JonFromVA wrote: jbk1234 wrote:
Ultimately Drummond and KPJ were low risk gambles that cost us very little in terms of assets we gave up for them, but the team just doesn't need disruption, drama, or selfish players really at any price.
Kevin's situation is a lot more complex and hopefully it can be managed without becoming destructive; but we should have been more realistic from the get go with him and made it clear that we'd tear it all down again like we did in 2010 if things didn't go well and that he'd be very difficult to trade.
It was pretty obvious ten games into the first season after LBJ left that tearing it down was the only option. The Beilein hiring was a mistake. A big mistake. Outside of that though, Love knew what he signing up for. What mid market teams, and especially rebuilding mid market teams, need to realize is that these guys are all going to take as much money as they can get and then manipulate the situation to get to where they want to go anyway. Don't sign vets to long expensive deals until you're ready to start competing.
It's Gilbert's wishful thinking that keeps driving the team in the wrong direction after LeBron leaves, players, coaches, and fans aren't immune to it either. Gotta get everyone on the same page and set a direction for the team, and what exactly did Altman know about doing that?
It's fine to point out that mistakes were made during the rebuild, but success or failure needs to be judged based upon the results of available alternative pathways, not hoped-for outcomes. Increasingly, I'm concerned that a critical mass of players and agents don't understand, or don't care, that maintaining some semblance of competitive balance for the league as a whole, is necessary for the overall health of the league. I see the NBA sliding into MLB territory in terms of mid markets becoming de facto farm teams.
The Love extension was a mistake, but an understandable one. Losing all three of your big three in 12 months would've been a nightmare from a PR perspective and would've destroyed any chance you had at being competitive. A healthy Love is still a net positive player, it's just that a healthy Love appears too rarely to justify what he makes. A healthy Love, in any meaningful sense, may already be extinct.
You can argue that the Cavs should've gone with SGA or Mikal Bridges instead of Sexton in 2018. I believe that Bridges was reportedly under consideration by the Cavs. But one of the reasons SGA fell to where he did was because his agent made him unavailable for private workouts and other events where teams could evaluate him. That's a problem the league has IMO, not just the Cavs. The draft is too important to the success/failure of a rebuild for agents to manipulate the process that way.
In 2019, the Cavs got jumped. Hunter was off the board (which again is a reason why if you have a shot at a promising SF the year before, you probably need to take it). Garland was widely considered BPA at the time, and frankly, none of the players drafted after him have called that consensus into question with their own play.
This was essentially Windler's rookie season but the Cavs still are not good at getting their best shooters open looks, or even making a point to get the ball in their hands when they're already open. Would anyone be shocked if traded Windler and he went on to have a successful career with another team?
The KPJ situation is what it is. They took a chance and it didn't work out. I'm not going to say anything more because I don't want this thread derailed, again.
I have concerns about Okoro. He's a SG not a SF. A player's true height and reach is something a front office should definitely nail down before the draft. But again, to the extent there's any gray area here, that's on the NBA. At an absolute minimum, there should be no questions as to a player's measurable heading into the draft. If there are, then that player shouldn't be eligible for the draft. If the Cavs understood that Okoro was an inch, or two, shorter than advertised on some fronts, then they should've traded back. It's Okoro's rookie year, he could develop into a good catch and shoot SG, with the ability to cut/slash off the ball, but he pretty much has to for this not to be a miss.
Having said that, the only other guy in this draft who was taken after Okoro, and who also doesn't have huge question marks hanging over his him, was Haliburton. Should the Cavs really have taken another guard who couldn't defend and needed the ball to make a positive impact on the game? Seddiq Bey looks alright, but his actual numbers are pretty underwhelming, and he stayed on the board for a long time.
In terms of the Drummond situation, it was worth a try. TT was perfectly happy having the worst RPM on the team, probably bottom five for starting centers league wide, while putting up deceptive box numbers in a contract year. Meanwhile the Cavs were just getting destroyed on a nightly basis. Love got pushed past his breaking point and we just imploded his trade value. After Beilein realized, on his own, that coaching in the NBA wasn't for him, I don't fault the Cavs for taking, what at the time, was a low risk chance on Drummond.
I also don't fault the Cavs for making the Allen trade. You make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Drummond had a say in how he handled the aftermath, and suffice to say, he could've handled it better regardless of whatever hostage statements the Cavs are being forced to release publicly.
To the extent the Cavs mismanaged anything, they should've anticipated, based on Drummond's contract expectations, that they needed to move him sooner rather than later, and that holding out for the best deal wouldn't end well. But this assumes there was some type of reasonable offer on the table earlier on and I'm not sure that assumption is warranted because I don't think that Drummond is anyone's plan A. He's the quintessential if there's nothing better at the deadline type of guy.
You have to squint pretty hard, even with the benefit of hindsight, to map out clearly better scenarios for the Cavs here and that's a huge part of the problem with the NBA. It's hard enough to successfully rebuild without agents and players manipulating the draft process, or the trade process, or the buyout process. I'm starting feel about this league the same way I did about MLB when I decided to stop giving them my money.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.