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[toooskies]

I'm just not sure how much it moves the needle in a deal. It seemed at best team's would view him as a sweetener as-in give us Okoro AND that #1 pick (we don't have) and we'll give you our veteran expiring player about to be a UFA.

And even if we still had a #1 pick in this draft, Isaac is still younger than some of the juniors and seniors we might consider drafting in hopes they could contribute sooner.

But he might help us aggregate salary in order to acquire someone on a bad contract?

Yuck. Okoro still has value coming off the bench as part of a three guard rotation to a team starting Garland and Mitchell. Ideally, you can wait until one of Allen or Mobley sit so you're not running so many units with 3 non-shooters. Personally, I have Okoro's trade value as higher than filler so the Cavs can take back a bad contract, but even if he returns an expiring Alec Burks, I'm not moving him.

Here's a catch ... Isaac has a qualifying offer of $11.8M, so any hope of getting him for less than that needs to come through an extension before he becomes a free-agent, or else we're going to have to give up our rights to match.

And here's a comp for you ... Philly traded Matisse Thybulle who will be a restricted free-agent this Summer and got back Jalen McDaniels who they don't play very much, was DNP in these last two games, and is going to be a UFA this Summer. We can move the deck chairs around a bit, but I'm not expecting someone we got for Isaac right now to make a huge difference.

But yeah, if you we thought Duncan Robinson was going to bounce back when everyone decided he was the worst contract in the league, Okoro's salary would have helped us take him off of Miami's hands. Of course after lighting up the Bucks, he's shooting 20% from 3pt .vs. the Knicks.

So, it's not a great situation and even though as a fan I'd love to continue to see how Isaac develops as a Cav - there is a call to make. To grant him the time he needs to develop, we really want him on a cheaper/longer contract with any options being team options. Alas, the fact we used the 5th pick in the draft is catching up to us.

I think we can swing Okoro for Royce O'Neale, depending on who makes the actual offer. Okoro's a fine role-player-in-development for a team pressing the reset button, whether that's the Nets or a team that decides to rebuild and trades them a star.

[jbk1234]

Yuck. Okoro still has value coming off the bench as part of a three guard rotation to a team starting Garland and Mitchell. Ideally, you can wait until one of Allen or Mobley sit so you're not running so many units with 3 non-shooters. Personally, I have Okoro's trade value as higher than filler so the Cavs can take back a bad contract, but even if he returns an expiring Alec Burks, I'm not moving him.

Here's a catch ... Isaac has a qualifying offer of $11.8M, so any hope of getting him for less than that needs to come through an extension before he becomes a free-agent, or else we're going to have to give up our rights to match.

And here's a comp for you ... Philly traded Matisse Thybulle who will be a restricted free-agent this Summer and got back Jalen McDaniels who they don't play very much, was DNP in these last two games, and is going to be a UFA this Summer. We can move the deck chairs around a bit, but I'm not expecting someone we got for Isaac right now to make a huge difference.

But yeah, if you we thought Duncan Robinson was going to bounce back when everyone decided he was the worst contract in the league, Okoro's salary would have helped us take him off of Miami's hands. Of course after lighting up the Bucks, he's shooting 20% from 3pt .vs. the Knicks.

So, it's not a great situation and even though as a fan I'd love to continue to see how Isaac develops as a Cav - there is a call to make. To grant him the time he needs to develop, we really want him on a cheaper/longer contract with any options being team options. Alas, the fact we used the 5th pick in the draft is catching up to us.

I think we can swing Okoro for Royce O'Neale, depending on who makes the actual offer. Okoro's a fine role-player-in-development for a team pressing the reset button, whether that's the Nets or a team that decides to rebuild and trades them a star.

I wouldn't hate it, but I feel like O'Neale gets pretty overrated, and if the Nets are serious about matching any offer on Cam Johnson, O'Neale might be gettable for our MLE and seconds (under the new CBA). I feel like if Kyrie had his annual tantrum earlier in the season, and the Nets F.O. had an opportunity to see their ceiling a month or two ahead of deadline, he might have been available for an expiring and seconds.

[JonFromVA]

Yuck. Okoro still has value coming off the bench as part of a three guard rotation to a team starting Garland and Mitchell. Ideally, you can wait until one of Allen or Mobley sit so you're not running so many units with 3 non-shooters. Personally, I have Okoro's trade value as higher than filler so the Cavs can take back a bad contract, but even if he returns an expiring Alec Burks, I'm not moving him.

Here's a catch ... Isaac has a qualifying offer of $11.8M, so any hope of getting him for less than that needs to come through an extension before he becomes a free-agent, or else we're going to have to give up our rights to match.

And here's a comp for you ... Philly traded Matisse Thybulle who will be a restricted free-agent this Summer and got back Jalen McDaniels who they don't play very much, was DNP in these last two games, and is going to be a UFA this Summer. We can move the deck chairs around a bit, but I'm not expecting someone we got for Isaac right now to make a huge difference.

But yeah, if you we thought Duncan Robinson was going to bounce back when everyone decided he was the worst contract in the league, Okoro's salary would have helped us take him off of Miami's hands. Of course after lighting up the Bucks, he's shooting 20% from 3pt .vs. the Knicks.

So, it's not a great situation and even though as a fan I'd love to continue to see how Isaac develops as a Cav - there is a call to make. To grant him the time he needs to develop, we really want him on a cheaper/longer contract with any options being team options. Alas, the fact we used the 5th pick in the draft is catching up to us.

I'm not sure Okoro is worth more than the Q.O. unless he makes some type of herculean leap next season. In the unlikely event that happens, it's a good problem as the Cavs will still have matching rights and they can move him later that season when he'll have very different trade value, or not move him at all.

If your concern is that he plays out that 5th season on his Q.O. and becomes an unrestricted free agent, I'd live with that risk. Again, there's a small group of teams he can start on, an even smaller group who would tie up cap space paying him a starter's money, and being part of a three guard rotation where he gets plenty of minutes is hardly worse case for him.

The risk is both, that we could be forced to pay him the QO while he's still developing and if he did develop we'd have lost our right to match.

otoh, Isaac can make things simpler by taking a major step and earning something more than the QO next season, but then we have to pay him when we may already be paying Caris similar money for a similar role.

Ideally, we lock Isaac up on a team friendly extension this Summer and then he breaks out; but he wouldn't be the first young player to bet on himself.

[toooskies]

Here's a catch ... Isaac has a qualifying offer of $11.8M, so any hope of getting him for less than that needs to come through an extension before he becomes a free-agent, or else we're going to have to give up our rights to match.

And here's a comp for you ... Philly traded Matisse Thybulle who will be a restricted free-agent this Summer and got back Jalen McDaniels who they don't play very much, was DNP in these last two games, and is going to be a UFA this Summer. We can move the deck chairs around a bit, but I'm not expecting someone we got for Isaac right now to make a huge difference.

But yeah, if you we thought Duncan Robinson was going to bounce back when everyone decided he was the worst contract in the league, Okoro's salary would have helped us take him off of Miami's hands. Of course after lighting up the Bucks, he's shooting 20% from 3pt .vs. the Knicks.

So, it's not a great situation and even though as a fan I'd love to continue to see how Isaac develops as a Cav - there is a call to make. To grant him the time he needs to develop, we really want him on a cheaper/longer contract with any options being team options. Alas, the fact we used the 5th pick in the draft is catching up to us.

I think we can swing Okoro for Royce O'Neale, depending on who makes the actual offer. Okoro's a fine role-player-in-development for a team pressing the reset button, whether that's the Nets or a team that decides to rebuild and trades them a star.

I wouldn't hate it, but I feel like O'Neale gets pretty overrated, and if the Nets are serious about matching any offer on Cam Johnson, O'Neale might be gettable for our MLE and seconds (under the new CBA). I feel like if Kyrie had his annual tantrum earlier in the season, and the Nets F.O. had an opportunity to see their ceiling a month or two ahead of deadline, he might have been available for an expiring and seconds.

He might be overrated, but he also shoots 40% from three and isn't a liability on defense, which is good enough to be our starting 3.

[JonFromVA]

I think we can swing Okoro for Royce O'Neale, depending on who makes the actual offer. Okoro's a fine role-player-in-development for a team pressing the reset button, whether that's the Nets or a team that decides to rebuild and trades them a star.

I wouldn't hate it, but I feel like O'Neale gets pretty overrated, and if the Nets are serious about matching any offer on Cam Johnson, O'Neale might be gettable for our MLE and seconds (under the new CBA). I feel like if Kyrie had his annual tantrum earlier in the season, and the Nets F.O. had an opportunity to see their ceiling a month or two ahead of deadline, he might have been available for an expiring and seconds.

He might be overrated, but he also shoots 40% from three and isn't a liability on defense, which is good enough to be our starting 3.

I think we want him (and he's a close friend of Mitchell), so, he will likely be a trade target.

It's just not clear whether the Nets would want Okoro for roster and contract reasons.

[jbk1234]

I think we can swing Okoro for Royce O'Neale, depending on who makes the actual offer. Okoro's a fine role-player-in-development for a team pressing the reset button, whether that's the Nets or a team that decides to rebuild and trades them a star.

I wouldn't hate it, but I feel like O'Neale gets pretty overrated, and if the Nets are serious about matching any offer on Cam Johnson, O'Neale might be gettable for our MLE and seconds (under the new CBA). I feel like if Kyrie had his annual tantrum earlier in the season, and the Nets F.O. had an opportunity to see their ceiling a month or two ahead of deadline, he might have been available for an expiring and seconds.

He might be overrated, but he also shoots 40% from three and isn't a liability on defense, which is good enough to be our starting 3.

I really do think that the Nets might prefer the cap space over Okoro. If Cam signs a deal in the 20-25M range, they'll have around $165-170M payroll on 11 guys, without bringing back Curry or Wantabe. So saving $10M in salary will probably be close to saving $30-40M in real dollars to say nothing of alleviating issues with the apron.

[toooskies]

I wouldn't hate it, but I feel like O'Neale gets pretty overrated, and if the Nets are serious about matching any offer on Cam Johnson, O'Neale might be gettable for our MLE and seconds (under the new CBA). I feel like if Kyrie had his annual tantrum earlier in the season, and the Nets F.O. had an opportunity to see their ceiling a month or two ahead of deadline, he might have been available for an expiring and seconds.

He might be overrated, but he also shoots 40% from three and isn't a liability on defense, which is good enough to be our starting 3.

I really do think that the Nets might prefer the cap space over Okoro. If Cam signs a deal in the 20-25M range, they'll have around $165-170M payroll on 11 guys, without bringing back Curry or Wantabe. So saving $10M in salary will probably be close to saving $30-40M in real dollars to say nothing of alleviating issues with the apron.

I have no expectation of the Nets to sit there and count dollar bills while waiting for their draft pick assets to mature. They're going to trade them to a team that tears down for a rebuild. Whether that's Toronto, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, Portland, Utah, maybe Milwaukee or Dallas. So you have to take into account, what assets are attractive to those teams in a rebuild? a 22 year-old who has a ton of experience for his age but also won't be in decline by their next timeline is a nice asset to move, even if he isn't a needle-mover.

[JonFromVA]

He might be overrated, but he also shoots 40% from three and isn't a liability on defense, which is good enough to be our starting 3.

I really do think that the Nets might prefer the cap space over Okoro. If Cam signs a deal in the 20-25M range, they'll have around $165-170M payroll on 11 guys, without bringing back Curry or Wantabe. So saving $10M in salary will probably be close to saving $30-40M in real dollars to say nothing of alleviating issues with the apron.

I have no expectation of the Nets to sit there and count dollar bills while waiting for their draft pick assets to mature. They're going to trade them to a team that tears down for a rebuild. Whether that's Toronto, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, Portland, Utah, maybe Milwaukee or Dallas. So you have to take into account, what assets are attractive to those teams in a rebuild? a 22 year-old who has a ton of experience for his age but also won't be in decline by their next timeline is a nice asset to move, even if he isn't a needle-mover.

Then the question becomes can the Nets get something more attractive than Isaac for Royce O'Neal to send to that 3rd team?

For instance can they get a late first round pick? An offensively talented/young player not at the end of his rookie deal?

If there's a rebuilding team with cap space to burn on a gamble like will Isaac Okoro eventually become worth more than his QO, they can just go after him next year in free-agency.

[TheLand13]

If getting O’Neale means giving up Okoro, I don’t want to do it. In the event that Mitchell does eventually get traded, Okoro is still a pretty decent option to be his starting wing mate. His perimeter defense is bordering on elite at this point and I think he’s much better suited playing at SG anyways.

If we can find a way to take away O’Neale while keeping Okoro and LeVert, I’m all for it.

[ijspeelman]

I do not understand the Heat

[JujitsuFlip]

I do not understand the Heat

Makes ya think coaching but on the other side this Celtics core has been taken to the ECF by 3 different head coaches.

[JonFromVA]

I do not understand the Heat

Well, we're talking a team that was in the ECF last season, and went to the finals a couple of years before that; so perhaps the question is moreso - where was this team in the regular season?

[ijspeelman]

I do not understand the Heat

Well, we're talking a team that was in the ECF last season, and went to the finals a couple of years before that; so perhaps the question is moreso - where was this team in the regular season?

What doesn't make sense to me is how they went from the 4th worst three point shooting team (34.4%) to the best three point shooting team in the playoffs (38.8%).

Their defense wasn't the question as we know its really good and we knew what Bam and Jimmy provided. In a small sample, their shooters have completely flipped the switch. In friend groups, I've been talking about how that shooting is going to shift the other way, but at this point, I don't know if that is the case.

[JonFromVA]

I do not understand the Heat

Well, we're talking a team that was in the ECF last season, and went to the finals a couple of years before that; so perhaps the question is moreso - where was this team in the regular season?

What doesn't make sense to me is how they went from the 4th worst three point shooting team (34.4%) to the best three point shooting team in the playoffs (38.8%).

Their defense wasn't the question as we know its really good and we knew what Bam and Jimmy provided. In a small sample, their shooters have completely flipped the switch. In friend groups, I've been talking about how that shooting is going to shift the other way, but at this point, I don't know if that is the case.

I haven't seen enough of them to suggest a theory, other than to say unlocking an offense is often a subtle thing.

The Heat have a 125.3 offensive rating in the playoffs, and all their role players have super high TS% in the Celtics series. In fact, Bam, Jimmy, and Kyle are 6th, 7th, and 8th in TS% on the Heat for the series. Jimmy's overall playoff TS% of 60.2% is better than any other Heat player (except himself) in the regular season. In the playoffs, Strus, Robinson, Highsmith, and Martin are all higher.

Their best offensive 5-man unit in the regular season had a 133 ORtg and consisted of: Lowry-Strus-Caleb.Martin-Butler-Adebayo which suggests Herro and Oladipo were not all that critical.

As for our Cavs, JBB gambled on Cedi and almost all of our playoff lineups with Cedi stunk, whereas our traditional lineup with either Isaac or Caris at SF were good to ok.

We can (and will) argue the finer details about floor spacing, but we need guys who can reliably contribute off the bench in the playoffs. And while a Duncan Robinson type may be useful for breaking a game open, I believe what we really need are guys who shoot well and play aggressive defense without compromising the system.

[toooskies]

Well, we're talking a team that was in the ECF last season, and went to the finals a couple of years before that; so perhaps the question is moreso - where was this team in the regular season?

What doesn't make sense to me is how they went from the 4th worst three point shooting team (34.4%) to the best three point shooting team in the playoffs (38.8%).

Their defense wasn't the question as we know its really good and we knew what Bam and Jimmy provided. In a small sample, their shooters have completely flipped the switch. In friend groups, I've been talking about how that shooting is going to shift the other way, but at this point, I don't know if that is the case.

I haven't seen enough of them to suggest a theory, other than to say unlocking an offense is often a subtle thing.

The Heat have a 125.3 offensive rating in the playoffs, and all their role players have super high TS% in the Celtics series. In fact, Bam, Jimmy, and Kyle are 6th, 7th, and 8th in TS% on the Heat for the series. Jimmy's overall playoff TS% of 60.2% is better than any other Heat player (except himself) in the regular season. In the playoffs, Strus, Robinson, Highsmith, and Martin are all higher.

Their best offensive 5-man unit in the regular season had a 133 ORtg and consisted of: Lowry-Strus-Caleb.Martin-Butler-Adebayo which suggests Herro and Oladipo were not all that critical.

As for our Cavs, JBB gambled on Cedi and almost all of our playoff lineups with Cedi stunk, whereas our traditional lineup with either Isaac or Caris at SF were good to ok.

We can (and will) argue the finer details about floor spacing, but we need guys who can reliably contribute off the bench in the playoffs. And while a Duncan Robinson type may be useful for breaking a game open, I believe what we really need are guys who shoot well and play aggressive defense without compromising the system.

My theory is that Herro is a Sexton-style offense-killer.

[ijspeelman]

What doesn't make sense to me is how they went from the 4th worst three point shooting team (34.4%) to the best three point shooting team in the playoffs (38.8%).

Their defense wasn't the question as we know its really good and we knew what Bam and Jimmy provided. In a small sample, their shooters have completely flipped the switch. In friend groups, I've been talking about how that shooting is going to shift the other way, but at this point, I don't know if that is the case.

I haven't seen enough of them to suggest a theory, other than to say unlocking an offense is often a subtle thing.

The Heat have a 125.3 offensive rating in the playoffs, and all their role players have super high TS% in the Celtics series. In fact, Bam, Jimmy, and Kyle are 6th, 7th, and 8th in TS% on the Heat for the series. Jimmy's overall playoff TS% of 60.2% is better than any other Heat player (except himself) in the regular season. In the playoffs, Strus, Robinson, Highsmith, and Martin are all higher.

Their best offensive 5-man unit in the regular season had a 133 ORtg and consisted of: Lowry-Strus-Caleb.Martin-Butler-Adebayo which suggests Herro and Oladipo were not all that critical.

As for our Cavs, JBB gambled on Cedi and almost all of our playoff lineups with Cedi stunk, whereas our traditional lineup with either Isaac or Caris at SF were good to ok.

We can (and will) argue the finer details about floor spacing, but we need guys who can reliably contribute off the bench in the playoffs. And while a Duncan Robinson type may be useful for breaking a game open, I believe what we really need are guys who shoot well and play aggressive defense without compromising the system.

My theory is that Herro is a Sexton-style offense-killer.

I've always liked Herro's passing and movement a lot better so I don't think he completely fits that mold.

However, he is a high volume, average efficiency guy.

[JonFromVA]

I haven't seen enough of them to suggest a theory, other than to say unlocking an offense is often a subtle thing.

The Heat have a 125.3 offensive rating in the playoffs, and all their role players have super high TS% in the Celtics series. In fact, Bam, Jimmy, and Kyle are 6th, 7th, and 8th in TS% on the Heat for the series. Jimmy's overall playoff TS% of 60.2% is better than any other Heat player (except himself) in the regular season. In the playoffs, Strus, Robinson, Highsmith, and Martin are all higher.

Their best offensive 5-man unit in the regular season had a 133 ORtg and consisted of: Lowry-Strus-Caleb.Martin-Butler-Adebayo which suggests Herro and Oladipo were not all that critical.

As for our Cavs, JBB gambled on Cedi and almost all of our playoff lineups with Cedi stunk, whereas our traditional lineup with either Isaac or Caris at SF were good to ok.

We can (and will) argue the finer details about floor spacing, but we need guys who can reliably contribute off the bench in the playoffs. And while a Duncan Robinson type may be useful for breaking a game open, I believe what we really need are guys who shoot well and play aggressive defense without compromising the system.

My theory is that Herro is a Sexton-style offense-killer.

I've always liked Herro's passing and movement a lot better so I don't think he completely fits that mold.

However, he is a high volume, average efficiency guy.

Yeah, I wasn't ready to push that idea (due to the limited number of Heat games I've watched), but it's a distinct possibility.

[jbk1234]

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[JonFromVA]

So, the 2nd best offense and a team that averages 117.9 ppg could only muster 84pts .vs. the Heat's zone defense in a game 7 in Boston after Tatum twists his ankle. Jaylen Brown shows down. Kevin Love is watching the past two games from the bench. The Celtics went with a small starting lineup again, bringing their defensive catalyst Robert Williams off the bench and all those shooters can't generate offense when it matters most because the guy on their team most capable of create his own is playing hurt. Grant Williams manages a -19 in just 16 minutes

Yeah, that's going to create some hot takes on the GB.

My thoughts:

1) Do we actually want to pursue Grant Williams? Seems like a likely scapegoat.
2) Look at how awful the Celtics played and shot when their star was playing hurt.
3) The Heat were making their 3's, but still only scored 103 pts?

The playoffs are a slog where defense is never more important. Offensively spacing is important, but what's more important is having some ways to get consistent buckets so you don't score 80.

All signs continue to point to Evan Mobley's development, but not as a 3pt shooter; but as someone who can hopefully just get consistent buckets by shooting over smaller players or driving around bigger.

[JujitsuFlip]

So, the 2nd best offense and a team that averages 117.9 ppg could only muster 84pts .vs. the Heat's zone defense in a game 7 in Boston after Tatum twists his ankle. Jaylen Brown shows down. Kevin Love is watching the past two games from the bench. The Celtics went with a small starting lineup again, bringing their defensive catalyst Robert Williams off the bench and all those shooters can't generate offense when it matters most because the guy on their team most capable of create his own is playing hurt. Grant Williams manages a -19 in just 16 minutes

Yeah, that's going to create some hot takes on the GB.

My thoughts:

1) Do we actually want to pursue Grant Williams? Seems like a likely scapegoat.
2) Look at how awful the Celtics played and shot when their star was playing hurt.
3) The Heat were making their 3's, but still only scored 103 pts?

The playoffs are a slog where defense is never more important. Offensively spacing is important, but what's more important is having some ways to get consistent buckets so you don't score 80.

All signs continue to point to Evan Mobley's development, but not as a 3pt shooter; but as someone who can hopefully just get consistent buckets by shooting over smaller players or driving around bigger.

Cavs can't really throw their name in the hat for restricted free agents, so pass on Grant Williams.

I like his shooting ability/potential but do not care for him being a 6'6" PF.