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Trade Ideas (Part III)

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1381 » by jbk1234 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:17 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
While I agree, he checked out at times last season and we're not going to miss that, nor his injuries, or the frailty of his back. So, yes, he will look a lot better on a contender (for as long as he can stay healthy) but we wouldn't see that unless we became one.

So, yeah, I think there's a good argument to flush all the veterans who saw our rebuild as a joke until they were told they couldn't be traded unless they raised their trade value on the floor.

Keep Nance, he never cheated us, but Love, Drummond, and Tristan are easily expendable if we insist that our vets actually lead.

Make way for Dean Wade, Marques Bolden, Jordan Bell, whoever we draft, and whatever scraps we get in trade.

Sounds like a recipe for another lottery pick, which apparently is not the goal of the organization, though.
My response to that is that well run organizations don't sign good big men to those types of contracts and then destroy their trade value by force feeding selfish young guards a ton of starting minutes. The inability or unwillingness to correct that situation was borderline inexplicable. It's not like there's another good big man who would've tolerated that.


Well, not to state the obvious, but 4 coaches in 2 years is a pretty good indicator of how well the Cavs organization is run.

All we've ever done is wreck the trade value of our players, even when our focus was supposed to be raising their value to trade them.

So, whatever. If Kevin can't be patient, help teach, and lead by example; he can make room for someone who will at least be motivated to play hard.

What's the alternative? Flush our young players for mediocre vets and see if we can sneak in to the 8th seed?

No thanks, I'd rather keep shoveling **** on our young mushrooms in the dark and hope something useful eventually grows out of it.
I think Love was exceedingly patient. I suspect there is more than one big man in the NBA who would've settled that mess in the locker room a couple months in. Can we stop pretending that big men need to be fed is some type of next level MENSA concept please.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1382 » by Stillwater » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:20 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Reality in this case is yet to be determined. The more of these little side bets a team can collect, the more likely something will pay off.

they got a 2nd for agreeing to let Bucks lift restriction so the pick would transfer in 22 and have no chance of carrying over to 23 so they could move their 2024 pick .
The moves they made makes the Bucks a better roster in the East and probably makes them more of a contender. I mean maybe Giannis walks anyway but everything suggests the odds of that are slim


It's become very hard to pry an unprotected pick from a team because things go wrong more often than GM's and their owners would care to admit. As my probability example was attempting to demonstrate, it's not just whether Giannis says yes, it's all the other things that can happen to derail what appears to be a great plan.

And yes, the odds still say we end up with the something in the 25 to 30 range, but now we've got another 2nd round pick to play with, and a clear and free number one.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't help a team in our division? I'm personally pretty sympathetic with their situation, and hope they retain him rather than lose him to the next "super team".

what I am saying is what I saw was Altman doing Griff a solid and Griff making it harder for the cavs to get a better pick in 22 because after the trade the Bucks were better positioned to keep the freak
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1383 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:27 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:My response to that is that well run organizations don't sign good big men to those types of contracts and then destroy their trade value by force feeding selfish young guards a ton of starting minutes. The inability or unwillingness to correct that situation was borderline inexplicable. It's not like there's another good big man who would've tolerated that.


Well, not to state the obvious, but 4 coaches in 2 years is a pretty good indicator of how well the Cavs organization is run.

All we've ever done is wreck the trade value of our players, even when our focus was supposed to be raising their value to trade them.

So, whatever. If Kevin can't be patient, help teach, and lead by example; he can make room for someone who will at least be motivated to play hard.

What's the alternative? Flush our young players for mediocre vets and see if we can sneak in to the 8th seed?

No thanks, I'd rather keep shoveling **** on our young mushrooms in the dark and hope something useful eventually grows out of it.
I think Love was exceedingly patient. I suspect there is more than one big man in the NBA who would've settled that mess in the locker room a couple months in. Can we stop pretending that big men need to be fed is some type of next level MENSA concept please.


Kind of is ... when you draft a PG who never really learned to play PG. We went through the same thing when we drafted Kyrie and Dion.

What was the organizations plan to teach Collin how to run the point?

Shovel dirt on him, then draft Garland ...
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1384 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:31 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:they got a 2nd for agreeing to let Bucks lift restriction so the pick would transfer in 22 and have no chance of carrying over to 23 so they could move their 2024 pick .
The moves they made makes the Bucks a better roster in the East and probably makes them more of a contender. I mean maybe Giannis walks anyway but everything suggests the odds of that are slim


It's become very hard to pry an unprotected pick from a team because things go wrong more often than GM's and their owners would care to admit. As my probability example was attempting to demonstrate, it's not just whether Giannis says yes, it's all the other things that can happen to derail what appears to be a great plan.

And yes, the odds still say we end up with the something in the 25 to 30 range, but now we've got another 2nd round pick to play with, and a clear and free number one.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't help a team in our division? I'm personally pretty sympathetic with their situation, and hope they retain him rather than lose him to the next "super team".

what I am saying is what I saw was Altman doing Griff a solid and Griff making it harder for the cavs to get a better pick in 22 because after the trade the Bucks were better positioned to keep the freak


I'm assuming the Bucks and Pelicans find a way to get the deal done even without our co-operation, but even if we could had blocked the deal and Giannis walked, I suspect the Bucks would have found a way to make sure we never got a first out of that like we did to the Hawks.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1385 » by Stillwater » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:38 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
It's become very hard to pry an unprotected pick from a team because things go wrong more often than GM's and their owners would care to admit. As my probability example was attempting to demonstrate, it's not just whether Giannis says yes, it's all the other things that can happen to derail what appears to be a great plan.

And yes, the odds still say we end up with the something in the 25 to 30 range, but now we've got another 2nd round pick to play with, and a clear and free number one.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't help a team in our division? I'm personally pretty sympathetic with their situation, and hope they retain him rather than lose him to the next "super team".

what I am saying is what I saw was Altman doing Griff a solid and Griff making it harder for the cavs to get a better pick in 22 because after the trade the Bucks were better positioned to keep the freak


I'm assuming the Bucks and Pelicans find a way to get the deal done even without our co-operation, but even if we could had blocked the deal and Giannis walked, I suspect the Bucks would have found a way to make sure we never got a first out of that like we did to the Hawks.

way too serious man...
the point was simply it was an irrelevant transfer by Altman that helped facilitate a much larger and more relevant transfer of power.
Giannis was never walking imo anyway but after this deal the odds got better he stays and for that reason I would not have had a hand in it no matter how small unless Griff gave me something else in principal maybe some under the table intel who knows what Koby got
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1386 » by JonFromVA » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:10 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:what I am saying is what I saw was Altman doing Griff a solid and Griff making it harder for the cavs to get a better pick in 22 because after the trade the Bucks were better positioned to keep the freak


I'm assuming the Bucks and Pelicans find a way to get the deal done even without our co-operation, but even if we could had blocked the deal and Giannis walked, I suspect the Bucks would have found a way to make sure we never got a first out of that like we did to the Hawks.

way too serious man...
the point was simply it was an irrelevant transfer by Altman that helped facilitate a much larger and more relevant transfer of power.
Giannis was never walking imo anyway but after this deal the odds got better he stays and for that reason I would not have had a hand in it no matter how small unless Griff gave me something else in principal maybe some under the table intel who knows what Koby got


It's called Quid-Pro-Quo.

The next time we need a favor that New Orleans or Milwaukee can helps us out with, they'll make it happen for the price of a second round pick.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1387 » by Stillwater » Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:46 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
I'm assuming the Bucks and Pelicans find a way to get the deal done even without our co-operation, but even if we could had blocked the deal and Giannis walked, I suspect the Bucks would have found a way to make sure we never got a first out of that like we did to the Hawks.

way too serious man...
the point was simply it was an irrelevant transfer by Altman that helped facilitate a much larger and more relevant transfer of power.
Giannis was never walking imo anyway but after this deal the odds got better he stays and for that reason I would not have had a hand in it no matter how small unless Griff gave me something else in principal maybe some under the table intel who knows what Koby got


It's called Quid-Pro-Quo.

The next time we need a favor that New Orleans or Milwaukee can helps us out with, they'll make it happen for the price of a second round pick.

lol whatever buddy...
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1388 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:28 am

Celtics fans think we're trading Drummond and No.5 for Hayward and No. 14. I think Hayward specifically refused to opt-in by draft day to avoid this result.

But if I suspend disbelief, and entertain the possibility that Hayward would agree to a S&T to the Cavs in the next 30 minutes, I could see it.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1389 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:15 pm

Come on Hayward, be original and say yes. Everyone else says no.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1390 » by Revenged25 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:44 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Come on Hayward, be original and say yes. Everyone else says no.
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So would the Cavs then just resign TT to a long term deal? Maybe something like 4/40?
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1391 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:03 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Come on Hayward, be original and say yes. Everyone else says no.
Read on Twitter
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So would the Cavs then just resign TT to a long term deal? Maybe something like 4/40?


Advanced stats have TT as one of the worst starters on the team last year, and frankly, it matches what I saw. I think $10M per is twice his market value. I get that he's a hard worker, and decent locker room guy, but if he weren't both of those things, I'm not sure he's even in the NBA. He offers minimal rim protection, he's actually a poor post defender against a true a big, and you're basically playing 4 on 5 offensively with him on the floor.

When Waiters accused him and Kyrie of playing buddy ball he had it half right. He rolls to the rim before the shot goes up on every play which is allows his defender to cheat and play zone. When young guards drive to the rim without a plan B, TT is there essentially unguarded and is the easy dump off. But, due to the fact that he doesn't get his shot up quickly, and he's undersized, it's not a particularly efficient offensive play.

It's really time for the Cavs to move on from TT IMO. He' not going to be happy with what the market offers, he'll feel personally betrayed if that's all the Cavs give him, and we need someone at center who offers a different skill set.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1392 » by Stillwater » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:37 pm

I mean I think its pretty obvious they are going to keep Drummond and let tt walk keeping him at least until the dl without some more incentive than Hayward who as good as he can be when healthy doesnt make much sense after drafting KPJ Windler and now Okoro I mean GH has rarely been on the court in the past 2 seasons and lost his starting job in the process but probably want to play on a contender or go somewhere that will overpay him on his next contract +tbh I cant stand the freedie fn mercury stash...
Maybe if BOS is willing to throw in Robert Williams and Pritchard for Exum and Id say ok expiring for expiring lets go.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1393 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:40 pm

Stillwater wrote:I mean I think its pretty obvious they are going to keep Drummond and let tt walk keeping him at least until the dl without some more incentive than Hayward who as good as he can be when healthy doesnt make much sense after drafting KPJ Windler and now Okoro I mean GH has rarely been on the court in the past 2 seasons and lost his starting job in the process but probably want to play on a contender or go somewhere that will overpay him on his next contract +tbh I cant stand the freedie fn mercury stash...
Maybe if BOS is willing to throw in Robert Williams and Pritchard for Exum and Id say ok expiring for expiring lets go.


I'd trade Drummond for Hayward in a heart beat, let TT walk and start calling F.A. centers. There's a ton of them and not a lot of money to go around. Hayward can play the 4 in small ball line ups. Alternatively, Okoro can play the 2. Hayward is a far more versatile player in terms of position and gives you quite a few more options. The key is getting him to agree to play here. Even if it's just for this upcoming season.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1394 » by Stillwater » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:14 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I mean I think its pretty obvious they are going to keep Drummond and let tt walk keeping him at least until the dl without some more incentive than Hayward who as good as he can be when healthy doesnt make much sense after drafting KPJ Windler and now Okoro I mean GH has rarely been on the court in the past 2 seasons and lost his starting job in the process but probably want to play on a contender or go somewhere that will overpay him on his next contract +tbh I cant stand the freedie fn mercury stash...
Maybe if BOS is willing to throw in Robert Williams and Pritchard for Exum and Id say ok expiring for expiring lets go.


I'd trade Drummond for Hayward in a heart beat, let TT walk and start calling F.A. centers. There's a ton of them and not a lot of money to go around. Hayward can play the 4 in small ball line ups. Alternatively, Okoro can play the 2. Hayward is a far more versatile player in terms of position and gives you quite a few more options. The key is getting him to agree to play here. Even if it's just for this upcoming season.

I would not ,maybe if he could stay healthy for the first part of the season so they could see what they got with GH it would be worth it and then have the option of shopping his deal at the dl it could make some sense if the chemistry was not there or he seemed unlikely to resign on a fair deal but I think with Drummond despite being such a small window it was obvious the guards had a better outlet and unless they had drafted Okongwu or picked up a high ceiling Oturu type later indicating Dre was not part of their plans there is little chance they dont plan on keeping Drummond if they can including paying him next summer even though the odds are greater he wants more than they actually will pay him and he walks anyway. If Dre plays meh and the team is worse with him than without him before the dl he will be gone for sure but without that knowledge I doubt they move him after drafting Okoro
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1395 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:19 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I mean I think its pretty obvious they are going to keep Drummond and let tt walk keeping him at least until the dl without some more incentive than Hayward who as good as he can be when healthy doesnt make much sense after drafting KPJ Windler and now Okoro I mean GH has rarely been on the court in the past 2 seasons and lost his starting job in the process but probably want to play on a contender or go somewhere that will overpay him on his next contract +tbh I cant stand the freedie fn mercury stash...
Maybe if BOS is willing to throw in Robert Williams and Pritchard for Exum and Id say ok expiring for expiring lets go.


I'd trade Drummond for Hayward in a heart beat, let TT walk and start calling F.A. centers. There's a ton of them and not a lot of money to go around. Hayward can play the 4 in small ball line ups. Alternatively, Okoro can play the 2. Hayward is a far more versatile player in terms of position and gives you quite a few more options. The key is getting him to agree to play here. Even if it's just for this upcoming season.

I would not ,maybe if he could stay healthy for the first part of the season so they could see what they got with GH it would be worth it and then have the option of shopping his deal at the dl it could make some sense if the chemistry was not there or he seemed unlikely to resign on a fair deal but I think with Drummond despite being such a small window it was obvious the guards had a better outlet and unless they had drafted Okongwu or picked up a high ceiling Oturu type later indicating Dre was not part of their plans there is little chance they dont plan on keeping Drummond if they can including paying him next summer even though the odds are greater he wants more than they actually will pay him and he walks anyway. If Dre plays meh and the team is worse with him than without him before the dl he will be gone for sure but without that knowledge I doubt they move him after drafting Okoro


Noel as rim running big option with a spaced out floor between Sexton, Love and Hayward is such a better team than one with a plodding traditional center that I don't even know what to say to that. You'd have considerably better offense and defense.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1396 » by Stillwater » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I'd trade Drummond for Hayward in a heart beat, let TT walk and start calling F.A. centers. There's a ton of them and not a lot of money to go around. Hayward can play the 4 in small ball line ups. Alternatively, Okoro can play the 2. Hayward is a far more versatile player in terms of position and gives you quite a few more options. The key is getting him to agree to play here. Even if it's just for this upcoming season.

I would not ,maybe if he could stay healthy for the first part of the season so they could see what they got with GH it would be worth it and then have the option of shopping his deal at the dl it could make some sense if the chemistry was not there or he seemed unlikely to resign on a fair deal but I think with Drummond despite being such a small window it was obvious the guards had a better outlet and unless they had drafted Okongwu or picked up a high ceiling Oturu type later indicating Dre was not part of their plans there is little chance they dont plan on keeping Drummond if they can including paying him next summer even though the odds are greater he wants more than they actually will pay him and he walks anyway. If Dre plays meh and the team is worse with him than without him before the dl he will be gone for sure but without that knowledge I doubt they move him after drafting Okoro


Noel as rim running big option with a spaced out floor between Sexton, Love and Hayward is such a better team than one with a plodding traditional center that I don't even know what to say to that. You'd have considerably better offense and defense.

SURE but where is Noel now? Dre is on the roster all Im saying they like him imo
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1397 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:26 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I would not ,maybe if he could stay healthy for the first part of the season so they could see what they got with GH it would be worth it and then have the option of shopping his deal at the dl it could make some sense if the chemistry was not there or he seemed unlikely to resign on a fair deal but I think with Drummond despite being such a small window it was obvious the guards had a better outlet and unless they had drafted Okongwu or picked up a high ceiling Oturu type later indicating Dre was not part of their plans there is little chance they dont plan on keeping Drummond if they can including paying him next summer even though the odds are greater he wants more than they actually will pay him and he walks anyway. If Dre plays meh and the team is worse with him than without him before the dl he will be gone for sure but without that knowledge I doubt they move him after drafting Okoro


Noel as rim running big option with a spaced out floor between Sexton, Love and Hayward is such a better team than one with a plodding traditional center that I don't even know what to say to that. You'd have considerably better offense and defense.

SURE but where is Noel now? Dre is on the roster all Im saying they like him imo


Here's a partial list of the current F.A. centers. Noel isn't even on it. I think the MLE gets him.

https://hoopshype.com/2020/01/20/nba-free-agency-2020-centers/
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1398 » by Stillwater » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:52 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Noel as rim running big option with a spaced out floor between Sexton, Love and Hayward is such a better team than one with a plodding traditional center that I don't even know what to say to that. You'd have considerably better offense and defense.

SURE but where is Noel now? Dre is on the roster all Im saying they like him imo


Here's a partial list of the current F.A. centers. Noel isn't even on it. I think the MLE gets him.

https://hoopshype.com/2020/01/20/nba-free-agency-2020-centers/

I would love to get him on the roster I hope it happens
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1399 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:53 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:SURE but where is Noel now? Dre is on the roster all Im saying they like him imo


Here's a partial list of the current F.A. centers. Noel isn't even on it. I think the MLE gets him.

https://hoopshype.com/2020/01/20/nba-free-agency-2020-centers/

I would love to get him on the roster I hope it happens


The point is that the center market is about to reset, hard, and the money is scarce. We're going to get FAs who would normally pass take a look just because we have the entire MLE.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1400 » by jbk1234 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:57 pm

Welp, he's probably going to sign with the Knicks for way too much money now.

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