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[ijspeelman]

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

I think the Suns got worse lowkey. Not that Beal is a bad player, but he's the kind of player they don't need: volume scorer with iffy defense.

Things they needed: extra passing (outside of CP3), wing defense, and depth. Things they still don't have with Beal: extra passing, wing defense, and depth.

The assumption is once the Suns trade Ayton it will bring back 2 or 3 solid role players, should help with the depth situation.

I'd be surprised if an Ayton trade would result in even 2 solid role players. I like the guy, but on the money he is getting it'll be hard.

I just see them solving more than 1-2 of their major problems in FA or via trades this year.

[JujitsuFlip]

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

I think there are non-box score reasons why Mitchell > Beal.

I believe Mitchell is the better easy shot generator, passer, and defender. There is a reason advanced stats like him a lot more.

His teams offenses tend to be top 10 (at least in the regular season).

Yet neither guy has ever reached a conference final.

[jbk1234]

There's no way the Cavs can keep up with teams like the Suns who just acquired 2 studs for less than the Cavs surrendered for Mitchell.

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

And you're using career numbers because it's been over two years now since Beal had a decent season. His efficiency took a pretty big hit when the league stopped rewarding offensive players for initiating contact. He's been barking at the officials ever since.

[JujitsuFlip]

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

And you're using career numbers because it's been over two years now since Beal had a decent season. His efficiency took a pretty big hit when the league stopped rewarding offensive players for initiating contact. He's been barking at the officials ever since.

Lol look at his first few seasons in the league... Taking career #s just provides the full body of work, you can do the playoffs too but fair warning the results will be similar.

Don't shoot the messenger because the Cavs mortgaged the whole future for a guy who has equivalent stats to someone you believe isn't very good.

[ijspeelman]

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

I think there are non-box score reasons why Mitchell > Beal.

I believe Mitchell is the better easy shot generator, passer, and defender. There is a reason advanced stats like him a lot more.

His teams offenses tend to be top 10 (at least in the regular season).

Yet neither guy has ever reached a conference final.

Neither has Joel Embiid, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, or Yao Ming.

[mcfly1204]

I think there are non-box score reasons why Mitchell > Beal.

I believe Mitchell is the better easy shot generator, passer, and defender. There is a reason advanced stats like him a lot more.

His teams offenses tend to be top 10 (at least in the regular season).

Yet neither guy has ever reached a conference final.

Neither has Joel Embiid, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, or Yao Ming.

Come on now, I just assumed we were ignoring the reality that a lot has to happen to make the conference finals.

As for the topic, Beal with his NTC was in a very different situation than Mitchell in Utah.

[jbk1234]

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

And you're using career numbers because it's been over two years now since Beal had a decent season. His efficiency took a pretty big hit when the league stopped rewarding offensive players for initiating contact. He's been barking at the officials ever since.

Lol look at his first few seasons in the league... Taking career #s just provides the full body of work, you can do the playoffs too but fair warning the results will be similar.

Don't shoot the messenger because the Cavs mortgaged the whole future for a guy who has equivalent stats to someone you believe isn't very good.

But they didn't trade for the 22 year old version of Beal, they traded for the current one.

[mcfly1204]

The real question, can I refer to Beal as a 6'1" SG since he has the same standing reach as Mitchell, and a slightly shorter wingspan?

[gflem]

There's no way the Cavs can keep up with teams like the Suns who just acquired 2 studs for less than the Cavs surrendered for Mitchell.

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

I think the Suns got worse lowkey. Not that Beal is a bad player, but he's the kind of player they don't need: volume scorer with iffy defense.

Things they needed: extra passing (outside of CP3), wing defense, and depth. Things they still don't have with Beal: extra passing, wing defense, and depth.

I'm with you on that. Four years and $220 mil on the contract for a declining player with injury concerns? That the Wiz didn't have to pay to move Beal was lucky imo. He can still play for sure, but with how the Suns are now basically stuck with those four contracts and have little ability to put other players around them... I wouldn't want the Cavs to be in that position.
The Suns have very little leverage in moving Ayton if that is their plan to surround Booker, Durant, and Beal with real NBA players. Ayton's contract, attitude, and work ethic along with his issues with management make him a negative in my book.

[JujitsuFlip]

I think there are non-box score reasons why Mitchell > Beal.

I believe Mitchell is the better easy shot generator, passer, and defender. There is a reason advanced stats like him a lot more.

His teams offenses tend to be top 10 (at least in the regular season).

Yet neither guy has ever reached a conference final.

Neither has Joel Embiid, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, or Yao Ming.

T-Mac did in 2013 but to the others those are quite the exceptions to hang your hat on.

[JujitsuFlip]

And you're using career numbers because it's been over two years now since Beal had a decent season. His efficiency took a pretty big hit when the league stopped rewarding offensive players for initiating contact. He's been barking at the officials ever since.

Lol look at his first few seasons in the league... Taking career #s just provides the full body of work, you can do the playoffs too but fair warning the results will be similar.

Don't shoot the messenger because the Cavs mortgaged the whole future for a guy who has equivalent stats to someone you believe isn't very good.

But they didn't trade for the 22 year old version of Beal, they traded for the current one.

Ok, so you didn't look, the point was he wasn't a scorer or efficient his first few years in the league...

[jbk1234]

Lol look at his first few seasons in the league... Taking career #s just provides the full body of work, you can do the playoffs too but fair warning the results will be similar.

Don't shoot the messenger because the Cavs mortgaged the whole future for a guy who has equivalent stats to someone you believe isn't very good.

But they didn't trade for the 22 year old version of Beal, they traded for the current one.

Ok, so you didn't look, the point was he wasn't a scorer or efficient his first few years in the league...

Beal's efficiency peaked when he was averaging around 8 FTA per game in the two seasons between 2019-21. Since then it's dropped, as have his attempts as he doesn't get rewarded as much anymore for forcing tough shots.

Not for nothing, but Beal hasn't managed more than 60 regular-season games since 2018-19. I happen to think that 35% of a team's cap space is a lot to commit to a guy missing more than 25% of the season on a regular basis.

No one has had anything good to say about his defense in at least 5 years. Give me the younger, two-way Beal who actually stayed on the court.

[ijspeelman]

Yet neither guy has ever reached a conference final.

Neither has Joel Embiid, Tracy McGrady, Dominique Wilkins, or Yao Ming.

T-Mac did in 2013 but to the others those are quite the exceptions to hang your hat on.

Oops on TMac. I guess I was thinking about him as the ""main"" guy, but he did make it.

[JujitsuFlip]

But they didn't trade for the 22 year old version of Beal, they traded for the current one.

Ok, so you didn't look, the point was he wasn't a scorer or efficient his first few years in the league...

Beal's efficiency peaked when he was averaging around 8 FTA per game in the two seasons between 2019-21. Since then it's dropped, as have his attempts as he doesn't get rewarded as much anymore for forcing tough shots.

Not for nothing, but Beal hasn't managed more than 60 regular-season games since 2018-19. I happen to think that 35% of a team's cap space is a lot to commit to a guy missing more than 25% of the season on a regular basis.

No one has had anything good to say about his defense in at least 5 years. Give me the younger, two-way Beal who actually stayed on the court.

Mitchell is a 2 way Beal? Oof, not sure I would agree with that.

If all it took to land Beal was Love and a bunch of 2nds, I'd much rather do that than 6 first rounders and an All-Star.

[ijspeelman]

I am surprised by how much the box score stats look similar for Mitchell and Beal, but if you had asked me before our trade who was better I'd still easily say Mitchell.

[jbk1234]

Ok, so you didn't look, the point was he wasn't a scorer or efficient his first few years in the league...

Beal's efficiency peaked when he was averaging around 8 FTA per game in the two seasons between 2019-21. Since then it's dropped, as have his attempts as he doesn't get rewarded as much anymore for forcing tough shots.

Not for nothing, but Beal hasn't managed more than 60 regular-season games since 2018-19. I happen to think that 35% of a team's cap space is a lot to commit to a guy missing more than 25% of the season on a regular basis.

No one has had anything good to say about his defense in at least 5 years. Give me the younger, two-way Beal who actually stayed on the court.

Mitchell is a 2 way Beal? Oof, not sure I would agree with that.

If all it took to land Beal was Love and a bunch of 2nds, I'd much rather do that than 6 first rounders and an All-Star.

I don't think Beal was waiving his NTC to come to Cleveland without Mitchell on the roster.

[ijspeelman]

Beal's efficiency peaked when he was averaging around 8 FTA per game in the two seasons between 2019-21. Since then it's dropped, as have his attempts as he doesn't get rewarded as much anymore for forcing tough shots.

Not for nothing, but Beal hasn't managed more than 60 regular-season games since 2018-19. I happen to think that 35% of a team's cap space is a lot to commit to a guy missing more than 25% of the season on a regular basis.

No one has had anything good to say about his defense in at least 5 years. Give me the younger, two-way Beal who actually stayed on the court.

Mitchell is a 2 way Beal? Oof, not sure I would agree with that.

If all it took to land Beal was Love and a bunch of 2nds, I'd much rather do that than 6 first rounders and an All-Star.

I don't think Beal was waiving his NTC to come to Cleveland without Mitchell on the roster.

Mitchell's contract is also much, much friendlier if we had to move on. Beal's contract is basically an albatross. I am surprised Washington got anything for him.

Beal is currently a non-all star that will be making $57mil when he is 33.

If Mitchell accepts his PO, he would be making $37mil at 29 (or if he declines the PO, $35mil at 28).

[jbk1234]

Mitchell is a 2 way Beal? Oof, not sure I would agree with that.

If all it took to land Beal was Love and a bunch of 2nds, I'd much rather do that than 6 first rounders and an All-Star.

I don't think Beal was waiving his NTC to come to Cleveland without Mitchell on the roster.

Mitchell's contract is also much, much friendlier if we had to move on. Beal's contract is basically an albatross. I am surprised Washington got anything for him.

Beal is currently a non-all star that will be making $57mil when he is 33.

If Mitchell accepts his PO, he would be making $37mil at 29 (or if he declines the PO, $35mil at 28).

Yeah, the fact that NTC transfers to the new team would scare the **** out of me. Phoenix and Beal are probably married until the end of that contract now. If things don't work out, they are so, so screwed.

[JujitsuFlip]

Beal's efficiency peaked when he was averaging around 8 FTA per game in the two seasons between 2019-21. Since then it's dropped, as have his attempts as he doesn't get rewarded as much anymore for forcing tough shots.

Not for nothing, but Beal hasn't managed more than 60 regular-season games since 2018-19. I happen to think that 35% of a team's cap space is a lot to commit to a guy missing more than 25% of the season on a regular basis.

No one has had anything good to say about his defense in at least 5 years. Give me the younger, two-way Beal who actually stayed on the court.

Mitchell is a 2 way Beal? Oof, not sure I would agree with that.

If all it took to land Beal was Love and a bunch of 2nds, I'd much rather do that than 6 first rounders and an All-Star.

I don't think Beal was waiving his NTC to come to Cleveland without Mitchell on the roster.

I agree, ijs Cavs kinda got bent over. I'd honestly rather have old man KD than Mitchell, for similar packages.

[KuruptedCav]

There's no way the Cavs can keep up with teams like the Suns who just acquired 2 studs for less than the Cavs surrendered for Mitchell.

Setting aside what the Suns gave up for Durant (and it was arguably more than what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell), is Beal a stud?

Is that even a question? lol

3x All-Star and 1 time All-NBA. If he's not a stud, we're in trouble because Cavs traded for a very similar player.

Player 1 career numbers: 22.1ppg/4.3apg/4.1rpg/1.1 stl/.4 blk/2.2 foul/2.5 TO

Player 2 career numbers: 24.6ppg/4.5apg/4.2rpg/1.3 stl/.3 blk/2.5 foul/2.8 TO

Player 1 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.4% TS

Player 2 career shooting: 52.2% eFG and 56.5% TS

Might wanna be very careful how you answer your own question.

29 year old averaging 51 games per year over the last 4 years, with a declining 3ptRate since 2018 to go along with a climbing ToV rate. Beal exited his peak a while ago.

Mitchell is 26 years old, healthier, a better shooter, plays okay defense, and I struggle to find an advanced state that doesn’t favor him.

Beal is the type of trade you make when your pieces are in place and you are desperately trying to get over the hump. Without Mitchell the Cavs don’t have the team in place to make that type of deal.

This is where handling of Love went awry and why they need to bring back LeVert.

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