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Trade Ideas (Part III)

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2421 » by jbk1234 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:49 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement that we need to wait till this season is over to pay Sexton so that they can better evaluate him.


I have no problem signing him for a price that would both let us build with him or trade him if necessary. I feel that's around $20M.


I think everyone is also in agreement that if he signed for $20M right now they'd be ecstatic even if he was moved to the bench as I think he'd still be part of the "Big 3" for the team, just in a role like Harden with OKC or Ginobli with the Spurs. I think the cheapest we can expect him to sign right now though is probably $25M though which I think is still a good deal when you consider his continual improvement and the rising cap numbers due to the next TV deal.
Everyone is not in agreement.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2422 » by jbk1234 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:54 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
The dude scores at will with no spacing. He doesn't need it improved, though it would help the rest of the crappy scorers on the team.

I can't find the tweet but there was one that showed that Sexton's teammates in line-ups had some of the worst spacing in the NBA compared to other high caliber scorers and he still put up his numbers on his efficiency.
He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

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I’m not sure where you are getting your stats, but:

Last season Collin played 34 games against the top-8 teams in each conference. In those games he averaged 22.17ppg on 45.1 fg%

Maybe confusing him with Darius Garland who played in 27 games against those opponents, averaged 15ppg and shot 42.7%? And somehow averaged a -9.48 +/- vs them (compared to Collin’s underwhelming -6.37 +/-)…

Splits are all there on BasketballReference…

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No one claimed Garland can score at will, nor are we debating whether to hand Garland a huge extension after his second season in the NBA.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2423 » by mg » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:26 pm

I think they had to acquire a good backup PG for several reasons... one of them being Garland has been a bit injury prone in college and during his time in the NBA.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2424 » by Stillwater » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:27 pm

mg wrote:I think they had to acquire a good backup PG for several reasons... one of them being Garland has been a bit injury prone in college and during his time in the NBA.

Or maybe because trading him for a 6'8" sf was always the best available opportunity and getting a legit pg in the meantime also makes sense... lol
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjxnb256
I am just kidding , but it is not out of the question really before the season for something similar to happen even though it's unlikely he is traded before the dl
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2425 » by Stillwater » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:28 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

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I’m not sure where you are getting your stats, but:

Last season Collin played 34 games against the top-8 teams in each conference. In those games he averaged 22.17ppg on 45.1 fg%

Maybe confusing him with Darius Garland who played in 27 games against those opponents, averaged 15ppg and shot 42.7%? And somehow averaged a -9.48 +/- vs them (compared to Collin’s underwhelming -6.37 +/-)…

Splits are all there on BasketballReference…

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app
No one claimed Garland can score at will, nor are we debating whether to hand Garland a huge extension after his second season in the NBA.

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Nor would they have justification to do so smh
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2426 » by jbk1234 » Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:33 pm

mg wrote:I think they had to acquire a good backup PG for several reasons... one of them being Garland has been a bit injury prone in college and during his time in the NBA.
Also, guys can't play 48 minutes a game.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2427 » by JonFromVA » Sat Aug 14, 2021 6:06 pm

mg wrote:I think they had to acquire a good backup PG for several reasons... one of them being Garland has been a bit injury prone in college and during his time in the NBA.


Mostly they needed a backup PG far more than they needed Taurean Prince and the Cavs properly evaluated the free-agent market and realized the available backup PGs were going to get full MLE 4-year offers from other teams. At best the Cavs could tie up a lot of money and years in a backup PG, or quite likely end up with nothing.

That being said ... things can certainly change if Rubio can get this team winning.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2428 » by KuruptedCav » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:14 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:He doesn't score at will. This is the fallacy. He shoots a lot. A whole lot. But when you look at when we play good teams and they make the slightest effort at shutting him down, his efficiency dips. It's like last season stopped when we were 10-11, and the rest of the season when went 10-50 or whatever, never happened in the minds of some fans.

Sexton starting the most games, playing the most minutes, having the highest usage, and taking the most shots has been the constant on a team that couldn't win more than 25 games even once in three years. Now people want to tripple down and commit major money to him? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

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I’m not sure where you are getting your stats, but:

Last season Collin played 34 games against the top-8 teams in each conference. In those games he averaged 22.17ppg on 45.1 fg%

Maybe confusing him with Darius Garland who played in 27 games against those opponents, averaged 15ppg and shot 42.7%? And somehow averaged a -9.48 +/- vs them (compared to Collin’s underwhelming -6.37 +/-)…

Splits are all there on BasketballReference…

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No one claimed Garland can score at will, nor are we debating whether to hand Garland a huge extension after his second season in the NBA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Okay, than you weren’t mistaking someone else’s performance for Sextons against good teams.

Any other reason you mistakenly think he doesn’t show up against quality teams?


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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2429 » by JonFromVA » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:49 pm

Speaking of Collin's splits ... he averaged 28.9/4.9/3.1 on 64 TS%, 46.6 3pt% in the 18 games he helped us win. His +/- in the wins was +11.1, but -18 in the 42 losses.

I'm not suggesting he needs to average those numbers by any stretch and he's not the only Cavs player who was significantly better in wins; but he needed to play like a superstar last season for us to win games. Which indicates a) he needs more help so we can win games without the need for him to play like an ATG, but also b) his play-style can lead to wins if he's good enough at it.

I just have a hard time believing a 22 year with Collin's work ethic has plateaued and won't continue to improve especially as his teammates improve, our offense improves, our floor spacing improves, our defense improves, etc, etc.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2430 » by Revenged25 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:24 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Speaking of Collin's splits ... he averaged 28.9/4.9/3.1 on 64 TS%, 46.6 3pt% in the 18 games he helped us win. His +/- in the wins was +11.1, but -18 in the 42 losses.

I'm not suggesting he needs to average those numbers by any stretch and he's not the only Cavs player who was significantly better in wins; but he needed to play like a superstar last season for us to win games. Which indicates a) he needs more help so we can win games without the need for him to play like an ATG, but also b) his play-style can lead to wins if he's good enough at it.

I just have a hard time believing a 22 year with Collin's work ethic has plateaued and won't continue to improve especially as his teammates improve, our offense improves, our floor spacing improves, our defense improves, etc, etc.

Here's a question, how much of the difference in those +/- differences are from Sexton not playing up to snuff and how much do you think it's because we had a constant rotating door with the majority of the roster with most of the rotating guy being G-Leaguers that caused the entire roster to have a worse +/-.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2431 » by LivingLegend » Sun Aug 15, 2021 6:58 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Speaking of Collin's splits ... he averaged 28.9/4.9/3.1 on 64 TS%, 46.6 3pt% in the 18 games he helped us win. His +/- in the wins was +11.1, but -18 in the 42 losses.

I'm not suggesting he needs to average those numbers by any stretch and he's not the only Cavs player who was significantly better in wins; but he needed to play like a superstar last season for us to win games. Which indicates a) he needs more help so we can win games without the need for him to play like an ATG, but also b) his play-style can lead to wins if he's good enough at it.

I just have a hard time believing a 22 year with Collin's work ethic has plateaued and won't continue to improve especially as his teammates improve, our offense improves, our floor spacing improves, our defense improves, etc, etc.

Here's a question, how much of the difference in those +/- differences are from Sexton not playing up to snuff and how much do you think it's because we had a constant rotating door with the majority of the roster with most of the rotating guy being G-Leaguers that caused the entire roster to have a worse +/-.


Could it be a mix of both? We definitely need his scoring my question is could he handle being a 2nd or 3rd option and know when to sort of take a step back and get others involved or does he only know 1 speed ala Westbrook.

If he can figure out how to pick and choose his spots better and become more cerebral he could benefit this team greatly, I just don't think he is good enough to be that James Harden, Kevin Durant, Lillard, Curry ECT full time defacto #1 option who you want with then all I'm his hands 24/7.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2432 » by JonFromVA » Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:57 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Speaking of Collin's splits ... he averaged 28.9/4.9/3.1 on 64 TS%, 46.6 3pt% in the 18 games he helped us win. His +/- in the wins was +11.1, but -18 in the 42 losses.

I'm not suggesting he needs to average those numbers by any stretch and he's not the only Cavs player who was significantly better in wins; but he needed to play like a superstar last season for us to win games. Which indicates a) he needs more help so we can win games without the need for him to play like an ATG, but also b) his play-style can lead to wins if he's good enough at it.

I just have a hard time believing a 22 year with Collin's work ethic has plateaued and won't continue to improve especially as his teammates improve, our offense improves, our floor spacing improves, our defense improves, etc, etc.

Here's a question, how much of the difference in those +/- differences are from Sexton not playing up to snuff and how much do you think it's because we had a constant rotating door with the majority of the roster with most of the rotating guy being G-Leaguers that caused the entire roster to have a worse +/-.


We're just going to have to see. I keep mentioning floor spacing as a big problem, but defenses will continue to send defenders at Collin until he makes them pay with his passing.

Alternatively if we get Collin the ball on the move, he could be at the rim before the D has time to react.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2433 » by jbk1234 » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:22 pm

KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:I’m not sure where you are getting your stats, but:

Last season Collin played 34 games against the top-8 teams in each conference. In those games he averaged 22.17ppg on 45.1 fg%

Maybe confusing him with Darius Garland who played in 27 games against those opponents, averaged 15ppg and shot 42.7%? And somehow averaged a -9.48 +/- vs them (compared to Collin’s underwhelming -6.37 +/-)…

Splits are all there on BasketballReference…

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No one claimed Garland can score at will, nor are we debating whether to hand Garland a huge extension after his second season in the NBA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

Okay, than you weren’t mistaking someone else’s performance for Sextons against good teams.

Any other reason you mistakenly think he doesn’t show up against quality teams?


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I took issue with the claim that he *can score at will.* In fact, he cannot. His efficiency dips against better teams and it can dip for as long as months at a time depending on scheduling. When it does, the fact that he continues to shoot at a high volume isn't good. Especially because he's such a negative player defensively. This is the guy fans are debating handing a max to before the Cavs even have to make that choice.

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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2434 » by Stillwater » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:32 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
KuruptedCav wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:No one claimed Garland can score at will, nor are we debating whether to hand Garland a huge extension after his second season in the NBA.

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Okay, than you weren’t mistaking someone else’s performance for Sextons against good teams.

Any other reason you mistakenly think he doesn’t show up against quality teams?


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I took issue with the claim that he *can score at will.* In fact, he cannot. His efficiency dips against better teams and it can dip for as long as months at a time depending on scheduling. When it does, the fact that he continues to shoot at a high volume isn't good. Especially because he's such a negative player defensively. This is the guy fans are debating handing a max to before the Cavs even have to make that choice.

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I think your definition of " score at will" has a higher bar than most onlookers.
I think he does a great job of scoring given the lack of team offense as a whole makes life easy as fk for defenders even if many think his lack of passing is the reason for it, it aint...
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2435 » by LivingLegend » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:15 pm

The Cavs spoke with the New Orleans Pelicans about the possibility of a Josh Hart sign-and-trade, sources tell cleveland.com, but that possibility apparently vanished Monday, when Hart moved closer to a three-year, $38 million deal to stay in New Orleans. Cleveland has also explored the trade market. Kyle Anderson, Terrence Ross, Joe Ingles, Bojan Bogdanovic, Cam Reddish, T.J. Warren, Thaddeus Young, Tobias Harris, Jeremy Lamb and Harrison Barnes are all said to be available. Reddish is a player the Cavs liked in the 2019 draft. They’ve been in contact with Atlanta about him. But wings don’t come cheap.


In initial conversations, sources say most teams are asking for Cleveland’s 2022 first-round pick (with protections, of course), but that would be incredibly risky for a team with 60 total wins the last three years and projects to, in a best-case scenario, compete for a Play-In spot in 2021-22. Without the future first-rounder, which the Cavs seem unwilling to put on the table for any of the “available” wings, interest turns to either Larry Nance Jr. -- one of the few adults and winning players on the roster -- or the pair of extra 2022 second-round picks (Houston and San Antonio). Does combining one or both with Cedi Osman get the Cavs anywhere?

While exploring a bigger deal, the Cavs will continue to discuss the bottom-of-the-barrel wings that probably wouldn’t cost the mid-level exception. According to sources, there’s some interest in oft-injured Denzel Valentine who is said to be healthy. Svi Mykhailiuk, a career 36.2% 3-point shooter, could give them some minutes. There’s also one-dimensional Garrison Matthews. How about Stanley Johnson or James Ennis? Then again, are any of them better options than, say, a healthy Dylan Windler?

Sources say the Cavs also still have interest in a third point guard and backup center, recognizing the difficulties Mobley could have early in his career playing the 5. If they find a more dependable center (Ed Davis? Bismack Biyombo? Isaiah Hartenstein?) then Kabengele could be in danger of getting waived or traded.

Based on conversations with multiple sources, the priority order: wing, third guard, backup center.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2436 » by toooskies » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:31 pm

Alright, now that we lost yesterday's posts, pick your favorite option:

- Sign Garrison Mathews, a decent catch-and-shoot three-point shooter and defender with no other offensive skills to speak of
- Sign JJ Redick, a crusty old vet who might not see the court but brings a strong podcast game
- Sign James Ennis, trying to set a record for most teams played for
- Sign Isaiah Hartenstein, either a late-blooming Jokic clone or replacement-level backup C, depending on your perspective
- Take a player or two off of Memphis's hands for a 2nd or two, since they're 4 players deep at every position and that's not allowed
- Save $$$ for Sexton's future max contract
- Do something else

I'd personally grab Ennis + Hartenstein on 2/$10m contracts with partial guarantees or team options on the 2nd year, but I'm fine with anything as long as it's not nothing. Winning 20 games and running it back without addressing anything is... not great.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2437 » by Stillwater » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:01 pm

toooskies wrote:Alright, now that we lost yesterday's posts, pick your favorite option:

- Sign Garrison Mathews, a decent catch-and-shoot three-point shooter and defender with no other offensive skills to speak of
- Sign JJ Redick, a crusty old vet who might not see the court but brings a strong podcast game
- Sign James Ennis, trying to set a record for most teams played for
- Sign Isaiah Hartenstein, either a late-blooming Jokic clone or replacement-level backup C, depending on your perspective
- Take a player or two off of Memphis's hands for a 2nd or two, since they're 4 players deep at every position and that's not allowed
- Save $$$ for Sexton's future max contract
- Do something else

I'd personally grab Ennis + Hartenstein on 2/$10m contracts with partial guarantees or team options on the 2nd year, but I'm fine with anything as long as it's not nothing. Winning 20 games and running it back without addressing anything is... not great.

what happened yesterday?
I guess the site crashed :evil:
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2438 » by Stillwater » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:08 pm

I don't see the Cavs bringing back BThomas & might waive Stevens at this point...I think IH is in play but likely gone wanting more pt than he will get here.
I think Kabengele stays and is at least worth keeping this season as they need his spacing potential with Mobley and Allen not offering anything reliable yet even with Wade available at the 4.
I think the majority of Cavs summer league roster is just not up to snuff for this rebuild but I could see Scott Ryan and Bluiett get tc consideration if they decide to waive Dotson or don't get any FA.
as far as FA not sold anyone wanted to hitch on here if the Cavs M.O. is to continue to overplay rooks and young core players with any FA having to take back seats to them.
Maybe a trade comes if the Cavs can get Kuminga as part of facilitating a deal or something but its a long shot. he showed some nice passing chops and his IQ is not as raw as people thought.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2439 » by toooskies » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:18 pm

Stillwater wrote:I don't see the Cavs bringing back BThomas & might waive Stevens at this point...I think IH is in play but likely gone wanting more pt than he will get here.
I think Kabengele stays and is at least worth keeping this season as they need his spacing potential with Mobley and Allen not offering anything reliable yet even with Wade available at the 4.
I think the majority of Cavs summer league roster is just not up to snuff for this rebuild but I could see Scott Ryan and Bluiett get tc consideration if they decide to waive Dotson or don't get any FA.
as far as FA not sold anyone wanted to hitch on here if the Cavs M.O. is to continue to overplay rooks and young core players with any FA having to take back seats to them.
Maybe a trade comes if the Cavs can get Kuminga as part of facilitating a deal or something but its a long shot. he showed some nice passing chops and his IQ is not as raw as people thought.

Kuminga didn't convince anyone he could shoot the ball, though.
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Re: Trade Ideas (Part III) 

Post#2440 » by Stillwater » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:26 pm

toooskies wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I don't see the Cavs bringing back BThomas & might waive Stevens at this point...I think IH is in play but likely gone wanting more pt than he will get here.
I think Kabengele stays and is at least worth keeping this season as they need his spacing potential with Mobley and Allen not offering anything reliable yet even with Wade available at the 4.
I think the majority of Cavs summer league roster is just not up to snuff for this rebuild but I could see Scott Ryan and Bluiett get tc consideration if they decide to waive Dotson or don't get any FA.
as far as FA not sold anyone wanted to hitch on here if the Cavs M.O. is to continue to overplay rooks and young core players with any FA having to take back seats to them.
Maybe a trade comes if the Cavs can get Kuminga as part of facilitating a deal or something but its a long shot. he showed some nice passing chops and his IQ is not as raw as people thought.

Kuminga didn't convince anyone he could shoot the ball, though.

nope he sure didnt not from 3...but good luck stopping him scoring inside the arc. If all somebody has to do is work on their range as opposed to their mechanics and handles I will take that bet Kuminga at least becomes a 33.3% 3 point shooter on 3 attempts per game aka 1-3 per game by the end of training camp. GSW def is not going to keep him and if they do he wont play much at all this season
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