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Yes this is reactionary, but the Cavs just don't look good. Sure last year we were bad but at least we could score a few points at times. Now, nobody can shoot. I'm not sure I've ever seen a collection of talented players play so poorly together.

i know man this is ridiculous getting beaten by the bobs is unacceptable and irving is looking bad out there whats going on with this team i do expect playoffs this year if not what are we doing as a franchise suck forever? i feel we have the pieces to make a splash but for some reason the pieces are not fitting is it the coaching staff or the players are just not fitting together

I was worried when I heard Waiters wasn't playing. Our perimeter/back-court defense is bad enough with him in the game. When he is out it looks a lot like bull fighters with capes. Kyrie doesn't want to play point guard. I'm worried he is going to turn into Monta Ellis. Jack, while an average combo guard, is less of a legit point guard than Livingston. We currently have no real point guards on the team. We miss Ellington's outside shooting. CJ is our best small forward and he needs to come off the bench. Our true centers are Bynum and Zeller. Andy doesn't seem to be the same player.

Result of poor drafting. Chris Grant needs to be fired, stop defending him people. The evidence is right in front of you, the draft picks were questionable. They obviously were not drafted based on fit, and sure as hell don't seem to be the BPA looking back.

I'm pretty sure they were drafted on upside. But one of the biggest disappointments this year is Kyrie. He looks incredibly overrated. And, rumor has it he's not taking well to coaching. That alone will make him a career loser.

All I know is that if we land another top 5 pick this year, I don't want Grant anywhere near it trying to be cute and passing on the big name prospects for some bum no one has heard of.

The only problem is that I think Grant has been more right that wrong.

fart wrote:Result of poor drafting. Chris Grant needs to be fired, stop defending him people. The evidence is right in front of you, the draft picks were questionable. They obviously were not drafted based on fit, and sure as hell don't seem to be the BPA looking back.

I actually am much less concerned with our drafting than our off-season signings. If we had taken Valuncious instead of Thompson, I can't say we are that much better now. We probably take Robinson instead of Waiters in 2012 (BPA) if we don't have Thompson. Bennett looks questionable but McLemore can't break the starting rotation (on the Kings) and Oladipo can't break the starting rotation (on the Hornets). Even Barnes isn't starting (and I am not convinced he will be a better player than Waiters). All of these rookies come out with one year of college ball and need time to develop. Kyrie played 11 games for coach K and now that he is actually being asked to play within a team framework - it shows.

The problem is that Jack, Clark and Bynum don't appear to be any better than Livingston, Ellington, and Speights. A reasonable argument can be played that they are worse.

TheOUTLAW wrote:The only problem is that I think Grant has been more right that wrong.

Yea, as indicated by our record

Young players don't often immediately translate into wins. I figured you'd have understood that by now.

TheOUTLAW wrote:Young players don't often immediately translate into wins. I figured you'd have understood that by now.

You guys kill me with your excuses. I give up with you people, keep waiting for Bennett/Waiters/Thompson to develop into all-stars. I have a feeling you will be waiting for a long time

fart wrote:

TheOUTLAW wrote:Young players don't often immediately translate into wins. I figured you'd have understood that by now.

You guys kill me with your excuses. I give up with you people, keep waiting for Bennett/Waiters/Thompson to develop into all-stars. I have a feeling you will be waiting for a long time

Thanks emoticon man, but who said that any of them were going to be all stars? I'm not sure any of the people that you are so famously fixated with will become al stars either. But then, it takes more than just all stars to make a good team.

BTW how is that even an excuse. It's just a well known truth to just about everyone but you.

The guys they "should have taken instead" aren't all-stars either. That's a silly point to even make.
The draft picks really haven't been that big a problem.

As others have noted, it seems the biggest issue is not having a true point guard. Jack seemingly was a great addition in term of overall talent, but he wasn't a great fit given that he's so stylistically similar to Waiters and Irving.

Small Forward obviously remains a problem too. Its tough without being willing to commit any money to get players in here, but the Cavaliers definitely look like a team that needs to make a move.

It happens.

You have to many young players without any clear fit or winning identity. Kyrie, Waiter and Bennett have talent, but not sure any off them are the leader you need. Should have drafted VO. He would drive this team.

Brynum in my book is a non factor. May as well act like he isn't on the roster. He is damaged goods. Varejao is also damaged goods.

You over paid for Jack, but I really liked.

The next move is to give up some young talent for a known solid vet. Its what Washington had to do and why they traded McGee and Nick for Nene and acquired Okafor and Trevor A. Okafor got hurt and they traded for Gortat. So you can build up with young players, but you better be damn good at evaluating personalities.

Cleveland in my view needs to add some vets like a Boozier. Someone that might have a questionable contract but who has played deep in the playoffs. Even overpaid end of the rope vets on short contracts would help.

Teams that have to many young players makes it hard to get over the hump unless you are really good at mixing young personalities and you find a player like VO who has an endless motor to get better. Clearly Orlando is knows how to do this. They now have VO, T Harris, Andrew Nicholson and Nikola and they have balanced that with vets like Afflalo and Jameer Nelson and even a Jason Maxiell.

Orlando is doing it the right way. Nice group of young players that fit together sprinkled with some productive vets.

Bennett was a terrible pick for CLE. Should have take VO. Bennett was a huge risk and even if he works out, he will never be the leader VO is.

^ In my opinion veteran leadership is overrated. I think teams can be successful even if they have a young leader. Actually player leader isn't even necessary (the coach can be the leader) what is most important is teamwork and comradery.

If you have player that want to play with each other and buy into the system of the coach then the team can at least be a bit successful. That's why when you see irving (the PG) take 20 shots a game and try to be a hero and fail miserably you wonder how his teammates feel about playing with him. I have a feeling they are not happy.

Ofcourse this is merely speculation, just something to think about. Don't take it too seriously, because i know some passionate fans can become overly defensive.

hands11 wrote:It happens.

You have to many young players without any clear fit or winning identity. Kyrie, Waiter and Bennett have talent, but not sure any off them are the leader you need. Should have drafted VO. He would drive this team.

Brynum in my book is a non factor. May as well act like he isn't on the roster. He is damaged goods. Varejao is also damaged goods.

You over paid for Jack, but I really liked.

The next move is to give up some young talent for a known solid vet. Its what Washington had to do and why they traded McGee and Nick for Nene and acquired Okafor and Trevor A. Okafor got hurt and they traded for Gortat. So you can build up with young players, but you better be damn good at evaluating personalities.

Cleveland in my view needs to add some vets like a Boozier. Someone that might have a questionable contract but who has played deep in the playoffs. Even overpaid end of the rope vets on short contracts would help.

Teams that have to many young players makes it hard to get over the hump unless you are really good at mixing young personalities and you find a player like VO who has an endless motor to get better. Clearly Orlando is knows how to do this. They now have VO, T Harris, Andrew Nicholson and Nikola and they have balanced that with vets like Afflalo and Jameer Nelson and even a Jason Maxiell.

Orlando is doing it the right way. Nice group of young players that fit together sprinkled with some productive vets.

Bennett was a terrible pick for CLE. Should have take VO. Bennett was a huge risk and even if he works out, he will never be the leader VO is.

If I had to do the 2013 draft over again, I would have taken McLemore or MCW, and not VO. Let's see VO play an entire season as a starter before anointing him franchise savior. Orlando may trade AA and discover they have a downgrade on their hands at the 2 spot.

jbk1234 wrote:

hands11 wrote:It happens.

You have to many young players without any clear fit or winning identity. Kyrie, Waiter and Bennett have talent, but not sure any off them are the leader you need. Should have drafted VO. He would drive this team.

Brynum in my book is a non factor. May as well act like he isn't on the roster. He is damaged goods. Varejao is also damaged goods.

You over paid for Jack, but I really liked.

The next move is to give up some young talent for a known solid vet. Its what Washington had to do and why they traded McGee and Nick for Nene and acquired Okafor and Trevor A. Okafor got hurt and they traded for Gortat. So you can build up with young players, but you better be damn good at evaluating personalities.

Cleveland in my view needs to add some vets like a Boozier. Someone that might have a questionable contract but who has played deep in the playoffs. Even overpaid end of the rope vets on short contracts would help.

Teams that have to many young players makes it hard to get over the hump unless you are really good at mixing young personalities and you find a player like VO who has an endless motor to get better. Clearly Orlando is knows how to do this. They now have VO, T Harris, Andrew Nicholson and Nikola and they have balanced that with vets like Afflalo and Jameer Nelson and even a Jason Maxiell.

Orlando is doing it the right way. Nice group of young players that fit together sprinkled with some productive vets.

Bennett was a terrible pick for CLE. Should have take VO. Bennett was a huge risk and even if he works out, he will never be the leader VO is.

If I had to do the 2013 draft over again, I would have taken McLemore or MCW, and not VO. Let's see VO play an entire season as a starter before anointing him franchise savior. Orlando may trade AA and discover they have a downgrade on their hands at the 2 spot.

It's still just not an impressive draft class, and Im willing to reserve judgement rather than make a rash decision after 10 games. Tristan looked terrible for his entire first season, but is anyone (besides Fart) second guessing him at 4 now? Guards transition to the league a heck of a lot quicker than big men. That's the way it's always been, and the way it always will be.

Bennett has looked incredibly bad on offense and above average for a rookie on defense and on the boards. His role on this team in the future will be as an instant offense kind of guy off the bench. I dont think anyone in the front office or coaching staff expected him to be as good defensively or rebounding as he has been so far, and that's a definite added bonus.

I really liked Oladipo coming out, and think he's going to be a solid borderline all star at his peak kind of guy for Orlando. Im not sure he had a fit on this Cavs team, especially not with the signing of Jack. Waiters and Miles have been two of our three best players so far this season.. Oladipo probably wouldnt have even got a lot of burn on this team with the way those guys have been playing.

So lets just sit back and wait before we make end all be all judgements. That kind of thinking already looks pretty damn foolish with the progression of Tristan and yes, with the progression of Waiters.

No mention of Mike Brown...? He IS the reason why we're so anemic offensively. I saw this coming the exact moment we signed him.. Waiters and Tristan have both gotten better this year; it's just hard to see because of the way our offense is ran. Its not the players, its the coaching. Ohh, and Chris Grant has done pretty well in my eyes.

It looks to me like the players have not bought into what Brown's style of play. Kyrie being the main player to me. I know Brown's offense sucks, and always has, but the team looks disjointed on both ends of the floor.
Kyrie trying to be the hero is just the tip of the iceberg. It's the same thing Lebron had to do here, but he was big enough to drive through people where Kyrie isn't. The real problem is Brown. As a player it is easy to question what you are being told to do on defense when the coach doesn't know offense.
By that I mean expending the effort on defense and then being in a system that doesn't create easy baskets on offense has to be frustrating. Even on inbounds plays, or after timeouts the play called rarely results in an easy shot. It has always been this way with Brown.
When Fratello was here, the people complained about his offense, and the pace of the game, but his teams were talent deficient and that why he had to do that. And, his teams still played 500 ball. However, his inbounds plays, and coming off timeouts the team almost always got good looks. Fratello was the best coach at that part of the game the Cavs have ever had imo. Brown is below average everywhere but on defense.

tidho wrote:The draft picks really haven't been that big a problem.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Most deniable bunch I've ever encountered on the Internet.