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Trade Ideas (Part III)

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1181 » by JonFromVA » Mon Nov 4, 2019 11:07 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I'm fine not trading them early for a poor return, particularly TT, as he adds value to a young team in a multitude of ways. However, as the deadline approaches, I think the Cavs need to ask themselves whether they're interested in bringing these guys back, and if so, at what price tag and for how long. Cavs will have just over $30M in cap space this summer. Cap flexibility is one of the most important assets a rebuilding team can maintain. If these guys are willing to take a hair cut and do two-year deals with a team option in that second year, then it makes some sense.

But I'm skeptical either TT or Clarkson are looking for short-term and team-friendly deals (I'm skeptical Clarkson would return with Beilein as the head coach anyway). Klutch already got us twice. They got the Bucks with that Bledsoe extension last year and that KCP contract could prove really problematic for the Lakers. You lock yourself into a mediocre roster by paying high-end role players and you'll have a much harder time achieving escape velocity from your rebuild.

The only long-term contracts the Cavs should enter into are ones where that player will always be a trade asset because of how team-friendly the contract is. Nance will always be worth his contract. Cedi will always be worth his. There will always be a market for good role players who make less than 10% of the cap.

In sum, if a team offers expiring contracts and a couple quality seconds for either of these guys at the deadline, and that's all we can get, I'm probably taking it.


I guess it depends what you mean by quality 2's because a couple of picks expected to fall in the 31-36 range is basically equivalent to a late first; but easier said then done when you're dealing with playoff teams.

Anyway, this is all out of our control. We have some players with talent if anyone desperately needs that talent. We have expiring contracts that we can deal for future salary. And if we do nothing, we have cap space.

But I don't believe our only goal with cap space is to try to absorb bad contracts and turn it in to more picks. With a player development coach, we should be searching high and low for players we think will fit what Beilein wants and can grow with the team and if we find the right player - the length of commitment simply doesn't matter.

We can technically do all the above, but it all comes down to the opportunities we can discover or create.

I'm probably asking too much from Koby Altman even with Beilein's help, but we can hope ...


See when it comes to replacement level starters, or good role players, I think the length of the commitment matters more than anything else. It's not just because you can trade away cap space for picks, although that's important, it's because your trade opportunities are heavily dependent upon whether the contracts you have on your books are deemed to be good or bad around the league. You're ability to steal a RFA is dependent upon your available cap space. With it, you have options, and without it, you don't.

I think the biggest mistake teams make is locking their rosters up, for years, when their ceilings are meh or questionable. The Hornets tried desperately to remake that roster around Kemba his last couple of years but no one wanted what they were offering. The Bucks are ride or die with that roster until Giannis is a F.A. and I don't like their chances. Same with Houston and Harden. The Pistons are very limited in what they can add to Blake. Minny fans spend 2/3 of their time on the T&T board trying desperately to convince everyone else that Wiggins and Deing aren't *that bad* because they know they're on the clock with Towns.


I'm really uninterested in a championship or bust approach. So, we're going to continue to disagree on some really fundamental points. :)

If a player can help us win and he's signed at a price that commiserate with that value (to us), I don't have a problem. Plus the whole idea of player development of young free-agents is to turn a player another team thinks is just a role player in to an important piece for our team. If they develop positive trade value to other team's that's certainly a bonus, but not a necessity, IMO.

So, for instance, while the idea of pumping up the value of some of our players so we can get more in return for them in trade would be nice, I'd treat it as a secondary concern to making sure our primary players are getting the minutes they need to develop and that our team is pointed in the right direction. Any player that's impeding that goal should be dropped sooner rather than later with little concern for the sunk costs. If we identify we've drafted another "Dion Waiters" that's simply never going to do what we want or grow as a team player ... we should just move on ASAP.

As for the Hornets, since drafting Kemba at 9, they've had plenty of draft picks over the years including a #2, a #4, two more #9's, two #11's, and a #12.

Isn't that enough?

Their problem is that other than Kemba, they haven't drafted very well, nor have they raised the value of any of the players they did draft; and then stubbornly sat on their hands and watched Kemba walk rather than re-sign him or get something for him.

They've done a crappy job - something we're not immune from, but hopefully we're getting better.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1182 » by jbk1234 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 4:51 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I guess it depends what you mean by quality 2's because a couple of picks expected to fall in the 31-36 range is basically equivalent to a late first; but easier said then done when you're dealing with playoff teams.

Anyway, this is all out of our control. We have some players with talent if anyone desperately needs that talent. We have expiring contracts that we can deal for future salary. And if we do nothing, we have cap space.

But I don't believe our only goal with cap space is to try to absorb bad contracts and turn it in to more picks. With a player development coach, we should be searching high and low for players we think will fit what Beilein wants and can grow with the team and if we find the right player - the length of commitment simply doesn't matter.

We can technically do all the above, but it all comes down to the opportunities we can discover or create.

I'm probably asking too much from Koby Altman even with Beilein's help, but we can hope ...


See when it comes to replacement level starters, or good role players, I think the length of the commitment matters more than anything else. It's not just because you can trade away cap space for picks, although that's important, it's because your trade opportunities are heavily dependent upon whether the contracts you have on your books are deemed to be good or bad around the league. You're ability to steal a RFA is dependent upon your available cap space. With it, you have options, and without it, you don't.

I think the biggest mistake teams make is locking their rosters up, for years, when their ceilings are meh or questionable. The Hornets tried desperately to remake that roster around Kemba his last couple of years but no one wanted what they were offering. The Bucks are ride or die with that roster until Giannis is a F.A. and I don't like their chances. Same with Houston and Harden. The Pistons are very limited in what they can add to Blake. Minny fans spend 2/3 of their time on the T&T board trying desperately to convince everyone else that Wiggins and Deing aren't *that bad* because they know they're on the clock with Towns.


I'm really uninterested in a championship or bust approach. So, we're going to continue to disagree on some really fundamental points. :)

If a player can help us win and he's signed at a price that commiserate with that value (to us), I don't have a problem. Plus the whole idea of player development of young free-agents is to turn a player another team thinks is just a role player in to an important piece for our team. If they develop positive trade value to other team's that's certainly a bonus, but not a necessity, IMO.

So, for instance, while the idea of pumping up the value of some of our players so we can get more in return for them in trade would be nice, I'd treat it as a secondary concern to making sure our primary players are getting the minutes they need to develop and that our team is pointed in the right direction. Any player that's impeding that goal should be dropped sooner rather than later with little concern for the sunk costs. If we identify we've drafted another "Dion Waiters" that's simply never going to do what we want or grow as a team player ... we should just move on ASAP.

As for the Hornets, since drafting Kemba at 9, they've had plenty of draft picks over the years including a #2, a #4, two more #9's, two #11's, and a #12.

Isn't that enough?

Their problem is that other than Kemba, they haven't drafted very well, nor have they raised the value of any of the players they did draft; and then stubbornly sat on their hands and watched Kemba walk rather than re-sign him or get something for him.

They've done a crappy job - something we're not immune from, but hopefully we're getting better.
Yeah, I believe the goal of the organization should be to build a roster capable of contending in the conference finals. If your long-term ceiling is a 7th seed, youre doing it wrong. So we do have a fundamental difference of opinion there.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1183 » by JonFromVA » Tue Nov 5, 2019 5:19 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
See when it comes to replacement level starters, or good role players, I think the length of the commitment matters more than anything else. It's not just because you can trade away cap space for picks, although that's important, it's because your trade opportunities are heavily dependent upon whether the contracts you have on your books are deemed to be good or bad around the league. You're ability to steal a RFA is dependent upon your available cap space. With it, you have options, and without it, you don't.

I think the biggest mistake teams make is locking their rosters up, for years, when their ceilings are meh or questionable. The Hornets tried desperately to remake that roster around Kemba his last couple of years but no one wanted what they were offering. The Bucks are ride or die with that roster until Giannis is a F.A. and I don't like their chances. Same with Houston and Harden. The Pistons are very limited in what they can add to Blake. Minny fans spend 2/3 of their time on the T&T board trying desperately to convince everyone else that Wiggins and Deing aren't *that bad* because they know they're on the clock with Towns.


I'm really uninterested in a championship or bust approach. So, we're going to continue to disagree on some really fundamental points. :)

If a player can help us win and he's signed at a price that commiserate with that value (to us), I don't have a problem. Plus the whole idea of player development of young free-agents is to turn a player another team thinks is just a role player in to an important piece for our team. If they develop positive trade value to other team's that's certainly a bonus, but not a necessity, IMO.

So, for instance, while the idea of pumping up the value of some of our players so we can get more in return for them in trade would be nice, I'd treat it as a secondary concern to making sure our primary players are getting the minutes they need to develop and that our team is pointed in the right direction. Any player that's impeding that goal should be dropped sooner rather than later with little concern for the sunk costs. If we identify we've drafted another "Dion Waiters" that's simply never going to do what we want or grow as a team player ... we should just move on ASAP.

As for the Hornets, since drafting Kemba at 9, they've had plenty of draft picks over the years including a #2, a #4, two more #9's, two #11's, and a #12.

Isn't that enough?

Their problem is that other than Kemba, they haven't drafted very well, nor have they raised the value of any of the players they did draft; and then stubbornly sat on their hands and watched Kemba walk rather than re-sign him or get something for him.

They've done a crappy job - something we're not immune from, but hopefully we're getting better.
Yeah, I believe the goal of the organization should be to build a roster capable of contending in the conference finals. If your long-term ceiling is a 7th seed, youre doing it wrong. So we do have a fundamental difference of opinion there.


No, the goal of an organization should be to win championships - all of them - every year. The problem is there's no recipe how to achieve that. The only thing NBA champs have in common is they made some smart choices along the way and got lucky at some point too.

There's lots of ways the Cavs can try to get there ... and my preference is a model of constant improvement. That's something a FO can actually control through stuff like hiring the best people, using the best practices, making the most informed decisions, demanding accountability, experimenting in areas other teams have not, etc, etc.

Simply put, I'd rather be the Warriors or Spurs than the 76'ers, Thunder, or frankly even the Cavs. The LeBron-era was fun, but it was a non-Cleveland experience- very inorganic compared to the Miracle Cavs or the P&D Cavs.

We don't know where our path will end up, but our FO does get to choose the path we take. Some paths are going to be a lot more fun - regardless of the outcome. That's important.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1184 » by gflem » Tue Nov 5, 2019 11:07 pm

So, does the Zach Collins injury have any effect on the Blazers alleged interest in KLove? There had been some conversation here on RealGM that they could or should be interested, so I wonder if there were any real conversations between the Cavs and Blazers that the injury would be cause to restart talks?
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1185 » by Revenged25 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 11:26 pm

gflem wrote:So, does the Zach Collins injury have any effect on the Blazers alleged interest in KLove? There had been some conversation here on RealGM that they could or should be interested, so I wonder if there were any real conversations between the Cavs and Blazers that the injury would be cause to restart talks?


Do they even have anything we would want for Love?
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1186 » by jbk1234 » Wed Nov 6, 2019 12:12 am

Revenged25 wrote:
gflem wrote:So, does the Zach Collins injury have any effect on the Blazers alleged interest in KLove? There had been some conversation here on RealGM that they could or should be interested, so I wonder if there were any real conversations between the Cavs and Blazers that the injury would be cause to restart talks?


Do they even have anything we would want for Love?
They could theoretically put together a package that included Collins and two firsts, but their problem is filler. They really can't part with Whiteside or Bazemore right now. They'd have to wait until Nurkic came back.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1187 » by jbk1234 » Wed Nov 6, 2019 6:38 pm

Supposedly, there's some interest in Knight (although the source does mention a bad contract coming back)
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/cleveland-cavaliers-brandon-knight-nba-rumors/
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1188 » by Stillwater » Fri Nov 8, 2019 7:08 pm

which of these 3 examples of potential Love deals makes the most sense for both orgs?

1 : Love to ATL for Parsons expiring, Bruno Fernando,Hawks 2020 1st top 1 protected
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244878

2. Love to POR for Whiteside's expiring,Nassir Little,Moses Brown & Portland's 2021 first top 14 protected then unprotected in 2022 if not transferred in 21
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244887

3. Love to PHO along with rights to 2022 2nd from Washington for Tyler Johnson's expiring, Mikal Bridges and Dario Saric.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244891


Now I am not a believer this org will move him but I think all 3 of these are fair value swaps of they did.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1189 » by gflem » Sat Nov 9, 2019 3:30 pm

Stillwater wrote:which of these 3 examples of potential Love deals makes the most sense for both orgs?

1 : Love to ATL for Parsons expiring, Bruno Fernando,Hawks 2020 1st top 1 protected
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244878

2. Love to POR for Whiteside's expiring,Nassir Little,Moses Brown & Portland's 2021 first top 14 protected then unprotected in 2022 if not transferred in 21
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244887

3. Love to PHO along with rights to 2022 2nd from Washington for Tyler Johnson's expiring, Mikal Bridges and Dario Saric.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244891


Now I am not a believer this org will move him but I think all 3 of these are fair value swaps of they did.

I dont see Pho dealing Bridges, I could be wrong but right now they are the surprise of the NBA and I dont see them wanting to mess with what is goin on there.
Atl deal is interesting, and I had thought about Parsons in the past when he was at Memphis if there was a deal there. With all the young players in Atl I could at least see them considering moving a first if they thought Love was the right/missing piece to them taking a big step in the playoffs.
The Por deal makes the most sense to me for a couple of reasons. First, Nassir Little is a player that intrigues me, and second they are contenders right now, and while Love's contract would likely cap them out he would be a great fit offensively there. I dont see an unprotected pick at any point though I could see the protections diminish to maybe top 5 protected in a deal like this.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1190 » by Stillwater » Sat Nov 9, 2019 4:44 pm

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:which of these 3 examples of potential Love deals makes the most sense for both orgs?

1 : Love to ATL for Parsons expiring, Bruno Fernando,Hawks 2020 1st top 1 protected
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244878

2. Love to POR for Whiteside's expiring,Nassir Little,Moses Brown & Portland's 2021 first top 14 protected then unprotected in 2022 if not transferred in 21
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244887

3. Love to PHO along with rights to 2022 2nd from Washington for Tyler Johnson's expiring, Mikal Bridges and Dario Saric.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7244891


Now I am not a believer this org will move him but I think all 3 of these are fair value swaps of they did.

I dont see Pho dealing Bridges, I could be wrong but right now they are the surprise of the NBA and I dont see them wanting to mess with what is goin on there.
Atl deal is interesting, and I had thought about Parsons in the past when he was at Memphis if there was a deal there. With all the young players in Atl I could at least see them considering moving a first if they thought Love was the right/missing piece to them taking a big step in the playoffs.
The Por deal makes the most sense to me for a couple of reasons. First, Nassir Little is a player that intrigues me, and second they are contenders right now, and while Love's contract would likely cap them out he would be a great fit offensively there. I dont see an unprotected pick at any point though I could see the protections diminish to maybe top 5 protected in a deal like this.

I agree on PHO being better off not moving core pieces for win now ones, but all of their draft picks were win now picks and adding Rubio also was suggesting they are done rebuilding. I think they would do the deal even if they shouldn't and tbh I think Bridges is on the backburner for them with the other pieces they have esp rookie Cam Johnson and for KLove would do it without a seconds hesitation.
The ATL idea probably is the least likely , but given they lost Collins for violating drug policy rules, they may be looking for a different front court option that doesn't need to cheat. Collins maybe will come back the same player, but probably won't.
The Portland deal is the most likely to happen from the trade teams perspective given their current status and the need for Love esp with Collins out half the season or longer. Given the TB are projected in the early 20's for 1st round picks in 20 making the pick unprotected is absolutely a gamble they have to make if they want a play of Loves caliber esp considering the odds are all they are giving up is a mid 20's pick in 2021 anyway after adding KLove. The Portland deal is also the least likely to happen from the Cavs perspective and they may want more.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1191 » by jbk1234 » Sat Nov 9, 2019 7:28 pm

I think Portland is the most likely suitor. They'll want to swap Whiteside for someone else as soon as Nurkic is healthy. Their window is now.

I'm not sure how much interest the Cavs have in Little. IIRC, he was available when they took Windler. He hasn't really shown anything in his rookie season.

The Suns and The Pelicans probably have interest as well but neither of them will be as motivated as Portland.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1192 » by Stillwater » Sat Nov 9, 2019 11:54 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I think Portland is the most likely suitor. They'll want to swap Whiteside for someone else as soon as Nurkic is healthy. Their window is now.

I'm not sure how much interest the Cavs have in Little. IIRC, he was available when they took Windler. He hasn't really shown anything in his rookie season.

The Suns and The Pelicans probably have interest as well but neither of them will be as motivated as Portland.

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not sure about nas interest but portland picked him 1 pick before we took windler.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1193 » by gflem » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:29 am

jbk1234 wrote:I think Portland is the most likely suitor. They'll want to swap Whiteside for someone else as soon as Nurkic is healthy. Their window is now.

I'm not sure how much interest the Cavs have in Little. IIRC, he was available when they took Windler. He hasn't really shown anything in his rookie season.

The Suns and The Pelicans probably have interest as well but neither of them will be as motivated as Portland.

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IF the Pelicans have any interest they would certainly have the draft capital to make a deal. I'm not sure where Love would fit there. I think Zion is ultimately a PF and Love isn't a C.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1194 » by Stillwater » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:23 pm

gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I think Portland is the most likely suitor. They'll want to swap Whiteside for someone else as soon as Nurkic is healthy. Their window is now.

I'm not sure how much interest the Cavs have in Little. IIRC, he was available when they took Windler. He hasn't really shown anything in his rookie season.

The Suns and The Pelicans probably have interest as well but neither of them will be as motivated as Portland.

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IF the Pelicans have any interest they would certainly have the draft capital to make a deal. I'm not sure where Love would fit there. I think Zion is ultimately a PF and Love isn't a C.

eventually they will use Zion as a point forward ala Lebron James. Zion is already pretty amazing as a passer can drive with ease from the perimeter etc if Pels added Love to a Zion/ Hayes front court that could be scary esp with Za and NAW in the backcourt. that being said Cavs would have to reroute Jrue assuming he is the returning player
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1195 » by jbk1234 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 5:58 am

Despite what you read on the T&T board, it sounds like there are a lot of teams interested in Love.

Read on Twitter
?s=20

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1196 » by Stillwater » Sat Dec 7, 2019 6:02 am

so if love is being shopped id expect them to look for picks but also may be more interested in fits in Beileins system
i dont see love to portland still with melo there
i do think pho could be willing to part with bridges,carter and ty johnson +a protected 1st for love and mckinnie
i also like idea of trying yo pry markannen from chicago somehow.
atl is another possible if theyre getting impatient.
maybe love for parsons,jones,fernando and a lightly protected 2020.
it will prob end up being miami for olynyk , okpala , jj and a 2nd.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1197 » by gflem » Sat Dec 7, 2019 6:44 am

Stillwater wrote:so if love is being shopped id expect them to look for picks but also may be more interested in fits in Beileins system
i dont see love to portland still with melo there
i do think pho could be willing to part with bridges,carter and ty johnson +a protected 1st for love and mckinnie
i also like idea of trying yo pry markannen from chicago somehow.
atl is another possible if theyre getting impatient.
maybe love for parsons,jones,fernando and a lightly protected 2020.
it will prob end up being miami for olynyk , okpala , jj and a 2nd.

I'm not sure "Beilein's system" will play much if any role in what the Cav's will be asking for Love in any trade proposal. To think that would be a major factor is imo silly. It is unlikely that a team would include any core players or potential star players in any deal for Love. It's not that he isn't a difference maker, or an all star player, but that he isn't a player that can carry a team through a playoff series by himself. At his salary, he doesn't have negative value (regardless of the consensus on realgm) but he is only a positive to a contending team, which unless they have another teams frp isn't really going to entice the Cav's to move him. The team has plenty of cap space so if they do move him the motive will certainly be to acquire draft picks, as many as possible from whatever team wants him. Any players acquired would likely (and have to) be primarily to match salary.
Why would a non-contending team with a lottery pick trade for Love, tie up salary cap and give up the potential of a a high pick? Any team that would consider that would have to be capped out, and the Cav's would have to absorb a lot of long term money in order to get a potential top 10 pick imo.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1198 » by Stillwater » Sat Dec 7, 2019 7:14 am

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:so if love is being shopped id expect them to look for picks but also may be more interested in fits in Beileins system
i dont see love to portland still with melo there
i do think pho could be willing to part with bridges,carter and ty johnson +a protected 1st for love and mckinnie
i also like idea of trying yo pry markannen from chicago somehow.
atl is another possible if theyre getting impatient.
maybe love for parsons,jones,fernando and a lightly protected 2020.
it will prob end up being miami for olynyk , okpala , jj and a 2nd.

I'm not sure "Beilein's system" will play much if any role in what the Cav's will be asking for Love in any trade proposal. To think that would be a major factor is imo silly. It is unlikely that a team would include any core players or potential star players in any deal for Love. It's not that he isn't a difference maker, or an all star player, but that he isn't a player that can carry a team through a playoff series by himself. At his salary, he doesn't have negative value (regardless of the consensus on realgm) but he is only a positive to a contending team, which unless they have another teams frp isn't really going to entice the Cav's to move him. The team has plenty of cap space so if they do move him the motive will certainly be to acquire draft picks, as many as possible from whatever team wants him. Any players acquired would likely (and have to) be primarily to match salary.
Why would a non-contending team with a lottery pick trade for Love, tie up salary cap and give up the potential of a a high pick? Any team that would consider that would have to be capped out, and the Cav's would have to absorb a lot of long term money in order to get a potential top 10 pick imo.

my advice is dont try to make sense of the $ because some teams only care about ticket sales and making the playoffs every year not contending esp ones coming off a huge playoff drought.
i could easily see the cavs being more interested in a couple years of an overpaid and currently injured porter if it meant getting markannen than say a lottery protected first from a team in the lottery or worse a mid first at the price of a lesser player returning on a bad deal to match.
i di think they could get a first from a team fighting for a playoff spot aka pho. bridges is almost out of their rotation after drafting cam johnson , i dont think its unreasonable to think pho has turned the corner and is sick of being in the lottery. adding love locks them into a playoff spot etc.
fit will be a factor. beilein needs bigs who can shoot esp if hes losing klove
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1199 » by gflem » Sat Dec 7, 2019 2:56 pm

With Hood going out for Portland I wonder if they are going to get desperate? I don't know, I guess I just cant figure out how Love and Melo would work. That would be a disaster defensively, but who knows anything is possible.

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