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Around the NBA

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JonFromVA
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#241 » by JonFromVA » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:24 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I agree with 2, but not necessarily 1. I don't necessarily disagree with 1, but it's beyond a really small sample size. If KPJ goes on to have a great career, then you'll be correct in terms of who the Cavs gave up on, but it's a game in the last third of the season, against a really bad team.


Which he followed up with a 5 for 17 performance (-16) in a loss to the Grizzlies.

Even as a young player James Harden was very efficient, in fact that was the biggest indicator that he might become what he did when the Thunder traded for him. KPJ's TS%, otoh, is actually lower in Houston than it was in Cleveland because he continues to be very inconsistent.

A lot of fans wish Garland was more aggressive, but when it inevitably leads to big swings in performance, it's not what's best for the team and the other players on the team.

As for KPJ's value? That was verified by the 29 other teams who didn't believe he was worth more than a protected second round pick.

We didn't give him up for nothing, he was worth nothing.

False
they DID give him up for what the market demanded was nothing of value because they couldn't keep it in house, they failed to do their job and any more of this DG is good garbage from you is going to make my head explode.
DG sucks Okoro sucks and right now in the past several games Sexton sucks too.
deleted by mod


Kevin's value didn't plummet because he got mad about his locker ... it was already low because of what he did at USC, then started to rebound based on how he played as a rook, and then completely tanked because of what he did over the Summer.

It confuses me why you keep acting like none of that happened. Just because he wasn't charged with anything, doesn't mean he's not judged by everyone who bothered to watch or read what he did.

And before your head explodes, I suggest you look around and see how other 21 year old PG's that averaged 16 & 6 and shot 40% from 3pt turned out. Just because he's not 6'6" like LaMelo or lightning quick like Ja or Fox, doesn't mean he's not going to carve himself out a nice career.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#242 » by jbk1234 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:35 pm

And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:
Read on Twitter
?s=20
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#243 » by JonFromVA » Thu Apr 1, 2021 4:58 pm

jbk1234 wrote:And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:


The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#244 » by Stillwater » Thu Apr 1, 2021 6:54 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:


The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.

I am of the opinion that the feeling in this roster is tense and nobody is happy at this point...even if they
try to pretend they are fine with tanking or sucking or whatever it is going on.
they are struggling they have chemistry problems the coach doesn't make winning adjustments
good players get sent to the bench or home or Houston none of those things
are helping the rebuild etc.
I think it's time to reconsider your stance on just how little an impact a trickle down effect hurts everyone.
Dan Gilbert is basically mia and despite the criticism of him many have had
imo whomever has the reigns is not making sound decisions at all even if Dan made some poor ones himself
Or maybe he is at the controls but the post Stroke Dan is in lala land
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#245 » by JonFromVA » Thu Apr 1, 2021 7:50 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:


The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.

I am of the opinion that the feeling in this roster is tense and nobody is happy at this point...even if they
try to pretend they are fine with tanking or sucking or whatever it is going on.
they are struggling they have chemistry problems the coach doesn't make winning adjustments
good players get sent to the bench or home or Houston none of those things
are helping the rebuild etc.
I think it's time to reconsider your stance on just how little an impact a trickle down effect hurts everyone.
Dan Gilbert is basically mia and despite the criticism of him many have had
imo whomever has the reigns is not making sound decisions at all even if Dan made some poor ones himself
Or maybe he is at the controls but the post Stroke Dan is in lala land


I still see a team willing to play hard, that tries to win, and enjoys winning when they do. None of these things are indicative of a team in disarray or a coach who's lost his team, etc.

Drummond and Porter Jr are talented but brought baggage JBB didn't need to be dealing with. That the Cavs eventually acted rather than allowing either situation to rot and fester to the point it started hurting the team shows that no matter what's going on with Dan, someone in the organization is able to make hard choices.

And furthermore, there's no question those decisions were sound. KPJ may go on to become a superstar and never cause another problem in his career, and that still won't make those decisions any less sound.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#246 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 2:17 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.

I am of the opinion that the feeling in this roster is tense and nobody is happy at this point...even if they
try to pretend they are fine with tanking or sucking or whatever it is going on.
they are struggling they have chemistry problems the coach doesn't make winning adjustments
good players get sent to the bench or home or Houston none of those things
are helping the rebuild etc.
I think it's time to reconsider your stance on just how little an impact a trickle down effect hurts everyone.
Dan Gilbert is basically mia and despite the criticism of him many have had
imo whomever has the reigns is not making sound decisions at all even if Dan made some poor ones himself
Or maybe he is at the controls but the post Stroke Dan is in lala land


I still see a team willing to play hard, that tries to win, and enjoys winning when they do. None of these things are indicative of a team in disarray or a coach who's lost his team, etc.

Drummond and Porter Jr are talented but brought baggage JBB didn't need to be dealing with. That the Cavs eventually acted rather than allowing either situation to rot and fester to the point it started hurting the team shows that no matter what's going on with Dan, someone in the organization is able to make hard choices.

And furthermore, there's no question those decisions were sound. KPJ may go on to become a superstar and never cause another problem in his career, and that still won't make those decisions any less sound.

Maybe if the current core far exceeds KPJ's production and wins at a high clip in this era I could buy into that , but as is I completely disagree as you well know by now
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#247 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 4:18 am

Woj is out with an article, ESPN, wherein he's saying agents threaten potential trade partners of buyout candidates:

"From threats of a player shutting down for the season -- or performing infrequently -- to an agent's implied future retribution involving access to his free-agent clients or draft prospects, it's often easier for teams to walk away from trade talks than to take on a player hell-bent on a buyout."

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#248 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 4:27 am

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:


The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.
I mean the answer is to be very, very careful who you give money to, and guarantee as little of it as you have to until you have to. If that Bynum contract is still legal, where the second half of the season isn't guaranteed until mid season, just offer those deals. Oh, you don't want a to be here anymore and you want to pick your next team midseason, we can help you out with that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#249 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 3:08 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:And this right here is why the Cavs had to pay Drummond 99 cents on the dollar to go play for the Lakers. The league is broken:


The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.
I mean the answer is to be very, very careful who you give money to, and guarantee as little of it as you have to until you have to. If that Bynum contract is still legal, where the second half of the season isn't guaranteed until mid season, just offer those deals. Oh, you don't want a to be here anymore and you want to pick your next team midseason, we can help you out with that.


Ultimately Drummond and KPJ were low risk gambles that cost us very little in terms of assets we gave up for them, but the team just doesn't need disruption, drama, or selfish players really at any price.

Kevin's situation is a lot more complex and hopefully it can be managed without becoming destructive; but we should have been more realistic from the get go with him and made it clear that we'd tear it all down again like we did in 2010 if things didn't go well and that he'd be very difficult to trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#250 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 3:33 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
The Cavs sure don't need the drama, not that they could completely avoid it. They took heat for sending Drummond home, even though surely by agreement, Andre didn't say a single negative thing and issued a "thank you".

Same for KPJ for that matter.

Maybe they should stop trying? Seems to be a lose-lose situation more often than not? But it's perhaps more about the message they send to their own players/agents - who are more in the know about what's going on internally.
I mean the answer is to be very, very careful who you give money to, and guarantee as little of it as you have to until you have to. If that Bynum contract is still legal, where the second half of the season isn't guaranteed until mid season, just offer those deals. Oh, you don't want a to be here anymore and you want to pick your next team midseason, we can help you out with that.


Ultimately Drummond and KPJ were low risk gambles that cost us very little in terms of assets we gave up for them, but the team just doesn't need disruption, drama, or selfish players really at any price.

Kevin's situation is a lot more complex and hopefully it can be managed without becoming destructive; but we should have been more realistic from the get go with him and made it clear that we'd tear it all down again like we did in 2010 if things didn't go well and that he'd be very difficult to trade.


It was pretty obvious ten games into the first season after LBJ left that tearing it down was the only option. The Beilein hiring was a mistake. A big mistake. Outside of that though, Love knew what he signing up for. What mid market teams, and especially rebuilding mid market teams, need to realize is that these guys are all going to take as much money as they can get and then manipulate the situation to get to where they want to go anyway. Don't sign vets to long expensive deals until you're ready to start competing.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#251 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 4:16 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean the answer is to be very, very careful who you give money to, and guarantee as little of it as you have to until you have to. If that Bynum contract is still legal, where the second half of the season isn't guaranteed until mid season, just offer those deals. Oh, you don't want a to be here anymore and you want to pick your next team midseason, we can help you out with that.


Ultimately Drummond and KPJ were low risk gambles that cost us very little in terms of assets we gave up for them, but the team just doesn't need disruption, drama, or selfish players really at any price.

Kevin's situation is a lot more complex and hopefully it can be managed without becoming destructive; but we should have been more realistic from the get go with him and made it clear that we'd tear it all down again like we did in 2010 if things didn't go well and that he'd be very difficult to trade.


It was pretty obvious ten games into the first season after LBJ left that tearing it down was the only option. The Beilein hiring was a mistake. A big mistake. Outside of that though, Love knew what he signing up for. What mid market teams, and especially rebuilding mid market teams, need to realize is that these guys are all going to take as much money as they can get and then manipulate the situation to get to where they want to go anyway. Don't sign vets to long expensive deals until you're ready to start competing.


It's Gilbert's wishful thinking that keeps driving the team in the wrong direction after LeBron leaves, players, coaches, and fans aren't immune to it either. Gotta get everyone on the same page and set a direction for the team, and what exactly did Altman know about doing that?
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#252 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 5:34 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Ultimately Drummond and KPJ were low risk gambles that cost us very little in terms of assets we gave up for them, but the team just doesn't need disruption, drama, or selfish players really at any price.

Kevin's situation is a lot more complex and hopefully it can be managed without becoming destructive; but we should have been more realistic from the get go with him and made it clear that we'd tear it all down again like we did in 2010 if things didn't go well and that he'd be very difficult to trade.


It was pretty obvious ten games into the first season after LBJ left that tearing it down was the only option. The Beilein hiring was a mistake. A big mistake. Outside of that though, Love knew what he signing up for. What mid market teams, and especially rebuilding mid market teams, need to realize is that these guys are all going to take as much money as they can get and then manipulate the situation to get to where they want to go anyway. Don't sign vets to long expensive deals until you're ready to start competing.


It's Gilbert's wishful thinking that keeps driving the team in the wrong direction after LeBron leaves, players, coaches, and fans aren't immune to it either. Gotta get everyone on the same page and set a direction for the team, and what exactly did Altman know about doing that?


It's fine to point out that mistakes were made during the rebuild, but success or failure needs to be judged based upon the results of available alternative pathways, not hoped-for outcomes. Increasingly, I'm concerned that a critical mass of players and agents don't understand, or don't care, that maintaining some semblance of competitive balance for the league as a whole, is necessary for the overall health of the league. I see the NBA sliding into MLB territory in terms of mid markets becoming de facto farm teams.

The Love extension was a mistake, but an understandable one. Losing all three of your big three in 12 months would've been a nightmare from a PR perspective and would've destroyed any chance you had at being competitive. A healthy Love is still a net positive player, it's just that a healthy Love appears too rarely to justify what he makes. A healthy Love, in any meaningful sense, may already be extinct.

You can argue that the Cavs should've gone with SGA or Mikal Bridges instead of Sexton in 2018. I believe that Bridges was reportedly under consideration by the Cavs. But one of the reasons SGA fell to where he did was because his agent made him unavailable for private workouts and other events where teams could evaluate him. That's a problem the league has IMO, not just the Cavs. The draft is too important to the success/failure of a rebuild for agents to manipulate the process that way.

In 2019, the Cavs got jumped. Hunter was off the board (which again is a reason why if you have a shot at a promising SF the year before, you probably need to take it). Garland was widely considered BPA at the time, and frankly, none of the players drafted after him have called that consensus into question with their own play.

This was essentially Windler's rookie season but the Cavs still are not good at getting their best shooters open looks, or even making a point to get the ball in their hands when they're already open. Would anyone be shocked if traded Windler and he went on to have a successful career with another team?

The KPJ situation is what it is. They took a chance and it didn't work out. I'm not going to say anything more because I don't want this thread derailed, again.

I have concerns about Okoro. He's a SG not a SF. A player's true height and reach is something a front office should definitely nail down before the draft. But again, to the extent there's any gray area here, that's on the NBA. At an absolute minimum, there should be no questions as to a player's measurable heading into the draft. If there are, then that player shouldn't be eligible for the draft. If the Cavs understood that Okoro was an inch, or two, shorter than advertised on some fronts, then they should've traded back. It's Okoro's rookie year, he could develop into a good catch and shoot SG, with the ability to cut/slash off the ball, but he pretty much has to for this not to be a miss.

Having said that, the only other guy in this draft who was taken after Okoro, and who also doesn't have huge question marks hanging over his him, was Haliburton. Should the Cavs really have taken another guard who couldn't defend and needed the ball to make a positive impact on the game? Seddiq Bey looks alright, but his actual numbers are pretty underwhelming, and he stayed on the board for a long time.

In terms of the Drummond situation, it was worth a try. TT was perfectly happy having the worst RPM on the team, probably bottom five for starting centers league wide, while putting up deceptive box numbers in a contract year. Meanwhile the Cavs were just getting destroyed on a nightly basis. Love got pushed past his breaking point and we just imploded his trade value. After Beilein realized, on his own, that coaching in the NBA wasn't for him, I don't fault the Cavs for taking, what at the time, was a low risk chance on Drummond.

I also don't fault the Cavs for making the Allen trade. You make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Drummond had a say in how he handled the aftermath, and suffice to say, he could've handled it better regardless of whatever hostage statements the Cavs are being forced to release publicly.

To the extent the Cavs mismanaged anything, they should've anticipated, based on Drummond's contract expectations, that they needed to move him sooner rather than later, and that holding out for the best deal wouldn't end well. But this assumes there was some type of reasonable offer on the table earlier on and I'm not sure that assumption is warranted because I don't think that Drummond is anyone's plan A. He's the quintessential if there's nothing better at the deadline type of guy.

You have to squint pretty hard, even with the benefit of hindsight, to map out clearly better scenarios for the Cavs here and that's a huge part of the problem with the NBA. It's hard enough to successfully rebuild without agents and players manipulating the draft process, or the trade process, or the buyout process. I'm starting feel about this league the same way I did about MLB when I decided to stop giving them my money.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#253 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 5:43 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
It was pretty obvious ten games into the first season after LBJ left that tearing it down was the only option. The Beilein hiring was a mistake. A big mistake. Outside of that though, Love knew what he signing up for. What mid market teams, and especially rebuilding mid market teams, need to realize is that these guys are all going to take as much money as they can get and then manipulate the situation to get to where they want to go anyway. Don't sign vets to long expensive deals until you're ready to start competing.


It's Gilbert's wishful thinking that keeps driving the team in the wrong direction after LeBron leaves, players, coaches, and fans aren't immune to it either. Gotta get everyone on the same page and set a direction for the team, and what exactly did Altman know about doing that?


It's fine to point out that mistakes were made during the rebuild, but success or failure needs to be judged based upon the results of available alternative pathways, not hoped-for outcomes. Increasingly, I'm concerned that a critical mass of players and agents don't understand, or don't care, that maintaining some semblance of competitive balance for the league as a whole, is necessary for the overall health of the league. I see the NBA sliding into MLB territory in terms of mid markets becoming de facto farm teams.

The Love extension was a mistake, but an understandable one. Losing all three of your big three in 12 months would've been a nightmare from a PR perspective and would've destroyed any chance you had at being competitive. A healthy Love is still a net positive player, it's just that a healthy Love appears too rarely to justify what he makes. A healthy Love, in any meaningful sense, may already be extinct.

You can argue that the Cavs should've gone with SGA or Mikal Bridges instead of Sexton in 2018. I believe that Bridges was reportedly under consideration by the Cavs. But one of the reasons SGA fell to where he did was because his agent made him unavailable for private workouts and other events where teams could evaluate him. That's a problem the league has IMO, not just the Cavs. The draft is too important to the success/failure of a rebuild for agents to manipulate the process that way.

In 2019, the Cavs got jumped. Hunter was off the board (which again is a reason why if you have a shot at a promising SF the year before, you probably need to take it). Garland was widely considered BPA at the time, and frankly, none of the players drafted after him have called that consensus into question with their own play.

This was essentially Windler's rookie season but the Cavs still are not good at getting their best shooters open looks, or even making a point to get the ball in their hands when they're already open. Would anyone be shocked if traded Windler and he went on to have a successful career with another team?

The KPJ situation is what it is. They took a chance and it didn't work out. I'm not going to say anything more because I don't want this thread derailed, again.

I have concerns about Okoro. He's a SG not a SF. A player's true height and reach is something a front office should definitely nail down before the draft. But again, to the extent there's any gray area here, that's on the NBA. At an absolute minimum, there should be no questions as to a player's measurable heading into the draft. If there are, then that player shouldn't be eligible for the draft. If the Cavs understood that Okoro was an inch, or two, shorter than advertised on some fronts, then they should've traded back. It's Okoro's rookie year, he could develop into a good catch and shoot SG, with the ability to cut/slash off the ball, but he pretty much has to for this not to be a miss.

Having said that, the only other guy in this draft who was taken after Okoro, and who also doesn't have huge question marks hanging over his him, was Haliburton. Should the Cavs really have taken another guard who couldn't defend and needed the ball to make a positive impact on the game? Seddiq Bey looks alright, but his actual numbers are pretty underwhelming, and he stayed on the board for a long time.

In terms of the Drummond situation, it was worth a try. TT was perfectly happy having the worst RPM on the team, probably bottom five for starting centers league wide, while putting up deceptive box numbers in a contract year. Meanwhile the Cavs were just getting destroyed on a nightly basis. Love got pushed past his breaking point and we just imploded his trade value. After Beilein realized, on his own, that coaching in the NBA wasn't for him, I don't fault the Cavs for taking, what at the time, was a low risk chance on Drummond.

I also don't fault the Cavs for making the Allen trade. You make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Drummond had a say in how he handled the aftermath, and suffice to say, he could've handled it better regardless of whatever hostage statements the Cavs are being forced to release publicly.

To the extent the Cavs mismanaged anything, they should've anticipated, based on Drummond's contract expectations, that they needed to move him sooner rather than later, and that holding out for the best deal wouldn't end well. But this assumes there was some type of reasonable offer on the table earlier on and I'm not sure that assumption is warranted because I don't think that Drummond is anyone's plan A. He's the quintessential if there's nothing better at the deadline type of guy.

You have to squint pretty hard, even with the benefit of hindsight, to map out clearly better scenarios for the Cavs here and that's a huge part of the problem with the NBA. It's hard enough to successfully rebuild without agents and players manipulating the draft process, or the trade process, or the buyout process. I'm starting feel about this league the same way I did about MLB when I decided to stop giving them my money.

THIS
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#254 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 5:55 pm

I have had a growing problem with the leagues policies and the negotiated player rights for awhile or at least the end result as it seems to not help any front office be honest to the fan base or it's players and it empowers the disgruntled player or the yet to be drafted player with preferences on landing spots that dont include cities with bad reps. But the promise of greener grass and sunshine is an easy sell in Feb.
Cleveland has had a terrible rep forever, yet most players know that to be false once here. Of course now you see how this front office is manipulating the process' somewhat not that they are any different from most, but they are doing it so blatantly in some instances it absolutely has to make the current roster either feel less secure or not interested in being loyal or both
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#255 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:17 pm

Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?

Notes: Measured 6’5 barefoot, 6’6 in shoes, 213 lbs, with a 6’8.5 wingspan, and a 8’4.5″ standing reach in his senior year … Went to the same Atlanta area high school as Josh Smith (McEachern) … Was the 37th ranked prospect in the nation entering college by 24/7 and 40th on ESPN …

Jorrye Nixon 4/27/20


https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#256 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:30 pm

Stillwater wrote:I have had a growing problem with the leagues policies and the negotiated player rights for awhile or at least the end result as it seems to not help any front office be honest to the fan base or it's players and it empowers the disgruntled player or the yet to be drafted player with preferences on landing spots that dont include cities with bad reps. But the promise of greener grass and sunshine is an easy sell in Feb.
Cleveland has had a terrible rep forever, yet most players know that to be false once here. Of course now you see how this front office is manipulating the process' somewhat not that they are any different from most, but they are doing it so blatantly in some instances it absolutely has to make the current roster either feel less secure or not interested in being loyal or both


I don't see the Cavs FO manipulating anything. It might be better if they actually tried to manipulate some of these situations tbh (could be worse as well). What's happening is they're reacting to problems, they didn't anticipate, and in some cases, probably should've. In terms of dodged bullets, someone else paid TT and someone else is going to pay Drummond.

The most costly mistake was the Love/Beilein meltdown. Everyone saw that coming for months, local broadcasters, national broadcasters, fans, etc. That's the only situation where I felt like the Cavs as an organization definitely should have stepped in before it got to that point.

The problem is that none of us know who made the decision to hire Beilein. Was that really Altman's call, and his call alone? Did Beilein have free rein, or was he following instructions? But once you invest $120M in a player, you cannot let it get to that point and crater his trade value. If that means you adjust your plans and bring young guys off the bench for a couple months so you can get decent value in a trade for him, then that's what you do. I honestly believe there would've been fisticuffs in the locker room last season if instead of a guy like Love, it had been a player like Boogie.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#257 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:30 pm

Regarding teams like the Cavs being turned in to farm teams for the more desirable teams, there are certainly problems, but there are also solutions. Like stop rebuilding and start building. There are plenty of examples of teams that have had success in recent years, built contenders, even won championships and the one thing they have in common is they didn't bottom out and hard tank year after year.

It just takes steady and solid ownership, front-office, and coaching.

That may never be an option for us as long as Dan Gilbert owns the Cavs, but we still don't understand the full impact his stroke will have going forward.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#258 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:39 pm

I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss
and the same goes for Okongwu and his foot issue.
I am fine with Okoro for now, I just dont like playing him into the ground
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#259 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:40 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I have had a growing problem with the leagues policies and the negotiated player rights for awhile or at least the end result as it seems to not help any front office be honest to the fan base or it's players and it empowers the disgruntled player or the yet to be drafted player with preferences on landing spots that dont include cities with bad reps. But the promise of greener grass and sunshine is an easy sell in Feb.
Cleveland has had a terrible rep forever, yet most players know that to be false once here. Of course now you see how this front office is manipulating the process' somewhat not that they are any different from most, but they are doing it so blatantly in some instances it absolutely has to make the current roster either feel less secure or not interested in being loyal or both


I don't see the Cavs FO manipulating anything. It might be better if they actually tried to manipulate some of these situations tbh (could be worse as well). What's happening is they're reacting to problems, they didn't anticipate, and in some cases, probably should've. In terms of dodged bullets, someone else paid TT and someone else is going to pay Drummond.

The most costly mistake was the Love/Beilein meltdown. Everyone saw that coming for months, local broadcasters, national broadcasters, fans, etc. That's the only situation where I felt like the Cavs as an organization definitely should have stepped in before it got to that point.

The problem is that none of us know who made the decision to hire Beilein. Was that really Altman's call, and his call alone? Did Beilein have free rein, or was he following instructions? But once you invest $120M in a player, you cannot let it get to that point and crater his trade value. If that means you adjust your plans and bring young guys off the bench for a couple months so you can get decent value in a trade for him, then that's what you do. I honestly believe there would've been fisticuffs in the locker room last season if instead of a guy like Love, it had been a player like Boogie.


Kevin never had any trade value. The brought in Beilein to develop young players, not to coddle Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson, nor perpetuate a system that treats players differently.

Altman simply lacked the experience/clout to step-in and sort that out.

Just a whole lot of stumbling over our own feet, IMO.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#260 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:42 pm

JonFromVA wrote:Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?

Notes: Measured 6’5 barefoot, 6’6 in shoes, 213 lbs, with a 6’8.5 wingspan, and a 8’4.5″ standing reach in his senior year … Went to the same Atlanta area high school as Josh Smith (McEachern) … Was the 37th ranked prospect in the nation entering college by 24/7 and 40th on ESPN …

Jorrye Nixon 4/27/20


https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.


Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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