Trade Ideas

[mcfly1204]

He is? He does?

He doesn't distribute the ball, he's a negative defender, and he can't shoot from deep.

Being 6'6" is cool, i guess lol

We're comparing him to Malik Beasley who contributes nothing but launching 3's.

I also expect some things to click for LeVert once he's acclimated with the team.

The comparison is fine but he is far from the best fit on the roster.

He does absolutely nothing the Cavs need, outside of being 6'6".

Battle of extremes here... LeVert can be that secondary creator, that's why we brought him in. Outside of that, he's an average defender at best, along with being an average high-volume shooter from 3.

[jbk1234]

I feel like people watched an entirely different version of LeVert than the one I saw. If you want to lean on smaller sample size, limited time with the starters, injuries, etc., okay. But people are describing attributes that did not manifest themselves during LeVert's time in Cleveland.

[JujitsuFlip]

We're comparing him to Malik Beasley who contributes nothing but launching 3's.

I also expect some things to click for LeVert once he's acclimated with the team.

The comparison is fine but he is far from the best fit on the roster.

He does absolutely nothing the Cavs need, outside of being 6'6".

Battle of extremes here... LeVert can be that secondary creator, that's why we brought him in. Outside of that, he's an average defender at best, along with being an average high-volume shooter from 3.

LeVert creates contested mid range jumpers for himself, he's far from Rubio/Garland levels of what people think of when they hear creator.

Below average defender, by the metrics, he's a negative defender, terrible fit with Garland, in that regard.

He's a below average shooter from 3. League average last season was 35.4%, LeVert shot 31.3% on the Cavs and 32.3% on the Pacers.

Just for context, Okoro, who is regarded as someone who can't hit the broadside of a barn, shot it 35.0% from 3 last season.

[mcfly1204]

Again, that's a bit extreme to compare\expect LeVert to be at the Garland\Rubio level as a creator. I expect LeVert to be similar to someone like Bradley Beal in that regard. If LeVert can get up to ~35% from 3, while still taking ~5 3PA, he'd be a pretty good fit imo. That said, he may end up being better coming off the bench for us depending on how Okoro and\or Agbaji develop.

[JujitsuFlip]

Again, that's a bit extreme to compare\expect LeVert to be at the Garland\Rubio level as a creator. I expect LeVert to be similar to someone like Bradley Beal in that regard. If LeVert can get up to ~35% from 3, while still taking ~5 3PA, he'd be a pretty good fit imo. That said, he may end up being better coming off the bench for us depending on how Okoro and\or Agbaji develop.

I just don't think a guy creating contested mid range jumpers for himself is very useful to the Cavs, as currently constructed. I'd rather put the ball in someone like Neto's hands, and allow him to create for others. A guy like Neto has also shown the ability to be a plus defender in his career.

Expecting LeVert to increase his volume and efficiency from deep feels highly improbable. He took 3.5 attempts from beyond the arc with the Cavs last season.

[mcfly1204]

You have to keep in mind LeVert only played in 19 regular season games with the Cavs last season. He put up 5.2 3PA with Indiana, so I don't see 5 3PA being too unrealistic. Whether or not he can shoot it at a higher percentage is the real question to me. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on his playmaking abilities...

[JonFromVA]

You have to keep in mind LeVert only played in 19 regular season games with the Cavs last season. He put up 5.2 3PA with Indiana, so I don't see 5 3PA being too unrealistic. Whether or not he can shoot it at a higher percentage is the real question to me. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on his playmaking abilities...

More than just that, he was being brought in in part because he was expected to click with Allen, and then Allen got hurt. Also LeVert got hurt and wasn't 100% the rest of the season (albeit LeVert @ 100% is a rare thing).

He's also played PG for stretches, dished out 10+ assists numerous times, maintains a 2:1 A/TO ration over his career.

But let's not turn this in to something it's not ... stating LeVert can contribute in numerous areas of need is not the same thing as stating he's was particularly good in those areas.

Also, let's try to avoid comparing apples to oranges?

Isaac shot very few 3's that weren't wide open and off a pass to the corner. Getting his 3pt% up to 35% was certainly progress for him, but what would his 3pt% has been if his shot selection included more tightly contested shots, shots from other spots, and shots he created for himself?

For example, LeVert is not anything special in terms of getting to the line, but he does average 5.3 trips per 100 over his career, Isaac is at 3.7 and Malik Beasley is at 2.2. Only LeVert's 5.3 is anywhere in the neighborhood of Sexton's 6.5.

Point is we don't really help the mess we have at SG by bringing in a specialist or a mediocre generalist. We either need to trade for someone who pushes the needle, or hope at least one of our numerous candidates improves as a player or at least in the role.

And given we're not even sure what this team needs most (besides Ricky back, healthy and able to sink 3's), what we really need is data.

[JujitsuFlip]

You have to keep in mind LeVert only played in 19 regular season games with the Cavs last season. He put up 5.2 3PA with Indiana, so I don't see 5 3PA being too unrealistic. Whether or not he can shoot it at a higher percentage is the real question to me. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on his playmaking abilities...

He had 4.8 attempts from beyond the arc with the Pacers, at 32.3%. He only once in his career has achieved the ~5 attempts on ~35% measuring stick you put out there, that was in the 19-20 season when he had 4.9 3PA on 36.4%. If you think he can achieve that again, cool. I'll lean towards the career average, on attempts and efficiency.

We can agree to disagree on play making ability because he is like top 100 in assist to TO ratio in the league but hardly anyone would label LeVert as a creator lol

[mcfly1204]

Your stats are a bit off there, but that's not a big deal. I don't really get why you're pulling in assist to turnover ratios without other factors. LeBron is barely over 2.0 for his career, so I guess he is not much of a playmaker either. Also keep in my that "creator" <> "facilitator".

[jbk1234]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

[JonFromVA]

For your amusement, here's LeVert's career game so far:

Watch on YouTube

[JonFromVA]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

[JujitsuFlip]

Your stats are a bit off there, but that's not a big deal. I don't really get why you're pulling in assist to turnover ratios without other factors. LeBron is barely over 2.0 for his career, so I guess he is not much of a playmaker either. Also keep in my that "creator" <> "facilitator".

Nope, stats are spot on.

[jbk1234]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

I mean you just went into the vault for LeVert's one time I scored 51 deep track Terrance Ross style... so some might consider that advocating?

[JujitsuFlip]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

Late December, shoot, I hope he's ready to start by mid October.

[mcfly1204]

Your stats are a bit off there, but that's not a big deal. I don't really get why you're pulling in assist to turnover ratios without other factors. LeBron is barely over 2.0 for his career, so I guess he is not much of a playmaker either. Also keep in my that "creator" <> "facilitator".

Nope, stats are spot on.

Come on man, look more closely...

[mcfly1204]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

I mean you just went into the vault for LeVert's one time I scored 51 deep track Terrance Ross style... so some might consider that advocating?

He was just being humorous...

[jbk1234]

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

I mean you just went into the vault for LeVert's one time I scored 51 deep track Terrance Ross style... so some might consider that advocating?

He was just being humorous...

So was I, or trying at least.

[JujitsuFlip]

Your stats are a bit off there, but that's not a big deal. I don't really get why you're pulling in assist to turnover ratios without other factors. LeBron is barely over 2.0 for his career, so I guess he is not much of a playmaker either. Also keep in my that "creator" <> "facilitator".

Nope, stats are spot on.

Come on man, look more closely...

4.8 attempts on 32.3%.

Edit: you're literally combining his 74 total games in Indy across 2 seasons? Oof, just for him to still not even hit the efficiency mark... Yeah, probably woulda stuck with the original example I offered of the 19-20 season lol

[JonFromVA]

I'm willing to give LeVert's advocates the first third of the season, but honestly, he strikes me as a different version of Sexton who is going to have a difficult time adjusting to this roster and what should be his role on it. Based solely on what I witnessed his defense, at least in the play-ins, was better than advertised but his ball handling and floor vision were far worse, especially with Mobley near Allen instead of Joe Harris out at the three point line. Other teams seemed more than happy with LeVert forcing contested shots in or around the painted area.

Like Sexton, he's a better fit off the bench once one of Allen or Mobley sit down and the floor is more open. Not everyone's career stats transfer, and the jump from good player on a bad team, to a good team, to a contender proves impossible for certain types of players, at least if they're to remain in the starting unit. We'll see how it goes, but I really hope Agbaji is ready to go by late December.

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

I mean you just went into the vault for LeVert's one time I scored 51 deep track Terrance Ross style... so some might consider that advocating?

I tend to address things I don't think have been addressed. I wouldn't call it advocating, more like filling in potholes.

For instance, comparing LeVert to Ross is simply lazy. Ross has been in the league 10 seasons, and only topped 35 pts that one time. LeVert has played 6 seasons and had a 42pt game just this past season for the Pacers and a 35pt game for the Cavs. He had a 43pt game the year before that, and a couple of 37pt games the season he broke out and had the 51pt game.

If instead you'd pointed out that if we wanted a volume scorer, we might as well keep Collin because he's more efficient and more consistent ... I'd have to agree; but we can't ignore LeVert is actually SG height and while Collin has a decent wingspan, Caris has 4" on him (just 2.5" in standing reach, though). Caris has also typically generated more assists, steals, and blocks which is important if you don't actually want your SG to be a high usage player.