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All we hear about is how LeBron was never given a chance to win because of the talent (or lack thereof) that the team put around him. I'll give you that the coaching was horrible, but the talent?

This year, he had Shaq, Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams (all former All-Stars, none longer ago than three years). When they saw that they needed a guy who could defend on the ball, they went out and got Jamario Moon (who Mike Brown completely misused). When they needed a perimeter scorer, they got Anthony Parker (see Jamario Moon). When they saw that they needed a big body in the middle to challenge guys like Howard, they got Shaq (who Brown left on the bench in the fourth while KG abused Jamison underneath).

Add to this guys like Daniel Gibson, who is a great "spark" of the bench guy - except that he rarely came off the bench and when he did, he stayed in too long and had to play defense. Delonte, on the other hand, is a great on-the-ball defender who was routinely used as a scoring option.

What I'm saying is that all of the pieces were there. Did the Cavs have a Pau Gasol for LeBron? No. But they weren't a bunch of Shannon Browns or Jordan Farmars, either.

I believe that the cavs had the best record in the league this year because of their roster and it is the same reason they were a average playoff team. They had alot of good to average talent from 2-12, but not great players to complement lebron. So when there was an injury during the season it was easy to fill holes and not lose much. Now when the playoffs came around it was apparent that lebron was the best player on the court but the 2nd, 3rd and sometimes fourth best players were on the opposition's team. Bottom line is kobe didnt win until he had one of the other two best players on his team and lebron will not win until he get's the same help.

Chicago series...
1) LBJ
2) Rose

Boston series...
1)Lebron
2)Rondo
3)pierce
4)Garnett/Allen

It was the system not the players.

Its often said that LeBron makes bad players look good. Well, in Brown's offense he also made great players look good. The system was just horrendously flawed because of the dependency on the ball being in LeBron's hands at the top of the key.

I've said it a bunch, but its relevant so I'll say it again. Jamison has been dropping 20ppg since grade school, he didn't just forget how to score 2/3 of the way through this season. Mo Williams was an electric scorer in Milwaukee, but in our offense we turned him into a stationary jump shooter. Parker, West, Z...same story, underutilized talent.

How much can you really expect guys to help when LeBron is holding the ball until there is 8 seconds left on the shot clock? What exactly do you want them to do?...Brown turned them all into passive jump shooters.

In the playoffs it was magnified because LeBron (for whatever reason) threw them all under the bus. Nearly every play in the offense starts with LeBron drawing attention, making a move, and then deciding to finish or dish to a shooter. When LeBron chooses not to make a move but rather pass the ball around the perimeter the offense stalls and everyone looks bad for 'not producing'. In reality they're all doing exactly what they were supposed to do - wait for LeBron to make his move.
...its almost like what would happen in football if the center randomly decided to direct snap to the RB every play.

jc23 wrote:I believe that the cavs had the best record in the league this year because of their roster and it is the same reason they were a average playoff team. They had alot of good to average talent from 2-12, but not great players to complement lebron. So when there was an injury during the season it was easy to fill holes and not lose much. Now when the playoffs came around it was apparent that lebron was the best player on the court but the 2nd, 3rd and sometimes fourth best players were on the opposition's team. Bottom line is kobe didnt win until he had one of the other two best players on his team and lebron will not win until he get the same help.

Chicago series...
1) LBJ
2) Rose

Boston series...
1)Lebron
2)Rondo
3)pierce
4)Garnett/Allen

This is the smartest response that I've seen on this site aside from my own. I agree completely

tidho wrote:It was the system not the players.

Its often said that LeBron makes bad players look good. Well, in Brown's offense he also made great players look good. The system was just horrendously flawed because of the dependency on the ball being in LeBron's hands at the top of the key.

I've said it a bunch, but its relevant so I'll say it again. Jamison has been dropping 20ppg since grade school, he didn't just forget how to score 2/3 of the way through this season. Mo Williams was an electric scorer in Milwaukee, but in our offense we turned him into a stationary jump shooter. Parker, West, Z...same story, underutilized talent.

How much can you really expect guys to help when LeBron is holding the ball until there is 8 seconds left on the shot clock? What exactly do you want them to do?...Brown turned them all into passive jump shooters.

In the playoffs it was magnified because LeBron (for whatever reason) threw them all under the bus. Nearly every play in the offense starts with LeBron drawing attention, making a move, and then deciding to finish or dish to a shooter. When LeBron chooses not to make a move but rather pass the ball around the perimeter the offense stalls and everyone looks bad for 'not producing'. In reality they're all doing exactly what they were supposed to do - wait for LeBron to make his move.
...its almost like what would happen in football if the center randomly decided to direct snap to the RB every play.

Awesome. That's exactly what I've been trying to say this whole this with exactly the succinctness that I've been unable to come up with.

A guy like Big Baby Davis would never get a chance to grow from a clumsy rookie to a factor in a finals game. No way. In this system miracles only happen because of James. There is no no-name guy who will step up and winn an important game or get better every year because they're growing up together as a team. Yes you have Hickson. Do you see him going Big Baby anytime soon? If you have 3 players who were at some point scoring fiends, how come the only time I remeber someone actually contributing big was Mo's dunk against Chicago( and i think Moon dropped some 3s at one point). It's like you have to be happy if your starters do their job and get those 15 points. Why didn't Jamison sudenly errupt for 15 in the 4th? Or Shaq getting touches so he would have one dominating game? Don't say because they suddenly started to suck so much they can't get hot for one game in the playoffs. Cleveland has a guy, who is no more than an energy guy- Leon Powe. Do you remeber he dropped 20 in the finals 2 years ago? There is simply no chance of him doing that with the Cavs. How come someone always steps up for the Celtics? Think 'bout that:)

The Cavs have had people do that just like Gibson did in 2007, or Delonte scoring like 20 or so points in a row earlier this season. The problem with the Cavs is still the system.

Tell me again why Brown never ran a LeBron/Mo pick 'n' roll? Even LeBron/Parker on the pick 'n' pop seems like it would have been effective. I also do not understand the logic in having LeBron initiate plays from the top of the arc. Would it not make more sense to have Mo bring up the ball, set some screens for LeBron, get LeBron the ball within 18 feet (with the defense moving), and then let him make a play? Why did Brown constantly let the defense dig in on our best player? It is almost as if they are saying LeBron is a great play maker, with great court vision, as long as he has the ball at the top of the arc.

mcfly1204 wrote:Tell me again why Brown never ran a LeBron/Mo pick 'n' roll? Even LeBron/Parker on the pick 'n' pop seems like it would have been effective. I also do not understand the logic in having LeBron initiate plays from the top of the arc. Would it not make more sense to have Mo bring up the ball, set some screens for LeBron, get LeBron the ball within 18 feet (with the defense moving), and then let him make a play? Why did Brown constantly let the defense dig in on our best player? It is almost as if they are saying LeBron is a great play maker, with great court vision, as long as he has the ball at the top of the arc.

Part of me thinks some of the blame has to go on Lebron for this. He is more comfortable at the top of the key facing the action, so that is where he wants and gets the ball.

IF we are going to do that though, the coaches should have had Mo coming off a series of screens like the Celtics do with Ray Allen (everyone wants to hammer Mo for having off shooting games, look at Ray, it happens to the best of them).

We had plenty of talent to win the title this year. Our coach **** it up. Ranking the best players in a specific order is stupid. Some of our players are not asked to do what others are. It is extremely frustrating to see the whole team being ripped apart for one man's shortcomings. (Mike Brown) Andy was a 2nd team all NBA defender, why did we not play him more on KG?? 2nd team, meaning he was the 2nd best PF defender in the league. THAT is a talent. Against the Celtics had we played Andy on KG as much as possible and played Moon more on Rondo we would have won that series. We could have matched up with any team in the league.

Against the Celtics
Shaq-Perkins
Andy-KG
Jamison-Pierce (on offense we could have posted Pierce up, Jamison's problem was he was just way to short to guard KG in the post--Pierce may have gotten some better looks on offense, but they would not have been the easy 4 ft post ups KG was getting)
Lebron-Allen
Mo-Rondo

With Moon, Z, Gibson and Parker off the bench. I would normally want Delonte, but he was just missing in action. Actually I would prob start Z in place of Shaq also, Z spaces the floor and pulls Perkins out of the paint..and Perkins is not good enough on offense to make us pay for playing Z (unlike Dwight)..and Z plays pretty good help D, alters a lot of shots. Yeah I know, that would never fly with Shaq..as a coach my job is to win, not kiss the players asses.

If you look at my new starting lineup---we now contain KG and we force them into a horrible mismatch on the other end...who guards Lebron? Ray Allen? Rondo? Do they put Pierce on him with Allen on Jamison? Jamison would get 40 ppg if they did that. A coach's job is to create mismatches and attack those. I bet Doc Rivers was just shocked that we kept guarding KG the same way the entire series. We should have just left Mo on Rondo and had better help D, no PG in the league can stay in front of Rondo without help..when your help is Jamison and Shaq, your in trouble.

I could go on for days, but the facts are we had the flippin talent, how and when and the combo of players we played is still a mystery to me.

Sometimes i wish we could have one year with our exact same team but no Lebron just so we know for sure how good this guys really are. I hate to admit it but i think LBJ with the Lakers or Orlando or Bostons or honestly any other top teams supporting cast would be a multiple championship team. Having someone like Rondo, or Deron Williams or hell even Jameer Nelson instead of Mo would do so much for our team. Shaq is three or four years too late to help us. We have the best player in the world, possibly the best player of all time, surrounded with a mediocre team full of also rans and has beens.

Ballah wrote:Sometimes i wish we could have one year with our exact same team but no Lebron just so we know for sure how good this guys really are. I hate to admit it but i think LBJ with the Lakers or Orlando or Bostons or honestly any other top teams supporting cast would be a multiple championship team. Having someone like Rondo, or Deron Williams or hell even Jameer Nelson instead of Mo would do so much for our team. Shaq is three or four years too late to help us. We have the best player in the world, possibly the best player of all time, surrounded with a mediocre team full of also rans and has beens.

Mo can get to the rim, and is a better shooter than all of the PG's mentioned, but the results are very dependent on the role that the coach gives them.

TheOUTLAW wrote:The Cavs have had people do that just like Gibson did in 2007, or Delonte scoring like 20 or so points in a row earlier this season. The problem with the Cavs is still the system.

Spot on with that. The "system", or I should just call it Le-ISO is the major problem here, not the players. It may succeed in the regular season, but come the playoffs, it's a team game.. It is absurd to think that running a predictable offense will be successful against teams like Orlando and Boston. Which is why I wasn't too confident heading into the season when Kuester left for Detroit, and when Mike Brown gave no care about the offense during training camp and pre season.. And the way he coached in the Orlando and Boston series is just inexcusable. So it is only reasonable to hire a coach who will actually run a system that includes the whole team, and of course one who knows how to make in game adjustments and rotations.

I agree completely that Brown and his "system" were the main problem with this team in the playoffs the last two years. However, dont think that Lebron doesnt play a role as well. He LIKES playing at the top of the key with the ball in his hands. Its how he gets his double digit assists.
If Lebron was a post player, offensively his assists would go down. He would score more efficiently, and he would rebound better, but his assists would go way down. And he wouldnt get to heave those 30 foot heat checks he seems to love so much as often as he does.
We need a coach to demand that he plays closer to the basket, and not be so predictable.

tidho wrote:It was the system not the players.

Its often said that LeBron makes bad players look good. Well, in Brown's offense he also made great players look good. The system was just horrendously flawed because of the dependency on the ball being in LeBron's hands at the top of the key.

I've said it a bunch, but its relevant so I'll say it again. Jamison has been dropping 20ppg since grade school, he didn't just forget how to score 2/3 of the way through this season. Mo Williams was an electric scorer in Milwaukee, but in our offense we turned him into a stationary jump shooter. Parker, West, Z...same story, underutilized talent.

How much can you really expect guys to help when LeBron is holding the ball until there is 8 seconds left on the shot clock? What exactly do you want them to do?...Brown turned them all into passive jump shooters.

In the playoffs it was magnified because LeBron (for whatever reason) threw them all under the bus. Nearly every play in the offense starts with LeBron drawing attention, making a move, and then deciding to finish or dish to a shooter. When LeBron chooses not to make a move but rather pass the ball around the perimeter the offense stalls and everyone looks bad for 'not producing'. In reality they're all doing exactly what they were supposed to do - wait for LeBron to make his move.
...its almost like what would happen in football if the center randomly decided to direct snap to the RB every play.

Spot on. Impressive post.

Top 6 playoff minutes

Playoff PER
LeBron 28.4
Mo 12.0
Jamsion 14.4
Parker 9.8
West 8.8
Varejao 11.5

His teammates didn't play well in the playoffs. That's just a fact. Players 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 played below average.

spurket wrote:Top 6 playoff minutes

Playoff PER
LeBron 28.4
Mo 12.0
Jamsion 14.4
Parker 9.8
West 8.8
Varejao 11.5

His teammates didn't play well in the playoffs. That's just a fact. Players 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 played below average.

Stop putting out stats you simply do not understand. If you would've read the 14 other post in front of you, you woulda understood the reason for the teammates shortcomings.

jc23 wrote:I believe that the cavs had the best record in the league this year because of their roster and it is the same reason they were a average playoff team. They had alot of good to average talent from 2-12, but not great players to complement lebron. So when there was an injury during the season it was easy to fill holes and not lose much. Now when the playoffs came around it was apparent that lebron was the best player on the court but the 2nd, 3rd and sometimes fourth best players were on the opposition's team. Bottom line is kobe didnt win until he had one of the other two best players on his team and lebron will not win until he get's the same help.

Chicago series...
1) LBJ
2) Rose

Boston series...
1)Lebron
2)Rondo
3)pierce
4)Garnett/Allen

I think this post is pretty accurate.

The Cavs 'support cast' was good enough to win the most games during the regular season. LeBron is the one who quit in the Boston series and the rest of the team followed.

It's funny how in a few weeks we are back to the weak supporting cast which totally gets LeBron off the hook.

Not a weak supporting cast but still too dependent on LeBron being stellar to deal with LeBron playing with what is in effect a fairly minor injury.

I still say that teams as deep as the Cavs help you during the season but it's how your top 7 or 8 players are that get you a championship. The Cavs 1 to 15 are better than most teams, but you really don't need those later guys. However, the Cavs should have tried more when it was evident how LeBron was going to play. I thought that Gibson should have gotten more run all season really believing that his shooting would be needed at some point. Moon and Hickson should have gotten more consistent minutes as well during the Boston series.

As a Chicago fan, I normally don't chime in on this board, but I thought I'd add a little perspective.

For comparison's sake, I'd say the Cavs have a much better supporting cast for Lebron than do alot of the other FAs. I'd say the Suns have a better cast for Amare and Utah has a more complete core. The Raptors aren't too bad, but I'd still take the Cavs supporting players over them. And then there's the Heat. That team is atrocious. If ever there was an FA that should leave his team, it should be Wade.