2021-22 regular season thread

[LivingLegend]

ESPN is projecting us as a 26 win team and about 14 wins short of the #10 play-in spot. Can't say that they're wrong at this point.

Casinos have us 500:1 to win the title and 250:1 to win the Eastern Conference. Win total bet over/under is 26.5 on a few casinos.

I will be disappointed if this is another brutal season. I'd like to watch games after mid January that mean something.

Its amazing that we keep adding top 5 players in the draft every year and our win projection hasnt changed in 4 years lol

[jbk1234]

ESPN is projecting us as a 26 win team and about 14 wins short of the #10 play-in spot. Can't say that they're wrong at this point.

Casinos have us 500:1 to win the title and 250:1 to win the Eastern Conference. Win total bet over/under is 26.5 on a few casinos.

I will be disappointed if this is another brutal season. I'd like to watch games after mid January that mean something.

Its amazing that we keep adding top 5 players in the draft every year and our win projection hasnt changed in 4 years lol

I don't really count the first year when you're stripping down the team for future draft capital, but when you're drafting 19-year old young men for their ceilings, and then thrusting them in the starting lineup, that's how it goes. Obviously the Beilein hire was a colossal mistake. Drummond and KPJ flaking out last season hurt. Having said all of that, the inability to balance the roster over that time hurts, and it's why in year one when a guy like Bridges is on the board, you need to think long and hard about passing on him.

[toooskies]

I setup the poll so we can change our votes whenever we want, lol

Needs a still vacillating option tbh.

It's just seems clunky trying to build around Simmons, but I haven't watched him day in and day out, and the defensive upside is really cool but 20 years too late. Which is why I ultimately made my stand on the intangibles ... his drive, character, etc. Silly to look beyond talent, I know, but it's my right as a fan.

I mean, building around Simmons might be as easy as not having a touch-dominant center playing in the post and having adequate shooting at most other positions, which you want anyway.

[jbk1234]

Needs a still vacillating option tbh.

It's just seems clunky trying to build around Simmons, but I haven't watched him day in and day out, and the defensive upside is really cool but 20 years too late. Which is why I ultimately made my stand on the intangibles ... his drive, character, etc. Silly to look beyond talent, I know, but it's my right as a fan.

I mean, building around Simmons might be as easy as not having a touch-dominant center playing in the post and having adequate shooting at most other positions, which you want anyway.

I really don't think he can be the primarily ball handler hanging out at the top of the three point arc anymore. I think that chapter needs to close. When you watch how teams defend the Sixers in those half court sets in the playoffs, it's like an introduction into absurdism art. He's going to have to play off ball in a secondary playmaker role to make it harder on defenses.

[toooskies]

It's just seems clunky trying to build around Simmons, but I haven't watched him day in and day out, and the defensive upside is really cool but 20 years too late. Which is why I ultimately made my stand on the intangibles ... his drive, character, etc. Silly to look beyond talent, I know, but it's my right as a fan.

I mean, building around Simmons might be as easy as not having a touch-dominant center playing in the post and having adequate shooting at most other positions, which you want anyway.

I really don't think he can be the primarily ball handler hanging out at the top of the three point arc anymore. I think that chapter needs to close. When you watch how teams defend the Sixers in those half court sets in the playoffs, it's like an introduction into absurdism art. He's going to have to play off ball in a secondary playmaker role to make it harder on defenses.

If he's only going to shoot close to the hoop you want him playing close to the hoop. It's not complicated. The problem is what they've always said the problem would be-- he's not a good fit next to another guy who's also best when given the ball close to the hoop. Simmons has found other ways to contribute, but he's not wrong to want out of a situation that isn't going to work unless he learns to shoot, if he can't improve enough to do it in games.

[JonFromVA]

Needs a still vacillating option tbh.

It's just seems clunky trying to build around Simmons, but I haven't watched him day in and day out, and the defensive upside is really cool but 20 years too late. Which is why I ultimately made my stand on the intangibles ... his drive, character, etc. Silly to look beyond talent, I know, but it's my right as a fan.

It'll only work with him as a secondary ball handler out of the SF position. If he's not good with that, the Cavs need to be out altogether.

And if you keep following that line of reasoning, you end up concluding he needs to play C or maybe PF or you end up doing clunky things like trying to hide Ben in the dunker's spot where he may or may not feel confident enough to dunk ...

If there's a more creative solution, are we're counting on JB Bickerstaff to come up with it?

For better or worse, if we went all-in on a Simmons trade, we'd see heads roll if it didn't start to pay dividends; but JBB should be able to win games on defense. So, he might save his and Koby's job ... but would we ever end up with an offense that wasn't dragged down by Ben?

Would Ben settle in and just find more ways to contribute on his own?

Would he care enough to try?

[jbk1234]

It's just seems clunky trying to build around Simmons, but I haven't watched him day in and day out, and the defensive upside is really cool but 20 years too late. Which is why I ultimately made my stand on the intangibles ... his drive, character, etc. Silly to look beyond talent, I know, but it's my right as a fan.

It'll only work with him as a secondary ball handler out of the SF position. If he's not good with that, the Cavs need to be out altogether.

And if you keep following that line of reasoning, you end up concluding he needs to play C or maybe PF or you end up doing clunky things like trying to hide Ben in the dunker's spot where he may or may not feel confident enough to dunk ...

If there's a more creative solution, are we're counting on JB Bickerstaff to come up with it?

For better or worse, if we went all-in on a Simmons trade, we'd see heads roll if it didn't start to pay dividends; but JBB should be able to win games on defense. So, he might save his and Koby's job ... but would we ever end up with an offense that wasn't dragged down by Ben?

Would Ben settle in and just find more ways to contribute on his own?

Would he care enough to try?

Let me put it this way, if you're the opposing defense and Garland is the primary ball handler at the top the key are you giving him the same space as Ben? You want to cheat off the side that Ben is playing on? Great, I'll use him as the roll man with Garland, or I'll have him set screens for other shooters, or I'll have him setting back picks down low for Allen. There's a great deal of secondary action that can be generated by having a guy like Simmons on your team off the ball.

[JonFromVA]

It'll only work with him as a secondary ball handler out of the SF position. If he's not good with that, the Cavs need to be out altogether.

And if you keep following that line of reasoning, you end up concluding he needs to play C or maybe PF or you end up doing clunky things like trying to hide Ben in the dunker's spot where he may or may not feel confident enough to dunk ...

If there's a more creative solution, are we're counting on JB Bickerstaff to come up with it?

For better or worse, if we went all-in on a Simmons trade, we'd see heads roll if it didn't start to pay dividends; but JBB should be able to win games on defense. So, he might save his and Koby's job ... but would we ever end up with an offense that wasn't dragged down by Ben?

Would Ben settle in and just find more ways to contribute on his own?

Would he care enough to try?

Let me put it this way, if you're the opposing defense and Garland is the primary ball handler at the top the key are you giving him the same space as Ben? You want to cheat off the side that Ben is playing on? Great, I'll use him as the roll man with Garland, or I'll have him set screens for other shooters, or I'll have him setting back picks down low for Allen. There's a great deal of secondary action that can be generated by having a guy like Simmons on your team off the ball.

In other words, you're going to ask Ben to play like a PF or C (at least on offense). What do you plan to do with your actual PF or C when the defense cheats off them during the action? And is setting screens even part of Ben's game?

And what's our PPP using Ben doing these things .vs. using Allen and Mobley in the P&R or Love and Markennan in the P&P?

nba.com has Ben at 0.87 as the roll man and 0.73 at the P&R ball handler.

whereas Allen was at 1.16 as the roll man in Cleveland and 1.41 in Brooklyn.

So, ... clunky might be putting it mildly.

[jbk1234]

And if you keep following that line of reasoning, you end up concluding he needs to play C or maybe PF or you end up doing clunky things like trying to hide Ben in the dunker's spot where he may or may not feel confident enough to dunk ...

If there's a more creative solution, are we're counting on JB Bickerstaff to come up with it?

For better or worse, if we went all-in on a Simmons trade, we'd see heads roll if it didn't start to pay dividends; but JBB should be able to win games on defense. So, he might save his and Koby's job ... but would we ever end up with an offense that wasn't dragged down by Ben?

Would Ben settle in and just find more ways to contribute on his own?

Would he care enough to try?

Let me put it this way, if you're the opposing defense and Garland is the primary ball handler at the top the key are you giving him the same space as Ben? You want to cheat off the side that Ben is playing on? Great, I'll use him as the roll man with Garland, or I'll have him set screens for other shooters, or I'll have him setting back picks down low for Allen. There's a great deal of secondary action that can be generated by having a guy like Simmons on your team off the ball.

In other words, you're going to ask Ben to play like a PF or C (at least on offense). What do you plan to do with your actual PF or C when the defense cheats off them during the action? And is setting screens even part of Ben's game?

And what's our PPP using Ben doing these things .vs. using Allen and Mobley in the P&R or Love and Markennan in the P&P?

nba.com has Ben at 0.87 as the roll man and 0.73 at the P&R ball handler.

whereas Allen was at 1.16 as the roll man in Cleveland and 1.41 in Brooklyn.

So, ... clunky might be putting it mildly.

With Lauri, it's doable. In a couple years with Lauri and Mobley, I can squint and see good. But that's a conversation that has to happen with both Klutch and Ben before a trade. Because I'm not fire selling Okoro and Allen in year one.

Who knows, depending on how you stagger minutes, Ben and Love on the floor could be interesting.

[JonFromVA]

Let me put it this way, if you're the opposing defense and Garland is the primary ball handler at the top the key are you giving him the same space as Ben? You want to cheat off the side that Ben is playing on? Great, I'll use him as the roll man with Garland, or I'll have him set screens for other shooters, or I'll have him setting back picks down low for Allen. There's a great deal of secondary action that can be generated by having a guy like Simmons on your team off the ball.

In other words, you're going to ask Ben to play like a PF or C (at least on offense). What do you plan to do with your actual PF or C when the defense cheats off them during the action? And is setting screens even part of Ben's game?

And what's our PPP using Ben doing these things .vs. using Allen and Mobley in the P&R or Love and Markennan in the P&P?

nba.com has Ben at 0.87 as the roll man and 0.73 at the P&R ball handler.

whereas Allen was at 1.16 as the roll man in Cleveland and 1.41 in Brooklyn.

So, ... clunky might be putting it mildly.

With Lauri, it's doable. In a couple years with Lauri and Mobley, I can squint and see good. But that's a conversation that has to happen with both Klutch and Ben before a trade. Because I'm not fire selling Okoro and Allen in year one.

Who knows, depending on how you stagger minutes, Ben and Love on the floor could be interesting.

On one hand we need to be careful about wish-casting, on the other we might be missing some things that we'd know full well if we'd been watching Simmons day in and day out for these past years.

But Morey brought in 3pt shooters ... Ben went down to the Hawks surrounded by Embiid (38%), Harris (39%), Curry (45%), and Korkmaz (38%). Without easy regular season transition offense Philly only scored 96 points in the closeout game and their defense couldn't save them even though Trae Young did not have a good game.

If we could get Ben on an MLE deal, I'd love to entertain all sorts of wonky lineups. There's a lot you can get away with against specific teams or specific bench groups, but we know full well if we upset Ben by asking him to do something he's not comfortable doing he's going to sit at home and demand a trade.

[LivingLegend]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

[jbk1234]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[toooskies]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don't get the impression he's satisfied; disagree that the thing driving the losing last year was that Collin Sexton wasn't bringing enough to the table; and that, somehow, we should expect him to have improved more (or differently) than he already has.

[jbk1234]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don't get the impression he's satisfied; disagree that the thing driving the losing last year was that Collin Sexton wasn't bringing enough to the table; and that, somehow, we should expect him to have improved more (or differently) than he already has.

There's simply no way that multiple coaching staffs, plural, haven't asked him to get his teammates more involved in the offense, or go over screens, or to stop leaking out until we've secured the defensive rebounds. Is that the primary reason the Cavs lost all those games? No. But when you're losing all those games, and a core player isn't doing those really basic things, it matters. It's why his on/off numbers were what they were despite him scoring as much as he did.

[toooskies]

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

I don't get the impression he's satisfied; disagree that the thing driving the losing last year was that Collin Sexton wasn't bringing enough to the table; and that, somehow, we should expect him to have improved more (or differently) than he already has.

There's simply no way that multiple coaching staffs, plural, haven't asked him to get his teammates more involved in the offense, or go over screens, or to stop leaking out until we've secured the defensive rebounds. Is that the primary reason the Cavs lost all those games? No. But when you're losing all those games, and a core player isn't doing those really basic things, it matters. It's why his on/off numbers were what they were despite him scoring as much as he did.

Trying to "get his teammates more involved on offense" isn't so simple when those teammates are simply not very good. Going 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 got better results than getting "help" from last year's version of Cedi. But Sexton averaged 6 assists per game in the last month of the season running the point, so he is showing improvement. Having better teammates (or just teammates available to play) should help on that issue.

If going over screens were easy, no one would run a switching D. It's something Collin needs to learn how to do since he's never going to be switchable (especially at SG), but it's also hard enough that NBA defenses are designed to minimize having to do it. You go under so that you don't lose your man. Bickerstaff has emphasized protecting the paint, so maybe it's a coaching choice to go under and stay with your guy instead of going over and losing a step or two. This strategy might be changed this year.

Leaking out had to be a coaching strategy and not a player decision given that Garland and Okoro joined Sexton at the bottom of the league in defensive rebounding, and one that made sense with Drummond/Love being great defensive rebounders. It makes less sense with Allen/Markkanen/Mobley being pretty average in that department and I would expect some improvement when it comes to team rebounding. (But also-- there aren't posts about Garland and Okoro not securing rebounds, despite being "core" members of the team.)

[jbk1234]

I don't get the impression he's satisfied; disagree that the thing driving the losing last year was that Collin Sexton wasn't bringing enough to the table; and that, somehow, we should expect him to have improved more (or differently) than he already has.

There's simply no way that multiple coaching staffs, plural, haven't asked him to get his teammates more involved in the offense, or go over screens, or to stop leaking out until we've secured the defensive rebounds. Is that the primary reason the Cavs lost all those games? No. But when you're losing all those games, and a core player isn't doing those really basic things, it matters. It's why his on/off numbers were what they were despite him scoring as much as he did.

Trying to "get his teammates more involved on offense" isn't so simple when those teammates are simply not very good. Going 1-on-1 or 1-on-2 got better results than getting "help" from last year's version of Cedi. But Sexton averaged 6 assists per game in the last month of the season running the point, so he is showing improvement. Having better teammates (or just teammates available to play) should help on that issue.

If going over screens were easy, no one would run a switching D. It's something Collin needs to learn how to do since he's never going to be switchable (especially at SG), but it's also hard enough that NBA defenses are designed to minimize having to do it. You go under so that you don't lose your man. Bickerstaff has emphasized protecting the paint, so maybe it's a coaching choice to go under and stay with your guy instead of going over and losing a step or two. This strategy might be changed this year.

Leaking out had to be a coaching strategy and not a player decision given that Garland and Okoro joined Sexton at the bottom of the league in defensive rebounding, and one that made sense with Drummond/Love being great defensive rebounders. It makes less sense with Allen/Markkanen/Mobley being pretty average in that department and I would expect some improvement when it comes to team rebounding. (But also-- there aren't posts about Garland and Okoro not securing rebounds, despite being "core" members of the team.)

Kevin Love was far more efficient than Sexton during Sexton's second year, and yes Love played a lot that year, yet Sexton took way more shots. Darius Garland was the best three point shooter to start last year and very few of his points were assisted by Sexton. Prince was the team's best three point shooter last year. Both Prince and Cedi started playing keep away from Sexton in the second unit because they weren't getting it back. It would be one thing if Sexton wasn't looking to get the G League crew involved, but he's almost never looked to send the ball back outside on his drives and he drives a lot. When he does an emergency bail out pass back to the perimeter guys are having to step off their spots, re-establish themselves, and then shoot, at which point the defense has usually recovered. There were still too many times when Sexton would shoot like six possessions in a row without anyone else touching the ball.

Garland and Okoro were both going over screens in the second half of the last year. I find it borderline impossible that a team with both Drummond, Allen and Hartenstein, which also happened to have the second to worse three point defense in the NBA, was telling Sexton, and only Sexton not to go over screens.

There's a difference between not being a particularly good rebounder (Sexton, like Kyrie, is actually an underrated rebounder when he tries), and taking yourself out of position to rebound because you're looking to get a cheap bucket on the other end.

[JonFromVA]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

We need to cut everyone a little slack, though. We are dealing with a pandemic and there are limits what a player like Collin can do in an empty gym working by himself and even in the best of times there's no fixed time line for a young player to figure things out.

[jbk1234]

Just watched all of the Media Day interviews--I really like what Sexton said. It seems like hes very self aware of what he needs to work on so that is great to see.. He also said he worked on shooting the 3 off the dribble on high P&R. Thank God.

The common theme from all player interviews is Accountability. All of them mentioned that and holding eachother accountable for mistakes, communication, ect. They all said they have to be more accountable, be more vocal on the court.

I would still like to hear more about changes to the offensive philosophy and gameplan because whatever the last 2 years were aint it

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

We need to cut everyone a little slack, though. We are dealing with a pandemic and there are limits what a player like Collin can do in an empty gym working by himself and even in the best of times there's no fixed time line for a young player to figure things out.

If he gets it now, and his on the court behavior changes (which has yet to happen), it will be water under the bridge. But it is disconcerting that it takes external incentives for him to focus on things that would result on the team performing better and possibly winning more. I'm not in his head but I'd hope he'd rather score less and win more than the other way around.

[JonFromVA]

I suppose that the important thing is that Sexton eventually gets it regardless of why.

That said, Sexton really didn't make an effort to get his teammates involved until he started hearing Garland's footsteps. He's never made an effort on the defensive end and it shouldn't take his next contract being at risk to get there.

I just struggle with the idea that a core guy can be satisfied with just getting buckets in the paint, and doing little else, while his team only wins 20 games three seasons in a row. It shouldn't have taken external incentives for him to do the things that were necessary to win more.

We need to cut everyone a little slack, though. We are dealing with a pandemic and there are limits what a player like Collin can do in an empty gym working by himself and even in the best of times there's no fixed time line for a young player to figure things out.

If he gets it now, and his on the court behavior changes (which has yet to happen), it will be water under the bridge. But it is disconcerting that it takes external incentives for him to focus on things that would result on the team performing better and possibly winning more. I'm not in his head but I'd hope he'd rather score less and win more than the other way around.

There's so much going on with an NBA player, all the money, the fame, dozens of people biding for his time, getting in his head, etc, etc. In the olden days, he'd have spent the past 3 years figuring out how to win in the NCAA and just be entering the league ... and some players still needed more time.

Mark Price (the greatest PG in Cavs history) averaged just 7 & 3 when he was Collin's age. We used the 7th pick in the draft on a PG because we feared Mark would bust. Fortunately he didn't need a lot more time ... but wow, imagine if Collin had only averaged 7 & 3 last year.

Developing players and getting them to where you want them to get is hard and the road is different for every player. We emphasized certain character traits in the hopes that the players we've drafted will eventually figure things out, but a lot of players have to get kicked to the curb and live without some of those paychecks before they really feel the need to change their habits.

We've force fed our young players minutes they never earned and put them in situations even a superstar would have struggled with ... it really warps perception. Other fans aren't going to recognize this, but we should.

[jbk1234]

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