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2021-22 regular season thread

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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#561 » by Stillwater » Sat Aug 7, 2021 10:51 pm

mcfly1204 wrote:I look forward to seeing how we start of the season. Hopefully Sexton balls out, and we have a good problem on our hands for once.

I think what needs to happen is DG has to be the man that makes a massive difference as a scorer than he has. If not he has to get to work on it in a hurry, I don't care how good of a playmaker he is... without defense and without scoring paired with a guard who is without consistent defense and without confidence in his teammates over himself enough to give it up, just is not enough to justify keeping them together.
I think the fact Sexton was not traded will prove he is more in their plans long term and it is DG who has to step up or he is the one that will get traded for a better fitting pairing with Sexton.
I want to see if DG can play some off ball with Okoro or Sexton driving to the paint more or the offense running through Mobley tbh it might be DG is better scoring in that situation where he has less responsibility to make plays.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#562 » by jbk1234 » Sat Aug 7, 2021 11:27 pm

Stillwater wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I look forward to seeing how we start of the season. Hopefully Sexton balls out, and we have a good problem on our hands for once.

I think what needs to happen is DG has to be the man that makes a massive difference as a scorer than he has. If not he has to get to work on it in a hurry, I don't care how good of a playmaker he is... without defense and without scoring paired with a guard who is without consistent defense and without confidence in his teammates over himself enough to give it up, just is not enough to justify keeping them together.
I think the fact Sexton was not traded will prove he is more in their plans long term and it is DG who has to step up or he is the one that will get traded for a better fitting pairing with Sexton.
I want to see if DG can play some off ball with Okoro or Sexton driving to the paint more or the offense running through Mobley tbh it might be DG is better scoring in that situation where he has less responsibility to make plays.
Yes, the guy who lead the team in usage and FGAs, AND who takes 75% of his shots in the paint, needs free rein to drive more. Meanwhile, the player who can actually run an offense, and who has better floor vision needs to learn how to play off ball, not that it would matter because Sexton won't pass it to him anyway.

This sounds like a great way to crater Garland's trade value before he straight up asks out. Maybe if we really try, we can triple down on this approach, insist that our seven foot center shoot threes instead of rolling to the hoop, make him angry, and destroy his trade value in the process.

Send them both off for a couple of mid firsts, max Sexton, post five more-20 win seasons, and complain that we need to get our *best player* more help. Also, we can write Mobley off as a bench player, when he only plays well sharing a court with Rubio, and trade him for scraps.

Or, we could not do that. We could say that Sexton has had more than a fair shot and we're going to attempt to run an actual NBA offense this season.

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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#563 » by mcfly1204 » Sat Aug 7, 2021 11:53 pm

I don't really understand all the negativity.
Well at least we're not Detroit!
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#564 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 12:50 am

mcfly1204 wrote:I don't really understand all the negativity.
We won 20 games 3 seasons in a row with him leading the team in FGAs. We finished dead last in made threes in the league last season. We finished second to last in opponents 3 point %. It's a function of math at this point. There's no solution offered by his stans, no explanation as to how we won't be a bad team again if his usage is that high and he starts again, only excuses.

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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#565 » by Stillwater » Sun Aug 8, 2021 1:03 am

jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I don't really understand all the negativity.
We won 20 games 3 seasons in a row with him leading the team in FGAs. We finished dead last in made threes in the league last season. We finished second to last in opponents 3 point %. It's a function of math at this point. There's no solution offered by his stans, no explanation as to how we won't be a bad team again if his usage is that high and he starts again, only excuses.

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lol we are gonna ? They are going to be a bad team anyway so if they can at least see if DG is useful off ball and therefore more versatile maybe he can be used in line ups where he doesn't need to be the main ball handler, because clearly Sexton and Okoro are better with the ball in their hands even though both of them esp Sexton has already shown he can at least score consistently playing secondary ball handler. The measure in which you use to scrutinize one players deficiencies as a playmaker is clearly not being used to scrutinize the deficiencies of the other as a scorer whom apparently you are self labelling a Stan of with these one stan vs another game.
It is not how you build a team...drafting 2 combo guards under 6'2 two seasons in a row, but one of them is much better at the object of the game...ball into hoop
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#566 » by LivingLegend » Sun Aug 8, 2021 1:34 am

jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I don't really understand all the negativity.
We won 20 games 3 seasons in a row with him leading the team in FGAs. We finished dead last in made threes in the league last season. We finished second to last in opponents 3 point %. It's a function of math at this point. There's no solution offered by his stans, no explanation as to how we won't be a bad team again if his usage is that high and he starts again, only excuses.

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I agree with this. Its only been 2-3 years and Im already exhausted running a two PG lineup. Its like your constantly fighting uphill and It needs to stop for the Cavs to have a shakeup and move forward.

Im tired of the arguing between Sexton/DG and Im tired of the FO pretending this is a viable way to build a team. Fix it or else the Cavs will never win more than 35 games. I dont really care what anybody thinks about either of the 2 players outside of the fact that as long as they are both starters next to eachother--it will not lead to wins. Thats kina where we are at until one of them is moved.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#567 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 1:42 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I don't really understand all the negativity.
We won 20 games 3 seasons in a row with him leading the team in FGAs. We finished dead last in made threes in the league last season. We finished second to last in opponents 3 point %. It's a function of math at this point. There's no solution offered by his stans, no explanation as to how we won't be a bad team again if his usage is that high and he starts again, only excuses.

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lol we are gonna ? They are going to be a bad team anyway so if they can at least see if DG is useful off ball and therefore more versatile maybe he can be used in line ups where he doesn't need to be the main ball handler, because clearly Sexton and Okoro are better with the ball in their hands even though both of them esp Sexton has already shown he can at least score consistently playing secondary ball handler. The measure in which you use to scrutinize one players deficiencies as a playmaker is clearly not being used to scrutinize the deficiencies of the other as a scorer whom apparently you are self labelling a Stan of with these one stan vs another game.
It is not how you build a team...drafting 2 combo guards under 6'2 two seasons in a row, but one of them is much better at the object of the game...ball into hoop
We are where we are. The question is where we go from here and how do we get there. Sexton should've been swapped for Herro if the Knicks wouldn't put Barrett on the table. I like Kobe Altman but he has a habit of holding onto players until their trade value has been severely damaged.

If the Cavs are dumb enough to not only start the season with Sexton on the roster, but start him and make him lead ball handler, then they should trade Garland now. Playing Garland off ball in order to hand the keys to Sexton is too stupid for words.

The problem with trading Garland of course is he's the best three point shooter left on the team and there's no follow up plan on how to build a winning team around Sexton as the main guy. Let's just suck again this year, pay Sexton, and maybe some theoretical perfect fit guard will fall to us in next year's draft.

Of course if that doesn't happen, there's still no realistic plan B next summer. No one is signing with a 20-win team lead by an undersized SG who is known for his selfish play, doesn't help space the floor, and is an abysmal defender. Sexton is almost certainly coming off the bench in NBA long-term and the main question is what road he takes to get there.

I'm tired of the Cavs being reactive instead of proactive in these situations.



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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#568 » by toooskies » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:44 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I look forward to seeing how we start of the season. Hopefully Sexton balls out, and we have a good problem on our hands for once.

I think what needs to happen is DG has to be the man that makes a massive difference as a scorer than he has. If not he has to get to work on it in a hurry, I don't care how good of a playmaker he is... without defense and without scoring paired with a guard who is without consistent defense and without confidence in his teammates over himself enough to give it up, just is not enough to justify keeping them together.
I think the fact Sexton was not traded will prove he is more in their plans long term and it is DG who has to step up or he is the one that will get traded for a better fitting pairing with Sexton.
I want to see if DG can play some off ball with Okoro or Sexton driving to the paint more or the offense running through Mobley tbh it might be DG is better scoring in that situation where he has less responsibility to make plays.
Yes, the guy who lead the team in usage and FGAs, AND who takes 75% of his shots in the paint, needs free rein to drive more. Meanwhile, the player who can actually run an offense, and who has better floor vision needs to learn how to play off ball, not that it would matter because Sexton won't pass it to him anyway.

This sounds like a great way to crater Garland's trade value before he straight up asks out. Maybe if we really try, we can triple down on this approach, insist that our seven foot center shoot threes instead of rolling to the hoop, make him angry, and destroy his trade value in the process.

Send them both off for a couple of mid firsts, max Sexton, post five more-20 win seasons, and complain that we need to get our *best player* more help. Also, we can write Mobley off as a bench player, when he only plays well sharing a court with Rubio, and trade him for scraps.

Or, we could not do that. We could say that Sexton has had more than a fair shot and we're going to attempt to run an actual NBA offense this season.

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Sexton took 52.4% of his shots within 10 feet last year. Garland was at 50.7%.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#569 » by LivingLegend » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:45 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:We won 20 games 3 seasons in a row with him leading the team in FGAs. We finished dead last in made threes in the league last season. We finished second to last in opponents 3 point %. It's a function of math at this point. There's no solution offered by his stans, no explanation as to how we won't be a bad team again if his usage is that high and he starts again, only excuses.

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lol we are gonna ? They are going to be a bad team anyway so if they can at least see if DG is useful off ball and therefore more versatile maybe he can be used in line ups where he doesn't need to be the main ball handler, because clearly Sexton and Okoro are better with the ball in their hands even though both of them esp Sexton has already shown he can at least score consistently playing secondary ball handler. The measure in which you use to scrutinize one players deficiencies as a playmaker is clearly not being used to scrutinize the deficiencies of the other as a scorer whom apparently you are self labelling a Stan of with these one stan vs another game.
It is not how you build a team...drafting 2 combo guards under 6'2 two seasons in a row, but one of them is much better at the object of the game...ball into hoop
We are where we are. The question is where we go from here and how do we get there. Sexton should've been swapped for Herro if the Knicks wouldn't put Barrett on the table. I like Kobe Altman but he has a habit of holding onto players until their trade value has been severely damaged.

If the Cavs are dumb enough to not only start the season with Sexton on the roster, but start him and make him lead ball handler, then they should trade Garland now. Playing Garland off ball in order to hand the keys to Sexton is too stupid for words.

The problem with trading Garland of course is he's the best three point shooter left on the team and there's no follow up plan on how to build a winning team around Sexton as the main guy. Let's just suck again this year, pay Sexton, and maybe some theoretical perfect fit guard will fall to us in next year's draft.

Of course if that doesn't happen, there's still no realistic plan B next summer. No one is signing with a 20-win team lead by an undersized SG who is known for his selfish play, doesn't help space the floor, and is an abysmal defender. Sexton is almost certainly coming off the bench in NBA long-term and the main question is what road he takes to get there.

I'm tired of the Cavs being reactive instead of proactive in these situations.



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Im not sure whats more annoying, holding onto a 2 PG lineup that will never work because they cant find a trade partner, or Kevin Love being a leech on this organization preventing them from being able to move on and sign good players.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#570 » by mcfly1204 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:45 am

I'm trying to look at it this way, would it be bad if we had our own version of Lillard and McCollum? It feels like Portland's ceiling has been due to an inability to surround their backcourt with talent. We have some promising pieces, I can't help but feel like we're in a decent position here.
Well at least we're not Detroit!
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#571 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:02 am

Markkanen, Schroeder, Hart still are out there. Not worried that much about positional fit at this point, but rather at upgrading the talent level of this team. Obviously trading Sexton, Osman, Nance or even Rubio could still happen.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#572 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:35 am

toooskies wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think what needs to happen is DG has to be the man that makes a massive difference as a scorer than he has. If not he has to get to work on it in a hurry, I don't care how good of a playmaker he is... without defense and without scoring paired with a guard who is without consistent defense and without confidence in his teammates over himself enough to give it up, just is not enough to justify keeping them together.
I think the fact Sexton was not traded will prove he is more in their plans long term and it is DG who has to step up or he is the one that will get traded for a better fitting pairing with Sexton.
I want to see if DG can play some off ball with Okoro or Sexton driving to the paint more or the offense running through Mobley tbh it might be DG is better scoring in that situation where he has less responsibility to make plays.
Yes, the guy who lead the team in usage and FGAs, AND who takes 75% of his shots in the paint, needs free rein to drive more. Meanwhile, the player who can actually run an offense, and who has better floor vision needs to learn how to play off ball, not that it would matter because Sexton won't pass it to him anyway.

This sounds like a great way to crater Garland's trade value before he straight up asks out. Maybe if we really try, we can triple down on this approach, insist that our seven foot center shoot threes instead of rolling to the hoop, make him angry, and destroy his trade value in the process.

Send them both off for a couple of mid firsts, max Sexton, post five more-20 win seasons, and complain that we need to get our *best player* more help. Also, we can write Mobley off as a bench player, when he only plays well sharing a court with Rubio, and trade him for scraps.

Or, we could not do that. We could say that Sexton has had more than a fair shot and we're going to attempt to run an actual NBA offense this season.

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Sexton took 52.4% of his shots within 10 feet last year. Garland was at 50.7%.
Less than 25% of Sexton's team-leading FGAs were from three point range. Also, a lot of his 6 FTAs come from him forcing action inside and those don't count towards FGAs. This doesn't include when he gets blocked down there or turns it over.

Unless you're bringing him off the bench, you need to build an entirely different team around him.

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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#573 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:38 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:Markkanen, Schroeder, Hart still are out there. Not worried that much about positional fit at this point, but rather at upgrading the talent level of this team. Obviously trading Sexton, Osman, Nance or even Rubio could still happen.
I'm skeptical that Lauri is better than Nance or Schroeder is better than Rubio from a talent perspective. Hart would be great but I think the Pelicans match if he's signed for the MLE.

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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#574 » by KuruptedCav » Sun Aug 8, 2021 1:14 pm

The scars of the Irving/Waiters pairing loom large. I suspect the conversation here would be different if the Cavs had been able to trade up for the more diminutive Bradley Beal.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=sextoco01&p1yrfrom=2019&p1yrto=2021&player_id2=bealbr01&p2yrfrom=2013&p2yrto=2015


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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#575 » by Revenged25 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 1:47 pm

Honestly, Sexton isn't why we're losing, just like Booker wasn't the reason the Suns were losing when he was leading them in FGA and still had the worst record in the NBA. The Cavs have suffered through a combination of poor coaching, lack of talent, and/or injuries the past 3 years. This past year they could've been a lot better but constant injuries and then drama with Drummond etc led to them collapsing after a strong start.

I can understand those that are hesitant to give Sexton a major contract, my only counter to that is that anyone that's performed as well as he has has gotten a major contract so he's going to get one but I can understand others point of view in not wanting to give him one. One of the biggest difference between the Cavs and Suns rebuild where giving Booker the max wasn't up for debate was that the Suns drafted poorly and didn't have as many good young players that would be needing to pay while. I mean after drafting Booker in 2015 the Suns then drafted:

2016:
Dragon Bender (Bust)

2017:
Josh Jackson (Bust/Off-Court issues)

2018:
DeAndre Ayton (Great pick but rookie in Booker's final rookie contract year)
Mikal Bridges (Great pick but 3&D so maxes in the 13-20 mil range)

So they had no one they needed to pay. Although they might not end up as studs like Ayton, Garland and Okoro aren't busts either so they'll be needing to pay players back to back which will lock them into a capped out team while still trying to figure out winning. If instead of drafting Garland in 2019, they instead drafted Jarrett Culver who busted I think even keeping the Okoro pick and Mobley pick the same no one would be questioning paying Sexton a sizeable contract, though a max might've still been up for debate. But since the Cavs didn't draft pure busts but instead got Garland who is worthy of extending, even if it's more on the Lonzo scale than his max himself as well so far, and then just drafted their own Ayton in Mobley, the Cavs do need to be more cognizant of paying everyone off of their rookie contracts while they still aren't winning.

The decision to pay or not pay Sexton should definitely wait till after this season to see if he continued to improve his play unless he's willing to sign a 20-25/yr extension right now. After this season that will hopefully see the starting 5 and top 3-4 off the bench healthy and engaged the majority of the season, we'll get to see if last year's hot start is actually replicable or if it was just a matter of being a rushed offseason due to COVID. If they able to show that the start of last year wasn't just a fluke, Sexton continues to improve like he does every year, and the team gets 35+ wins, I think paying Sexton the appropriate contract will end up happening as it'll show the Cavs are actually on the right path, as long as everyone's not hurt that is.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#576 » by Wisedude » Sun Aug 8, 2021 2:59 pm

Since the Cavs now want Love to get healthy and ready for the season because that is the best option they have. When Love is healthy, he still produces.
The Cavs should sign small forward Svi Mykhailiuk (unrestricted Free agent). He is a good player and very good shooter.
Doesn't look like much is going on in the trade market as teams filled needs in Free agency, draft & sign-n-trades already.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#577 » by Harper4Ferry? » Sun Aug 8, 2021 3:57 pm

With Bates and Duren both reclassifying in the last week, I'm suddenly ok with the concept of sucking one more season. Even if that doesn't guarantee you anything but 5th anymore. :)

Basically they just need to guard our 2022 pick at all costs.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#578 » by Wisedude » Sun Aug 8, 2021 4:20 pm

Also heard the Cavs own Houston's 2nd round pick next season plus their own 2nd round pick.
So the Cavs will have 3 picks in what should be a better and deeper draft next season to really boost this team.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#579 » by JonFromVA » Sun Aug 8, 2021 5:37 pm

Stillwater wrote:
mcfly1204 wrote:I look forward to seeing how we start of the season. Hopefully Sexton balls out, and we have a good problem on our hands for once.

I think what needs to happen is DG has to be the man that makes a massive difference as a scorer than he has. If not he has to get to work on it in a hurry, I don't care how good of a playmaker he is... without defense and without scoring paired with a guard who is without consistent defense and without confidence in his teammates over himself enough to give it up, just is not enough to justify keeping them together.
I think the fact Sexton was not traded will prove he is more in their plans long term and it is DG who has to step up or he is the one that will get traded for a better fitting pairing with Sexton.
I want to see if DG can play some off ball with Okoro or Sexton driving to the paint more or the offense running through Mobley tbh it might be DG is better scoring in that situation where he has less responsibility to make plays.


DG has already shown a lot of promise both on the ball and off the ball and in his 3rd season hopefully he will make big strides in both areas, just as we should be hoping Okoro makes big strides in his 2nd, and Collin in his 4th.

But the Rubio signing is a clue of the Cavs intent for us to decipher.

I think he's there to help Darius and Collin learn to run an offense and perhaps improve their defense, not just to be a backup guard. And if we actually run something like an actual offense with ball movement (not just the point-guards ISO'ing) there will be opportunities for everyone both on and off the ball.

We should get our first glimpse of what Mobley can do this afternoon in Summer League and how he can play with Okoro taking on a major role. And of course the Okoro .vs. Green matchup should create plenty of hot-takes.

But if all goes to plan, we should be able to easily play 4 guys who can create to one extent or another with the ball in their hands and if we can keep the ball moving there should be plenty of opportunities to create/finish plays all around.

We need to start moving away from guys taking turns or just running the same P&R over and over. That's just like training wheels for young players. Nobody should be stopping the ball. Nobody should be playing hero ball. That message needs to get through.

I still do think there's a chance Sexland can work if both players can grow and do what the team needs. With Okoro, Mobley, and Allen ... it's really to a point of overkill in terms of front-court defensive help, that is once Mobley and Okoro learn the ropes.

But we are up against the clock and we have a lot of lottery picks who will want to get paid. Allen accepting $20M was good news, but it's just the first step. Collin showing he wants to be part of this core and accepting a deal around the same would similarly be awesome, but if he wants to pursue a max or being "the man" on his own team he certainly has that right, time will tell if it was smart, though.

Here's hoping Mobley is light years more advanced than any 19/20 year old should be. I love the pick, but adding a 19/20 year old to our starting lineup every season has put a cap on our progress. Look at the other young cores that have broken through, and you'll see there's a point they stopped adding young pieces.
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Re: 2021 off season thread 

Post#580 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 8, 2021 5:56 pm

We need another SG or SF. I think it will be demoralizing for the rest of the team if we're starting a Garland/Sexton back court again. There's no way the Bulls will trade Ball before the start of the season. I don't even think they're allowed.

One of Sexton/Garland needs to be traded or moved to the bench. A Rubio/Garland back court would be absurd. A Rubio/Sexton back court could work (off the bench more so than as starters). You can slide Nance to 3 as a last resort in the starting unit, with Okoro at the 2 and Garland at PG, but Nance cannot be the plan at SF for a majority of the season. Ross is rumored to be available but he's basically a rich man's bench player.

I'm really concerned that we screwed up by not moving Sexton for Herro ahead of free agency. We basically need a Simmons, Beal, or Dame trade now to get value for Sexton and balance the roster.

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cbosh4mvp wrote:
Jarret Allen isn’t winning you anything. Garland won’t show up in the playoffs. Mobley is a glorified dunk man. Mitchell has some experience but is a liability on defense. To me, the Cavs are a treadmill team.

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