impacting winning when he’s playing out of position half the time because he’s the backup PG, and his passing options are to Brodric Thomas or Kabengele. The quality of the team is practically forcing him into the bad habits he is most criticized for.

[LivingLegend]

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

Didn’t bring up Sexton’s contract, nor do I want to have that argument. Im just saying you can’t even tell whether Sexton’s actually impacting winning when he’s playing out of position half the time because he’s the backup PG, and his passing options are to Brodric Thomas or Kabengele. The quality of the team is practically forcing him into the bad habits he is most criticized for.

That might be true, or we can look at it as Collin Sexton has been the #1 option on this team for 3 years now and the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA over that time. I know surrounding talent is a issue, but if Sexton is as good as people think he is--the Cavs would no have finished with the leagues worst Win% for the past 3 years.

[Revenged25]

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

Good thing we get to see if Sexton improves this year again before we have to commit to giving him an extension. I agree, if we extend him now, then he needs between 20-25/mil year max based on what other scorers got this off-season, but if we wait then we will most likely have to match a max offer or hope to get something in a S&T if he puts up a similar performance next year.

[jbk1234]

Still surprised we're on Sexton "causes a team more problems than he solves" without taking into account all the drama at C, the injuries at PF, the incompetence at SF, and the depth at guard and the wing. Disasters all around him that only a really rare player would single-handedly overcome in their third year playing in the league.

And we're now set up to fail next year too as an injury to anyone besides a PF is going to be replaced by a replacement-level player in the rotation or someone playing out of position at best.

If the Cavs give him a max deal, that would actually set the franchise back for 5 years. It's not even clear he's a net positive player as a starter. It's all so absurd I can't believe that a max extension is a subject people think is a debatable.


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Well that decision doesn't need to be made till next off-season when we'll find out if he continued to improve and if he's a net positive player or not. But to be fair, Devin Booker was a major unknown after 3 years as well, heck even 4 years there were still questions if he was an empty stat guy or not.

You see Booker as a comparable player. I don't for reasons I've repeatedly pointed out.

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[Stillwater]

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

Didn’t bring up Sexton’s contract, nor do I want to have that argument. Im just saying you can’t even tell whether Sexton’s actually impacting winning when he’s playing out of position half the time because he’s the backup PG, and his passing options are to Brodric Thomas or Kabengele. The quality of the team is practically forcing him into the bad habits he is most criticized for.

That might be true, or we can look at it as Collin Sexton has been the #1 option on this team for 3 years now and the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA over that time. I know surrounding talent is a issue, but if Sexton is as good as people think he is--the Cavs would no have finished with the leagues worst Win% for the past 3 years.

This is the kind of narrow minded **** that makes me not want to be on here much anymore.
Cut the kid some slack already, if you honestly think the team was good enough without Sexton to win more games is his absence I don't know what to tell you. They were not. They were never winning more than 5 ,more games with that **** roster and injuries if any all star caliber guard was playing instead of Sexton. Do you really think if it was Lavine or Beal it makes much difference if you do that's on you because it wouldn't have.

[Revenged25]

Paying A-level money to a B-level player is not how you construct a sustainable winner in the future. Its how you wind up where the Cavs currently are with Love begging to get out of it.

Sexton we have agreed is not a bad player--but he is also nowhere even close to being good enough for a Max.

If Jarrett Allen is worth 5/100, I would be comfortable paying Sexton 4/78. Same contract a guy like Evan Fournier got.

If you pay Sexton over 100M and he doesnt improve at all, that contract will be immovable like Love is.

Didn’t bring up Sexton’s contract, nor do I want to have that argument. Im just saying you can’t even tell whether Sexton’s actually impacting winning when he’s playing out of position half the time because he’s the backup PG, and his passing options are to Brodric Thomas or Kabengele. The quality of the team is practically forcing him into the bad habits he is most criticized for.

That might be true, or we can look at it as Collin Sexton has been the #1 option on this team for 3 years now and the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA over that time. I know surrounding talent is a issue, but if Sexton is as good as people think he is--the Cavs would no have finished with the leagues worst Win% for the past 3 years.

Devin Booker was the #1 option for 4 years with the Suns and they had the worst record in the NBA. He was in the NBA Finals this year if you didn't know.

[jbk1234]

Didn’t bring up Sexton’s contract, nor do I want to have that argument. Im just saying you can’t even tell whether Sexton’s actually impacting winning when he’s playing out of position half the time because he’s the backup PG, and his passing options are to Brodric Thomas or Kabengele. The quality of the team is practically forcing him into the bad habits he is most criticized for.

That might be true, or we can look at it as Collin Sexton has been the #1 option on this team for 3 years now and the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA over that time. I know surrounding talent is a issue, but if Sexton is as good as people think he is--the Cavs would no have finished with the leagues worst Win% for the past 3 years.

Devin Booker was the #1 option for 4 years with the Suns and they had the worst record in the NBA. He was in the NBA Finals this year if you didn't know.

Devin Booker is a 6'5 shooter. He drags defenders away from the paint. Sexton is a 6'1, maybe, and he takes 75% of his shots in the paint. They're far more dissimilar than they are similar.

If your *best player* misses games in March, and you have no legitimate backup SG on the roster, your team's performance should plummet. In terms of net differential, we weren't any worse. That's not a guy you give a bunch of money to.

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[JonFromVA]

Seriously, height isn't everything as even though Booker is 6'5 he's just as bad defensively as Sexton and needs to be hidden as well, which is why they put Rubio and then CP3 next to him. Sexton has slowly but steadily been improving his defense and his passing since he came into the league while also becoming a much better scorer. He's not a finished project yet, he's improved each year on his weaknesses and strengths. Granted improving his weaknesses has seemed to be more of the slow and steady progress in regards to defense/passing while his improvements on offense have improved at a faster rate. That might be due to how the various coaching staffs have tried to focus the roles of Garland and Sexton, not to mention the last of consistency in schemes/teammate's health which can affect how well defense and passing improve while offense doesn't really rely anything else than your own ability.

I think if the Cavs are healthy, we might see a strong offensive and defensive team like we saw to start the year that can be ridden through the entire season. I mean early on with everyone healthy even Sexton looked adequate defensively, but once everyone started going down it went to crap for everyone except Okoro/Allen really.

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so he we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

The thing is, Sexton isn't why the Cavs aren't winning. Just like it's Booker wasn't the reason the Suns weren't winning his first 4 seasons (even though they had better rosters than Cleveland has had), and Lavine isn't why Chicago isn't winning.

I mean how is Sexton not like Booker if he's like Lavine? Literally Booker's first 4 seasons he put up amazing offensive numbers and the Suns sucked. Then they got a competent coach and actually ensure the roster was balanced around him.

Also it could help if Sexton was 6'5, but Mitchell is just fine at 6'1 as well. Granted Mitchell went into a great situation with a great defensive scheme/players behind him when he got there so even if he got beat there is someone there to help him out, sort of how the Cavs were playing to start the year before injuries.

Also if the Cavs could get a Butler type trade for Sexton, then yeah I can understand taking it. But trading him for something less than that is just dumb, which is what a lot of people are proposing for Sexton. Like seriously Tyler Herro? That's a trade that would blow up in their face before the ink even dried.

Also I don't think the Cavs really tried to shop Sexton.

Unfortunately, there's a difference between what's possible and what is likely, and there's more to winning than just wins and losses.
For instance, the Suns have only been worse with Booker on the floor than off in his rookie season. They were near neutral (technically -0.8) one season, and +3.1 or better in 4 of his 6 seasons. The Suns only brought in a competent PG and coach for Booker these last two seasons. otoh, the Cavs reacted immediately to Collin's struggle by bringing in a PG and letting him play SG.

Collin's On-Off is improving season to season, but his track record so far is closer to that of LaVine or DeRozan than Booker.

So while Collin can and will continue to improve (as LaVine and DeRozan certainly did), we can't be sure where he will end up and whether he will ever be worth a max level contract.

But hey, more good news for you. We didn't trade Collin for Herro even when it might had gotten Love out of town too.

Fact is we have more time to figure out what to do with Collin and technically don't have to do a thing until someone has offered him a contract as a restricted free-agent ... that is as long as it doesn't blow up in our face.

Multiple sauces have reported the Cavs have been trying to trade Collin, and Collin and his agent may even be trying to get traded (and hence where some of these leaks are coming from). Why would they do that? To get Collin on a team that will invest in him, believe in him, build around him, and pay him the max obviously. A Knicks team with a window to trade for Collin then sign a max player was a perfect landing spot for him. The Knicks roster would have been in lock down, and they'd all but have to pay Collin or start bleeding talent.

But the Knicks weren't interested in giving up anything they actually needed for Collin.

If you want to deny all that ... fine ... but IMO Collin's market price has been set, and good luck finding a fan, a GM, a scout, or someone in the media that thinks somebody should trade more than scraps, loose pieces, and a late pick for him.

[Revenged25]

That might be true, or we can look at it as Collin Sexton has been the #1 option on this team for 3 years now and the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA over that time. I know surrounding talent is a issue, but if Sexton is as good as people think he is--the Cavs would no have finished with the leagues worst Win% for the past 3 years.

Devin Booker was the #1 option for 4 years with the Suns and they had the worst record in the NBA. He was in the NBA Finals this year if you didn't know.

Devin Booker is a 6'5 shooter. He drags defenders away from the paint. Sexton is a 6'1, maybe, and he takes 75% of his shots in the paint. They're far more dissimilar than they are similar.

If your *best player* misses games in March, and you have no legitimate backup SG on the roster, your team's performance should plummet. In terms of net differential, we weren't any worse. That's not a guy you give a bunch of money to.

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If you're using wins and losses as the barometer for a #1 option it really doesn't matter.

Also the team's performance did plummet. With Sexton the Cavs averaged 105 ppg, without him they averaged 98.3
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

In Garland's case they averaged 104.7 ppg with him and 100 ppg without him.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021

So the team took a bigger dip without Sexton, but I guess it seems the Cavs need both of them.

[JonFromVA]

Devin Booker was the #1 option for 4 years with the Suns and they had the worst record in the NBA. He was in the NBA Finals this year if you didn't know.

Devin Booker is a 6'5 shooter. He drags defenders away from the paint. Sexton is a 6'1, maybe, and he takes 75% of his shots in the paint. They're far more dissimilar than they are similar.

If your *best player* misses games in March, and you have no legitimate backup SG on the roster, your team's performance should plummet. In terms of net differential, we weren't any worse. That's not a guy you give a bunch of money to.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

If you're using wins and losses as the barometer for a #1 option it really doesn't matter.

Also the team's performance did plummet. With Sexton the Cavs averaged 105 ppg, without him they averaged 98.3
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

In Garland's case they averaged 104.7 ppg with him and 100 ppg without him.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021

So the team took a bigger dip without Sexton, but I guess it seems the Cavs need both of them.

That's not the correct statistical approach ... you need to look at points per 100, and also look at what the Cavs gave up.

I don't think anyone argued that Collin doesn't increase the Cavs scoring.

[Revenged25]

If the Cavs were winning games and Collin was driving the offense with his 25ppg, he'd be getting paid, but we're not ... so he we are trying not to overpay a player who at the moment causes a team more problems than he solves.

So, it's a little more like the Zach LaVine situation who still hasn't won anything after putting up amazing offensive numbers.

The Bulls are still all in on Zach hoping they can find the magic formula to build a winner around him and convince him to re-sign ... but there's another way to look at it. What if the TWolves and Bulls have just wasted 7 years and $88M trying to get something out of Zach that just isn't going to happen?

I mean if there's any confusion about this, I really do believe we (and the Cavs) got their answer when they tried shopping him. Other teams see the dilemma and aren't very interested in giving up much to take on the potential risks and rewards.

Would it help if Collin was 6'5" like Zach is? Absolutely ... Zach was a big part in the Jimmy Butler trade in addition to the pick that became Lauri Markennen. If we could have traded our pick next year plus Collin for a SG/SF in his prime at the level of Jimmy Butler, we certainly would have done it. That's exactly the kind of deal the Cavs want, but it's simply not there for Collin.

At least not now ...

The thing is, Sexton isn't why the Cavs aren't winning. Just like it's Booker wasn't the reason the Suns weren't winning his first 4 seasons (even though they had better rosters than Cleveland has had), and Lavine isn't why Chicago isn't winning.

I mean how is Sexton not like Booker if he's like Lavine? Literally Booker's first 4 seasons he put up amazing offensive numbers and the Suns sucked. Then they got a competent coach and actually ensure the roster was balanced around him.

Also it could help if Sexton was 6'5, but Mitchell is just fine at 6'1 as well. Granted Mitchell went into a great situation with a great defensive scheme/players behind him when he got there so even if he got beat there is someone there to help him out, sort of how the Cavs were playing to start the year before injuries.

Also if the Cavs could get a Butler type trade for Sexton, then yeah I can understand taking it. But trading him for something less than that is just dumb, which is what a lot of people are proposing for Sexton. Like seriously Tyler Herro? That's a trade that would blow up in their face before the ink even dried.

Also I don't think the Cavs really tried to shop Sexton.

Unfortunately, there's a difference between what's possible and what is likely, and there's more to winning than just wins and losses.
For instance, the Suns have only been worse with Booker on the floor than off in his rookie season. They were near neutral (technically -0.8) one season, and +3.1 or better in 4 of his 6 seasons. The Suns only brought in a competent PG and coach for Booker these last two seasons. otoh, the Cavs reacted immediately to Collin's struggle by bringing in a PG and letting him play SG.

Collin's On-Off is improving season to season, but his track record so far is closer to that of LaVine or DeRozan than Booker.

So while Collin can and will continue to improve (as LaVine and DeRozan certainly did), we can't be sure where he will end up and whether he will ever be worth a max level contract.

But hey, more good news for you. We didn't trade Collin for Herro even when it might had gotten Love out of town too.

Fact is we have more time to figure out what to do with Collin and technically don't have to do a thing until someone has offered him a contract as a restricted free-agent ... that is as long as it doesn't blow up in our face.

Multiple sauces have reported the Cavs have been trying to trade Collin, and Collin and his agent may even be trying to get traded (and hence where some of these leaks are coming from). Why would they do that? To get Collin on a team that will invest in him, believe in him, build around him, and pay him the max obviously. A Knicks team with a window to trade for Collin then sign a max player was a perfect landing spot for him. The Knicks roster would have been in lock down, and they'd all but have to pay Collin or start bleeding talent.

But the Knicks weren't interested in giving up anything they actually needed for Collin.

If you want to deny all that ... fine ... but IMO Collin's market price has been set, and good luck finding a fan, a GM, a scout, or someone in the media that thinks somebody should trade more than scraps, loose pieces, and a late pick for him.

You realize that On/Off numbers are also affected by who a player is on the court with or not right and the situations a player is in. If Sexton is on the floor with a bunch of scrubs, which he often was, without any help vs another teams starters, but then he goes to the bench while the rest of the Cavs starters were on the court vs back-ups that's going to affect his On/Off numbers. God I wish we could get a better/easier breakdown of all these stats so we can get more detailed context in this.

Also there were reports that the Cavs were going to trade Larry Nance for cap space... like seriously. Also didn't all of those multiple sources cite basically the same speculation article. And the "very available" reports I'm doubting because if the Cavs were so desperate to trade him that he was "very available" he would've been moved for trash already. He wasn't "very available", they just weren't shutting down trade talks instantly when asked about him.

There were sources that said the Cavs were trying to trade Larry Nance for cap space... Just sayin.

[Revenged25]

Devin Booker is a 6'5 shooter. He drags defenders away from the paint. Sexton is a 6'1, maybe, and he takes 75% of his shots in the paint. They're far more dissimilar than they are similar.

If your *best player* misses games in March, and you have no legitimate backup SG on the roster, your team's performance should plummet. In terms of net differential, we weren't any worse. That's not a guy you give a bunch of money to.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

If you're using wins and losses as the barometer for a #1 option it really doesn't matter.

Also the team's performance did plummet. With Sexton the Cavs averaged 105 ppg, without him they averaged 98.3
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

In Garland's case they averaged 104.7 ppg with him and 100 ppg without him.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021

So the team took a bigger dip without Sexton, but I guess it seems the Cavs need both of them.

That's not the correct statistical approach ... you need to look at points per 100, and also look at what the Cavs gave up.

I don't think anyone argued that Collin doesn't increase the Cavs scoring.

So you want Points per 100:

Collin Sexton: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/points-per-100-possessions-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

Darius Garland: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/points-per-100-possessions-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021


Surprisingly it's about the same difference for both. Couldn't figure out how to get the defensive difference.

[JonFromVA]

The thing is, Sexton isn't why the Cavs aren't winning. Just like it's Booker wasn't the reason the Suns weren't winning his first 4 seasons (even though they had better rosters than Cleveland has had), and Lavine isn't why Chicago isn't winning.

I mean how is Sexton not like Booker if he's like Lavine? Literally Booker's first 4 seasons he put up amazing offensive numbers and the Suns sucked. Then they got a competent coach and actually ensure the roster was balanced around him.

Also it could help if Sexton was 6'5, but Mitchell is just fine at 6'1 as well. Granted Mitchell went into a great situation with a great defensive scheme/players behind him when he got there so even if he got beat there is someone there to help him out, sort of how the Cavs were playing to start the year before injuries.

Also if the Cavs could get a Butler type trade for Sexton, then yeah I can understand taking it. But trading him for something less than that is just dumb, which is what a lot of people are proposing for Sexton. Like seriously Tyler Herro? That's a trade that would blow up in their face before the ink even dried.

Also I don't think the Cavs really tried to shop Sexton.

Unfortunately, there's a difference between what's possible and what is likely, and there's more to winning than just wins and losses.
For instance, the Suns have only been worse with Booker on the floor than off in his rookie season. They were near neutral (technically -0.8) one season, and +3.1 or better in 4 of his 6 seasons. The Suns only brought in a competent PG and coach for Booker these last two seasons. otoh, the Cavs reacted immediately to Collin's struggle by bringing in a PG and letting him play SG.

Collin's On-Off is improving season to season, but his track record so far is closer to that of LaVine or DeRozan than Booker.

So while Collin can and will continue to improve (as LaVine and DeRozan certainly did), we can't be sure where he will end up and whether he will ever be worth a max level contract.

But hey, more good news for you. We didn't trade Collin for Herro even when it might had gotten Love out of town too.

Fact is we have more time to figure out what to do with Collin and technically don't have to do a thing until someone has offered him a contract as a restricted free-agent ... that is as long as it doesn't blow up in our face.

Multiple sauces have reported the Cavs have been trying to trade Collin, and Collin and his agent may even be trying to get traded (and hence where some of these leaks are coming from). Why would they do that? To get Collin on a team that will invest in him, believe in him, build around him, and pay him the max obviously. A Knicks team with a window to trade for Collin then sign a max player was a perfect landing spot for him. The Knicks roster would have been in lock down, and they'd all but have to pay Collin or start bleeding talent.

But the Knicks weren't interested in giving up anything they actually needed for Collin.

If you want to deny all that ... fine ... but IMO Collin's market price has been set, and good luck finding a fan, a GM, a scout, or someone in the media that thinks somebody should trade more than scraps, loose pieces, and a late pick for him.

You realize that On/Off numbers are also affected by who a player is on the court with or not right and the situations a player is in. If Sexton is on the floor with a bunch of scrubs, which he often was, without any help vs another teams starters, but then he goes to the bench while the rest of the Cavs starters were on the court vs back-ups that's going to affect his On/Off numbers. God I wish we could get a better/easier breakdown of all these stats so we can get more detailed context in this.

Also there were reports that the Cavs were going to trade Larry Nance for cap space... like seriously. Also didn't all of those multiple sources cite basically the same speculation article. And the "very available" reports I'm doubting because if the Cavs were so desperate to trade him that he was "very available" he would've been moved for trash already. He wasn't "very available", they just weren't shutting down trade talks instantly when asked about him.

There were sources that said the Cavs were trying to trade Larry Nance for cap space... Just sayin.

Yes, I understand perfectly well how on/off works, and there are sites with better breakdowns of these stats (ex: 82games.com, basketball-reference, etc), but they are especially messy this year due to all the injuries. Still we have two previous years. The thing is, look at the quality of the players behind Collin. If the backups are playing well and the starters are sucking that certainly says something. And we're not trying to determine if Collin can help us win, we're trying to determine if we should pay him like he's a star.

Well, there are other sources in the Cleveland sports scene. Some we laugh at, some we take seriously, and one of those serious sources has confirmed that the Cavs would like to trade Collin. That doesn't mean they want to do something stupid.

[JonFromVA]

If you're using wins and losses as the barometer for a #1 option it really doesn't matter.

Also the team's performance did plummet. With Sexton the Cavs averaged 105 ppg, without him they averaged 98.3
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

In Garland's case they averaged 104.7 ppg with him and 100 ppg without him.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/ppg-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021

So the team took a bigger dip without Sexton, but I guess it seems the Cavs need both of them.

That's not the correct statistical approach ... you need to look at points per 100, and also look at what the Cavs gave up.

I don't think anyone argued that Collin doesn't increase the Cavs scoring.

So you want Points per 100:

Collin Sexton: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/points-per-100-possessions-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-collin-sexton-in-2021

Darius Garland: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/points-per-100-possessions-by-the-cavs-with-and-without-darius-garland-in-2021


Surprisingly it's about the same difference for both. Couldn't figure out how to get the defensive difference.

Try 82games.com

[mcfly1204]

I look forward to seeing how we start of the season. Hopefully Sexton balls out, and we have a good problem on our hands for once.