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Trade Ideas (Part III)

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KuruptedCav
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1701 » by KuruptedCav » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:50 am

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:It looks like the Cavs are a team with zero spacing. You'd probably have to send out both Okoro and Sexton just to make it workable (while keeping your pick to draft a wing), and even then, I think it will be a disaster on offense. You'd have to add Prince's expiring to make salaries match and he had the highest three point percentage on the team last year.

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I was thinking Sexton, Osman, Pick or Okoro. Figure with Thybulle, Okoro might not be the best fit.

Locking in Garland, Simmons and Allen in makes the target players really easy to identify, punts on the Sexton issue, and makes Love a possible play. I just like the defensive potential.


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People are gonna think I'm crazy, but I'm not entirely sure Simmons is worth his contract. Outside of Gobert, I don't think you can justify paying players who can't shoot $30M plus. With Simmons, it's not just that he can't shoot, he simply won't shoot. He doesn't even try to keep the defense honest. When the game slows down in the playoffs, his defender plays so far off him, it junks their offense.

Hes been in the league a long time. That's a lot of offseasons to work on his jumper and he either hasn't done it, or even worse, he has and it hasn't helped, like at all. Non-zero chance that over the next two years Sexton improves his defense, Okoro actually develops a jumper, and Simmons is the worst of the three.



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I share the sentiment that Ben Simmons isn’t worth his contract. But I also think most of the 25 players in the $30mil club aren’t worth their contracts.

Ideally, I’d love to see a
Garland/Sexton/Simmons/Nance/Allen team where bothSexton & Garland make the jump to triggering 8-10 3pt shots per game with efficient players behind them who can clear the boards, cover on defense, and score at the rim.

But, I don’t really see a path that doesn’t send Sexton or Garland out.


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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1702 » by jbk1234 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 12:38 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I was thinking Sexton, Osman, Pick or Okoro. Figure with Thybulle, Okoro might not be the best fit.

Locking in Garland, Simmons and Allen in makes the target players really easy to identify, punts on the Sexton issue, and makes Love a possible play. I just like the defensive potential.


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People are gonna think I'm crazy, but I'm not entirely sure Simmons is worth his contract. Outside of Gobert, I don't think you can justify paying players who can't shoot $30M plus. With Simmons, it's not just that he can't shoot, he simply won't shoot. He doesn't even try to keep the defense honest. When the game slows down in the playoffs, his defender plays so far off him, it junks their offense.

Hes been in the league a long time. That's a lot of offseasons to work on his jumper and he either hasn't done it, or even worse, he has and it hasn't helped, like at all. Non-zero chance that over the next two years Sexton improves his defense, Okoro actually develops a jumper, and Simmons is the worst of the three.



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I share the sentiment that Ben Simmons isn’t worth his contract. But I also think most of the 25 players in the $30mil club aren’t worth their contracts.

Ideally, I’d love to see a
Garland/Sexton/Simmons/Nance/Allen team where bothSexton & Garland make the jump to triggering 8-10 3pt shots per game with efficient players behind them who can clear the boards, cover on defense, and score at the rim.

But, I don’t really see a path that doesn’t send Sexton or Garland out.


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I think that team might actually be a worse option than where the Cavs are now. The Cavs just finished a season with Okoro where they asked Sexton and Garland to average 8-10 threes between them. We all saw how that worked out. Okoro may develop a jumper. Simmons will not. Simmons needs the ball in his hands to be effective offensively. People laud Simmons defense, but he actually struggles a bit against smaller/quicker guards. Now add in the money.

I think both Sexton and Nance would have to go if you trade for Simmons and I don't think he's the type of guy where it's worth shipping them out due solely to fit.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1703 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 1:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:People are gonna think I'm crazy, but I'm not entirely sure Simmons is worth his contract. Outside of Gobert, I don't think you can justify paying players who can't shoot $30M plus. With Simmons, it's not just that he can't shoot, he simply won't shoot. He doesn't even try to keep the defense honest. When the game slows down in the playoffs, his defender plays so far off him, it junks their offense.

Hes been in the league a long time. That's a lot of offseasons to work on his jumper and he either hasn't done it, or even worse, he has and it hasn't helped, like at all. Non-zero chance that over the next two years Sexton improves his defense, Okoro actually develops a jumper, and Simmons is the worst of the three.



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I share the sentiment that Ben Simmons isn’t worth his contract. But I also think most of the 25 players in the $30mil club aren’t worth their contracts.

Ideally, I’d love to see a
Garland/Sexton/Simmons/Nance/Allen team where bothSexton & Garland make the jump to triggering 8-10 3pt shots per game with efficient players behind them who can clear the boards, cover on defense, and score at the rim.

But, I don’t really see a path that doesn’t send Sexton or Garland out.


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I think that team might actually be a worse option than where the Cavs are now. The Cavs just finished a season with Okoro where they asked Sexton and Garland to average 8-10 threes between them. We all saw how that worked out. Okoro may develop a jumper. Simmons will not. Simmons needs the ball in his hands to be effective offensively. People laud Simmons defense, but he actually struggles a bit against smaller/quicker guards. Now add in the money.

I think both Sexton and Nance would have to go if you trade for Simmons and I don't think he's the type of guy where it's worth shipping them out due solely to fit.

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Agreed Simmons is a bad option for a trade. I'd much rather look to use Sexton/Nance to get someone like Brown or BI who would help balance out the roster while also not causing the Cavs to lose the production from Sexton which means our already bottom offense would drop even further.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1704 » by JonFromVA » Wed Jun 9, 2021 2:35 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:So, to change it up, what’s a Ben Simmons deal look like?


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It looks like the Cavs are a team with zero spacing. You'd probably have to send out both Okoro and Sexton just to make it workable (while keeping your pick to draft a wing), and even then, I think it will be a disaster on offense. You'd have to add Prince's expiring to make salaries match and he had the highest three point percentage on the team last year.


Some have suggested that on another team, that Simmons best fit would be as a point C.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1705 » by Stillwater » Wed Jun 9, 2021 6:03 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Alas, we do have to make a decision on Allen and whether he can help cleanup our backcourt defensive deficiencies. If he's not the key to making Sexland work, then maybe Sexland can't work? And if that's the case, do we really want to spend $20M/yr or more on a Center?

The fun is just beginning for our rebuild.

Yeah I like JFro but Hartenstein with his passing actually looked better as is /right now and I would not be surprised if they decide to give J what is close to what he supposedly wants without any floor stretching skill that they regret it some without significant improvement as a scoring threat besides catching lobs. I like his mobility and rim protection and they are better having him than not but how much better than a playmaking center like Hartenstein idk


Ideally we can keep both, but it really depends on how much Hartenstein wants. If we can keep him for about 5-8 mil/yr to be the back-up center that's awesome, even if it's just a 2+1 contract so he can get a chance to increase his value.

I think they will potentially pay JFro so much based on projections that they won't keep the rotation level big which Hartenstein already is using bench big $ and expect to keep him, because Hartenstein played better than JFro this season and somebody had to have noticed it outside the 216
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1706 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:59 am

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah I like JFro but Hartenstein with his passing actually looked better as is /right now and I would not be surprised if they decide to give J what is close to what he supposedly wants without any floor stretching skill that they regret it some without significant improvement as a scoring threat besides catching lobs. I like his mobility and rim protection and they are better having him than not but how much better than a playmaking center like Hartenstein idk


Ideally we can keep both, but it really depends on how much Hartenstein wants. If we can keep him for about 5-8 mil/yr to be the back-up center that's awesome, even if it's just a 2+1 contract so he can get a chance to increase his value.

I think they will potentially pay JFro so much based on projections that they won't keep the rotation level big which Hartenstein already is using bench big $ and expect to keep him, because Hartenstein played better than JFro this season and somebody had to have noticed it outside the 216
I think they keep both. They've been smart with the rotation guys, and as much as like Hartenstein as a throw in from the McGee trade, he had a couple of stinker games after the playing time adrenaline wore off.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1707 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Ideally we can keep both, but it really depends on how much Hartenstein wants. If we can keep him for about 5-8 mil/yr to be the back-up center that's awesome, even if it's just a 2+1 contract so he can get a chance to increase his value.

I think they will potentially pay JFro so much based on projections that they won't keep the rotation level big which Hartenstein already is using bench big $ and expect to keep him, because Hartenstein played better than JFro this season and somebody had to have noticed it outside the 216
I think they keep both. They've been smart with the rotation guys, and as much as like Hartenstein as a throw in from the McGee trade, he had a couple of stinker games after the playing time adrenaline wore off.

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stinkers or not I think he is well worth retaining in fact I think he is good enough they could but won't s/t JFro right off the roster for another Lottery pick either this year or next years. I dont want to see them overpay a non stretch center about as much as you dont want them to pay Sexton without testing the market first
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1708 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:54 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I think they will potentially pay JFro so much based on projections that they won't keep the rotation level big which Hartenstein already is using bench big $ and expect to keep him, because Hartenstein played better than JFro this season and somebody had to have noticed it outside the 216
I think they keep both. They've been smart with the rotation guys, and as much as like Hartenstein as a throw in from the McGee trade, he had a couple of stinker games after the playing time adrenaline wore off.

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stinkers or not I think he is well worth retaining in fact I think he is good enough they could but won't s/t JFro right off the roster for another Lottery pick either this year or next years. I dont want to see them overpay a non stretch center about as much as you dont want them to pay Sexton without testing the market first
Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1709 » by Harper4Ferry? » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:49 am

I’ll throw out some (garbage) trades that would probably make us a better club in 2021-22. Especially if we fall to #7 or draft Mobley/Kaminga/Barnes

Kemba for Kevin Love/Cedi
John Wall for Kevin Love and Prince(or Cedi)
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1710 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:36 am

Harper4Ferry? wrote:I’ll throw out some (garbage) trades that would probably make us a better club in 2021-22. Especially if we fall to #7 or draft Mobley/Kaminga/Barnes

Kemba for Kevin Love/Cedi
John Wall for Kevin Love and Prince(or Cedi)
Here's my problem with both of those trades, assuming either of those guys is healthy enough to give you consistent minutes off the bench, and would be okay doing it (both unlikely assumptions), you haven't actually opened up any cap space.

I'd rather retain Love until he either has a renaissance season, or realizes that no one is trading for him and offers to give real money back. But know this, neither Kemba nor Wall will be interested in a team friendly buyout if they're traded here. We'll be paying those guys full freight even when they're wearing street clothes on the bench.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1711 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Harper4Ferry? wrote:I’ll throw out some (garbage) trades that would probably make us a better club in 2021-22. Especially if we fall to #7 or draft Mobley/Kaminga/Barnes

Kemba for Kevin Love/Cedi
John Wall for Kevin Love and Prince(or Cedi)


Having a healthy Kevin Love would make us better too, the whole problem is not being able to count on any of those guys staying healthy.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1712 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:47 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I think they keep both. They've been smart with the rotation guys, and as much as like Hartenstein as a throw in from the McGee trade, he had a couple of stinker games after the playing time adrenaline wore off.

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stinkers or not I think he is well worth retaining in fact I think he is good enough they could but won't s/t JFro right off the roster for another Lottery pick either this year or next years. I dont want to see them overpay a non stretch center about as much as you dont want them to pay Sexton without testing the market first
Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1713 » by JonFromVA » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:stinkers or not I think he is well worth retaining in fact I think he is good enough they could but won't s/t JFro right off the roster for another Lottery pick either this year or next years. I dont want to see them overpay a non stretch center about as much as you dont want them to pay Sexton without testing the market first
Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.


There's more to rim protection than blocks, but we can look at things like defended FG% in the paint and this supports your claim that he's more on the level of Noel than Gobert.

Of course, we're talking about the Cavaliers and they just have this wonderful way of getting less out of their players. Allen's effectiveness as a rim protector dropped off significantly from last season when he was with the Nets.

These stats are effected by defensive scheme, the ability of the wings to contain/slow/direct their man, and the help available from the weakside to help protect against lobs.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1714 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:39 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.


There's more to rim protection than blocks, but we can look at things like defended FG% in the paint and this supports your claim that he's more on the level of Noel than Gobert.

Of course, we're talking about the Cavaliers and they just have this wonderful way of getting less out of their players. Allen's effectiveness as a rim protector dropped off significantly from last season when he was with the Nets.

These stats are effected by defensive scheme, the ability of the wings to contain/slow/direct their man, and the help available from the weakside to help protect against lobs.

Well I wasn't comparing him to Noel I was comparing Noel to Gobert and the differences in the salaries they are paid.
I don't think they need JFro if it costs 100mil I dont think the difference between him and say somebody like Claxton are all that different and BKN knew that when they parted with him
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1715 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:50 pm

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7432976
Cost controlled but disgruntled streaking Cedi to Sac at a position of need for them for 1 year of back up pg Delon Wright and the 39th pick in 2021 to use on a back up pg with size like Dosunmu/David Duke/Duarte etc or one with defensive chops like Miles McBride or Hyland
who says no?
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1716 » by Revenged25 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:58 pm

Stillwater wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7432976
Cost controlled but disgruntled streaking Cedi to Sac at a position of need for them for 1 year of back up pg Delon Wright and the 39th pick in 2021 to use on a back up pg with size like Dosunmu/David Duke/Duarte etc or one with defensive chops like Miles McBride or Hyland
who says no?


Them? But toss it on the T&T board and find out.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1717 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:00 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7432976
Cost controlled but disgruntled streaking Cedi to Sac at a position of need for them for 1 year of back up pg Delon Wright and the 39th pick in 2021 to use on a back up pg with size like Dosunmu/David Duke/Duarte etc or one with defensive chops like Miles McBride or Hyland
who says no?


Them? But toss it on the T&T board and find out.

yeah I just realized he was just traded to SAC in March and they gave up cojo and 2 2nds for him so its a wash probably unless they really like Cedi still out there.
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Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1718 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:06 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:stinkers or not I think he is well worth retaining in fact I think he is good enough they could but won't s/t JFro right off the roster for another Lottery pick either this year or next years. I dont want to see them overpay a non stretch center about as much as you dont want them to pay Sexton without testing the market first
Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.
There's really no comparison between Gobert and Noel.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1719 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:37 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Okay, but the Jazz might win a chip with a non-stretch center this year. Elite rim protection is worth quite a bit.

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I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.
There's really no comparison between Gobert and Noel.

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yeah one is durable and the other is not but outside that what is the difference as rim protectors ?So you just agreed that JFro is worth Noel $ but is somewhat more durable but he is not at all worth Gobert $ thanks
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Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#1720 » by Revenged25 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:44 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I guess. I mean I dont think when Noel is paid what he is and is there right behind Gobert for blocks on the season with 7 others in between them and JFro you can call him an elite rim protector. border line but not enough to pay him 100mil i dont think not without expanding his range or becoming more of a focus offensively or something which although possible is far less likely than sign & trading him picking up a backup pg and using the mid first they get for him then drafting Isaiah Todd to become that rim protector but coming into the league as a 6'11' shooter etc.
There's really no comparison between Gobert and Noel.

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yeah one is durable and the other is not but outside that what is the difference as rim protectors ?So you just agreed that JFro is worth Noel $ but is somewhat more durable but he is not at all worth Gobert $ thanks


Gobert also has more points, more rebounding, and plays more minutes. Granted Allen is playing the same minutes as Noel right now but I would think that would probably increase starting next year.

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