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Around the NBA

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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#261 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:46 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?

Notes: Measured 6’5 barefoot, 6’6 in shoes, 213 lbs, with a 6’8.5 wingspan, and a 8’4.5″ standing reach in his senior year … Went to the same Atlanta area high school as Josh Smith (McEachern) … Was the 37th ranked prospect in the nation entering college by 24/7 and 40th on ESPN …

Jorrye Nixon 4/27/20


https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.


Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.

Kuminga is taller than Green Green is listed at 6'6 so I say Green is 6'4 and Kuminga 6'7
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#262 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:53 pm

Stillwater wrote:I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss
and the same goes for Okongwu and his foot issue.
I am fine with Okoro for now, I just dont like playing him into the ground


This is the problem. If a player is willing to work out for you, and has a good work out, then you're more likely to draft him. That should be the tie breaker, not the determinative factor. Teams picking later in the lottery won't even bring in the guys they really want because they don't want to signal that's who they're interested in.

As far as whether the guys picked 29 and 30 will ultimately end up being better than Garland, I would just note that in addition to all the other teams that passed on them, the Spurs passed on Johnson with the 19th pick before snagging him at 29. The Cavs passed on KPJ at 5 and 24 before trading back in to get him.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#263 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:55 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?



https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.


Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.

Kuminga is taller than Green Green is listed at 6'6 so I say Green is 6'4 and Kuminga 6'7
[img]https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/NBA_Global_CMS_image_storage/17/b4/kuminga-green-ftrjpeg_w45fkheygook1oj64wkw0j973.jpeg?t=-2008195497&w={width}[/img]


Well no one is listing Kuminga at 6'7' so maybe Green is far shorter than advertised. In any event, this proves my point. No teams should speculating about a player's true height if he's drafted in the lottery, or even the first round tbh.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#264 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 6:59 pm

Stillwater wrote:I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss


Unless you have the Cavs FO confused with draft savants, it's not really fair to compare their pick to players taken 10, 18, 24 or more picks later. Darius is doing just fine when compared to the players other GM's took shortly before or after he was taken.

But there's one stat that puts Darius well ahead of everyone in the draft not named Ja Morant, and that's assists. We all know the reason why the Cavs felt they needed to draft a PG.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#265 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:01 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss
and the same goes for Okongwu and his foot issue.
I am fine with Okoro for now, I just dont like playing him into the ground


This is the problem. If a player is willing to work out for you, and has a good work out, then you're more likely to draft him. That should be the tie breaker, not the determinative factor. Teams picking later in the lottery won't even bring in the guys they really want because they don't want to signal that's who they're interested in.

As far as whether the guys picked 29 and 30 will ultimately end up being better than Garland, I would just note that in addition to all the other teams that passed on them, the Spurs passed on Johnson with the 19th pick before snagging him at 29. The Cavs passed on KPJ at 5 and 24 before trading back in to get him.

Both KJ and KPJ had immaturity issues. Johnson was posting pictures of himself in a Lambo the day of the fn draft he thought he was a top 10 lock etc.
I think what is interesting is just how important the off court stuff has become for these orgs to the point that so many teams are unwilling to make the better player investment as opposed to the more likely to stay and suck one
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#266 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:04 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.

Kuminga is taller than Green Green is listed at 6'6 so I say Green is 6'4 and Kuminga 6'7
[img]https://images.daznservices.com/di/library/NBA_Global_CMS_image_storage/17/b4/kuminga-green-ftrjpeg_w45fkheygook1oj64wkw0j973.jpeg?t=-2008195497&w={width}[/img]


Well no one is listing Kuminga at 6'7' so maybe Green is far shorter than advertised. In any event, this proves my point. No teams should speculating about a player's true height if he's drafted in the lottery, or even the first round tbh.

Yeah not sure why my link failed of a more recent side by side so I deleted it. Kuminga is easily 3 inches taller than Green. I am inclined to agree both are prob not the 6'8" and 6'6 I have seen for awhile but if anything I would say Kuminga has grown some more too so there is that. here is the old listing with shoes https://247sports.com/Player/Jonathan-Kuminga-46056391/
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#267 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:09 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss


Unless you have the Cavs FO confused with draft savants, it's not really fair to compare their pick to players taken 10, 18, 24 or more picks later. Darius is doing just fine when compared to the players other GM's took shortly before or after he was taken.

But there's one stat that puts Darius well ahead of everyone in the draft not named Ja Morant, and that's assists. We all know the reason why the Cavs felt they needed to draft a PG.

Of course he gets the team involved in your eyes but I am seeing a player struggling to finish and dumping off to bigs early in his career although he is doing a good job of communicating to them they need to get close to the basket when he runs the baseline and needs a bale out etc. I just don't look at DG as a true pg despite being better at running sets than Sexton.
If Suggs is there I bet they draft him
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#268 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:13 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I have had a growing problem with the leagues policies and the negotiated player rights for awhile or at least the end result as it seems to not help any front office be honest to the fan base or it's players and it empowers the disgruntled player or the yet to be drafted player with preferences on landing spots that dont include cities with bad reps. But the promise of greener grass and sunshine is an easy sell in Feb.
Cleveland has had a terrible rep forever, yet most players know that to be false once here. Of course now you see how this front office is manipulating the process' somewhat not that they are any different from most, but they are doing it so blatantly in some instances it absolutely has to make the current roster either feel less secure or not interested in being loyal or both


I don't see the Cavs FO manipulating anything. It might be better if they actually tried to manipulate some of these situations tbh (could be worse as well). What's happening is they're reacting to problems, they didn't anticipate, and in some cases, probably should've. In terms of dodged bullets, someone else paid TT and someone else is going to pay Drummond.

The most costly mistake was the Love/Beilein meltdown. Everyone saw that coming for months, local broadcasters, national broadcasters, fans, etc. That's the only situation where I felt like the Cavs as an organization definitely should have stepped in before it got to that point.

The problem is that none of us know who made the decision to hire Beilein. Was that really Altman's call, and his call alone? Did Beilein have free rein, or was he following instructions? But once you invest $120M in a player, you cannot let it get to that point and crater his trade value. If that means you adjust your plans and bring young guys off the bench for a couple months so you can get decent value in a trade for him, then that's what you do. I honestly believe there would've been fisticuffs in the locker room last season if instead of a guy like Love, it had been a player like Boogie.


Kevin never had any trade value. The brought in Beilein to develop young players, not to coddle Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson, nor perpetuate a system that treats players differently.

Altman simply lacked the experience/clout to step-in and sort that out.

Just a whole lot of stumbling over our own feet, IMO.


If developing players means refusing to bench them when their choices are negatively impacting the team and other players, then you are, by definition, perpetuating a system that treats player differently. You don't have to go full Pop and yank a young guy off the court after his first mistake, but I don't see giving young guys free rein as productive development. The first half of last season was the worst I watched since the Ricky Buckets Davis era (and I only watched that season because of the draft implications). Garland wasn't ready to start, Sexton wasn't ready to pass, and TT was averaging 10 FGA per game in a contract year. It was borderline playground basketball.

You make a $120M investment in a player, that will haunt you for years if his trade value plummets, and you don't do that. I'm sorry, if that was the plan, if the Cavs were good with that, then it really is time for a new F.O.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#269 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:19 pm

Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:I find it hard to believe Haliburton although being one of the most NBA ready guards offensively was ever even a consideration for this front office at 5 any more than say the older Bey or the wildcard Poku.
I also despite reading SGA was scouted here but preferred the Western Conference was simply not picked only based on his or his agents preferences as many orgs are faced with a similar delemma and still pick that prospect.
I think it was common knowledge Sexton "won them over" when he showed up and showed out in workouts with and against current Cavs players and other prospects in attendance. SGA may have gotten the nod had he done the same but it really is laughable how many around the league keep acting as if SGA is that much better of a player than Sexton even if the stats back it a small degree.
There is always the early retrospect takes that seem sensible but the reality is DG for example if he was the BPA (not imo) still has a long ways to go to fill that level of attention and that high a ranking despite showing a large improvement from being a scrub rookie.
I don't know if I can say with any certainty other will have better careers at this point like Herro who has come back to earth after his dominant rookie season or long term prospects like Sekou or Bazley who have not done sht yet. We already can figure KPJ and Keldon Johnson are probably just as good or better than DG though and both were taken late first where others taken in the 2nd like Paschall Nowell and THT all have had better starts but DG could pass them by long term you would hope but he may not.
Okoro is way to raw offensively to know what he will become. I think he is still considered a swingman 2/3 same as they tagged him as coming out of HS. He isnt a big forward or a 3/4 type like they really needed.
Hunter has not been healthy nor that good either so it's not that much of a miss


Unless you have the Cavs FO confused with draft savants, it's not really fair to compare their pick to players taken 10, 18, 24 or more picks later. Darius is doing just fine when compared to the players other GM's took shortly before or after he was taken.

But there's one stat that puts Darius well ahead of everyone in the draft not named Ja Morant, and that's assists. We all know the reason why the Cavs felt they needed to draft a PG.

Of course he gets the team involved in your eyes but I am seeing a player struggling to finish and dumping off to bigs early in his career although he is doing a good job of communicating to them they need to get close to the basket when he runs the baseline and needs a bale out etc. I just don't look at DG as a true pg despite being better at running sets than Sexton.
If Suggs is there I bet they draft him


Lol, I'll lock every thread on this board and force Howard to finally replace me as a mod if we draft Suggs.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#270 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:22 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?

Notes: Measured 6’5 barefoot, 6’6 in shoes, 213 lbs, with a 6’8.5 wingspan, and a 8’4.5″ standing reach in his senior year … Went to the same Atlanta area high school as Josh Smith (McEachern) … Was the 37th ranked prospect in the nation entering college by 24/7 and 40th on ESPN …

Jorrye Nixon 4/27/20


https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.


Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.


Prospects get measured at various stages at various events, but Okoro's numbers were accurate with what the NBA measured.

I'm not sure there will be a normal draft combine this year, but that's where all this stuff is typically sorted out.

Hunter was certainly a serious candidate given we brought him and worked him out (don't recall about Bridges), but we clearly had a need for playmaking that we didn't intend to leave unfilled. If Garland went #4 (or even #3 to the Knicks) obviously we needed a backup plan, and that backup plan was probably not Coby White who would have been more redundant with Collin than complimentary. And Culver (who can barely get on the floor for the 12-win TWolves) was one of the players who was supposed to combine height and playmaking skills in a way that some felt would be a better match with Sexton.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#271 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Interesting post, just a few comments ...

Both SGA and Halliburton made it known they didn't want to play for the Cavs. What's the confusion with Okoro's height you're referring to? Who said he was anything other than 6'5" in barefeet (6'6" or > in shoes)?



https://www.nbadraft.net/players/isaac-okoro/

Just so happens there were a whole lot of 6'5" players in this draft, and we took our pick of them. Okoro was billed as being able to defend 4 positions, and at the moment SF makes the most sense of those 4 for numerous reasons. Does it suck he only has a height advantage at 1 of those 4? Sure, but it won't necessarily hold him back long-term if he learns how to make it harder for opponents to shoot over him.

I'd also love to see something that confirms the Cavs intended to take Hunter over Garland. There were certainly rumors in the media to that extent, but pre-draft rumors are often smoke screens to other GMs. Also at one point, it was expected that Garland would be drafted #4 by the Lakers and in that scenario it probably came down to Hunter or Culver (who was thought to have more upside as a playmaker) or maybe even Williams.

So for example, EVERYONE knew the Knicks were interested in Toppin but soon before the draft it leaked out the Cavs were going to draft him. Yet they didn't. So what was the point? Well, maybe the Cavs hoped to get the Knicks to panic and either offer to trade with the Cavs, or trade up ahead of the Cavs.

Why would they bother to do that?

Well, maybe that same strategy helped them get the player they really wanted the year before.


Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.


Prospects get measured at various stages at various events, but Okoro's numbers were accurate with what the NBA measured.

I'm not sure there will be a normal draft combine this year, but that's where all this stuff is typically sorted out.

Hunter was certainly a serious candidate given we brought him and worked him out (don't recall about Bridges), but we clearly had a need for playmaking that we didn't intend to leave unfilled. If Garland went #4 (or even #3 to the Knicks) obviously we needed a backup plan, and that backup plan was probably not Coby White who would have been more redundant with Collin than complimentary. And Culver (who can barely get on the floor for the 12-win TWolves) was one of the players who was supposed to combine height and playmaking skills in a way that some felt would be a better match with Sexton.


Well, if Garland goes No. 3, then Barrett is probably going number 4.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#272 » by Stillwater » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Unless you have the Cavs FO confused with draft savants, it's not really fair to compare their pick to players taken 10, 18, 24 or more picks later. Darius is doing just fine when compared to the players other GM's took shortly before or after he was taken.

But there's one stat that puts Darius well ahead of everyone in the draft not named Ja Morant, and that's assists. We all know the reason why the Cavs felt they needed to draft a PG.

Of course he gets the team involved in your eyes but I am seeing a player struggling to finish and dumping off to bigs early in his career although he is doing a good job of communicating to them they need to get close to the basket when he runs the baseline and needs a bale out etc. I just don't look at DG as a true pg despite being better at running sets than Sexton.
If Suggs is there I bet they draft him


Lol, I'll lock every thread on this board and force Howard to finally replace me as a mod if we draft Suggs.

Well I guess I should have clarified if they are choosing between fit and BPA like in 2019 lol
I think Green and Suggs are redundant if they believe in the current core and either Mobley,Barnes,Cunningham or Kuminga are the odds on favorites to be the pick depending on availability and pick spot because each of them has similar upside as the other 2. Thats is the one blessing about this class is there are 6 maybe a couple more that are really all about the same tier.
I would definitely not be surprised if they took Suggs over Barnes or Mobley though
SUNDOWN BRINGS A WELCOME CHANGE TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HIDING

Fischella wrote "There are easily 40-50 dudes with higher ceilings than Juzang in this class"
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#273 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:35 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I don't see the Cavs FO manipulating anything. It might be better if they actually tried to manipulate some of these situations tbh (could be worse as well). What's happening is they're reacting to problems, they didn't anticipate, and in some cases, probably should've. In terms of dodged bullets, someone else paid TT and someone else is going to pay Drummond.

The most costly mistake was the Love/Beilein meltdown. Everyone saw that coming for months, local broadcasters, national broadcasters, fans, etc. That's the only situation where I felt like the Cavs as an organization definitely should have stepped in before it got to that point.

The problem is that none of us know who made the decision to hire Beilein. Was that really Altman's call, and his call alone? Did Beilein have free rein, or was he following instructions? But once you invest $120M in a player, you cannot let it get to that point and crater his trade value. If that means you adjust your plans and bring young guys off the bench for a couple months so you can get decent value in a trade for him, then that's what you do. I honestly believe there would've been fisticuffs in the locker room last season if instead of a guy like Love, it had been a player like Boogie.


Kevin never had any trade value. The brought in Beilein to develop young players, not to coddle Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson, nor perpetuate a system that treats players differently.

Altman simply lacked the experience/clout to step-in and sort that out.

Just a whole lot of stumbling over our own feet, IMO.


If developing players means refusing to bench them when their choices are negatively impacting the team and other players, then you are, by definition, perpetuating a system that treats player differently. You don't have to go full Pop and yank a young guy off the court after his first mistake, but I don't see giving young guys free rein as productive development. The first half of last season was the worst I watched since the Ricky Buckets Davis era (and I only watched that season because of the draft implications). Garland wasn't ready to start, Sexton wasn't ready to pass, and TT was averaging 10 FGA per game in a contract year. It was borderline playground basketball.

You make a $120M investment in a player, that will haunt you for years if his trade value plummets, and you don't do that. I'm sorry, if that was the plan, if the Cavs were good with that, then it really is time for a new F.O.


lol, are we talking Collin's rookie season or Darius's?

Not that it really matters ... in both cases, Altman made sure the coach would have no choice but to play the kids.

And again, Kevin Love had no trade value, so it's hard to lose something a player never had. Even if he was somehow putting up 25 & 15 like in his Minnesota days, teams still understand he's injury prone, has a bad back, causes problems on defense, and is owed a boatload of money.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#274 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 7:47 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Kevin never had any trade value. The brought in Beilein to develop young players, not to coddle Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson, nor perpetuate a system that treats players differently.

Altman simply lacked the experience/clout to step-in and sort that out.

Just a whole lot of stumbling over our own feet, IMO.


If developing players means refusing to bench them when their choices are negatively impacting the team and other players, then you are, by definition, perpetuating a system that treats player differently. You don't have to go full Pop and yank a young guy off the court after his first mistake, but I don't see giving young guys free rein as productive development. The first half of last season was the worst I watched since the Ricky Buckets Davis era (and I only watched that season because of the draft implications). Garland wasn't ready to start, Sexton wasn't ready to pass, and TT was averaging 10 FGA per game in a contract year. It was borderline playground basketball.

You make a $120M investment in a player, that will haunt you for years if his trade value plummets, and you don't do that. I'm sorry, if that was the plan, if the Cavs were good with that, then it really is time for a new F.O.


lol, are we talking Collin's rookie season or Darius's?

Not that it really matters ... in both cases, Altman made sure the coach would have no choice but to play the kids.

And again, Kevin Love had no trade value, so it's hard to lose something a player never had. Even if he was somehow putting up 25 & 15 like in his Minnesota days, teams still understand he's injury prone, has a bad back, causes problems on defense, and is owed a boatload of money.


Love clearly has no trade value now, unless you count negative trade value. I don't buy that the organization couldn't have pushed his numbers up over 20 and 10 last season and gotten a late first and expiring contracts. He averaged 17.6 ppg on only 13 attempts, or 3 more than TT, and almost 4 less than Sexton. The Cavs could've done it with Delly starting and running the offense through him. It would've been that easy.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#275 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 8:45 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
If developing players means refusing to bench them when their choices are negatively impacting the team and other players, then you are, by definition, perpetuating a system that treats player differently. You don't have to go full Pop and yank a young guy off the court after his first mistake, but I don't see giving young guys free rein as productive development. The first half of last season was the worst I watched since the Ricky Buckets Davis era (and I only watched that season because of the draft implications). Garland wasn't ready to start, Sexton wasn't ready to pass, and TT was averaging 10 FGA per game in a contract year. It was borderline playground basketball.

You make a $120M investment in a player, that will haunt you for years if his trade value plummets, and you don't do that. I'm sorry, if that was the plan, if the Cavs were good with that, then it really is time for a new F.O.


lol, are we talking Collin's rookie season or Darius's?

Not that it really matters ... in both cases, Altman made sure the coach would have no choice but to play the kids.

And again, Kevin Love had no trade value, so it's hard to lose something a player never had. Even if he was somehow putting up 25 & 15 like in his Minnesota days, teams still understand he's injury prone, has a bad back, causes problems on defense, and is owed a boatload of money.


Love clearly has no trade value now, unless you count negative trade value. I don't buy that the organization couldn't have pushed his numbers up over 20 and 10 last season and gotten a late first and expiring contracts. He averaged 17.6 ppg on only 13 attempts, or 3 more than TT, and almost 3 less than Sexton. The Cavs could've done it with Delly starting and running the offense through him. It would've been that easy.


They didn't need to push his numbers up ... he was already there!

Per-36 Kevin's numbers were 20 & 11 and his TS% was the second highest of his career and that's with Sexland. If a GM wanted to get deluded about what Kevin could give them, everything they needed was already in place. It was just minutes!

But the league knows what he is, what he's struggling with, what he's owed, and that they were in the middle of a pandemic with league income suppressed. In spite of what he did in game 7 of the 2016 finals, there are still fans if not GMs convinced Kevin can't be on the floor in a meaningful playoff game because of his defense.

And finally, while this is a sore point with both of us, but we can't ignore the buyout market. Contenders are getting exactly what they need to fill in the holes in their roster for NOTHING.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#276 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 9:04 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Yeah, those measurements were taken his senior year in college.
Those programs have every reason to boost a player's prospect in the draft. If it means rounding up and being able to improve their own recruitment process, then they're happy to do it. The NBA finally stepped in and started measuring players as a league because pro teams were adding inches to guys after they were drafted and with vets in their own fan guides. Teams were finding out the guys they traded for were shorter than advertised, after the trade.

Obviously, last spring was a mess due to Covid, but look at Kuminga this year. He's listed at 6'6" or 6'5". If the difference is with or without shoes, okay. If the difference is who's doing the measuring, and then you account for shoes, not so good. If 6'6" really turns out to be 6'3 and 1/2, that's going to matter on the court.

As for the rest, yes there are smoke screens. But if that means that neither Mikal Bridges nor Hunter were ever serious candidates to be drafted by the Cavs, well that's not better.


Prospects get measured at various stages at various events, but Okoro's numbers were accurate with what the NBA measured.

I'm not sure there will be a normal draft combine this year, but that's where all this stuff is typically sorted out.

Hunter was certainly a serious candidate given we brought him and worked him out (don't recall about Bridges), but we clearly had a need for playmaking that we didn't intend to leave unfilled. If Garland went #4 (or even #3 to the Knicks) obviously we needed a backup plan, and that backup plan was probably not Coby White who would have been more redundant with Collin than complimentary. And Culver (who can barely get on the floor for the 12-win TWolves) was one of the players who was supposed to combine height and playmaking skills in a way that some felt would be a better match with Sexton.


Well, if Garland goes No. 3, then Barrett is probably going number 4.


Quite possibly, but I can imagine the Hawks and/or Lakers preferring Hunter.

And then, would we take Barrett?

I would think so, but our shooting and playmaking would be even worse if things broke that way.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#277 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 9:20 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
lol, are we talking Collin's rookie season or Darius's?

Not that it really matters ... in both cases, Altman made sure the coach would have no choice but to play the kids.

And again, Kevin Love had no trade value, so it's hard to lose something a player never had. Even if he was somehow putting up 25 & 15 like in his Minnesota days, teams still understand he's injury prone, has a bad back, causes problems on defense, and is owed a boatload of money.


Love clearly has no trade value now, unless you count negative trade value. I don't buy that the organization couldn't have pushed his numbers up over 20 and 10 last season and gotten a late first and expiring contracts. He averaged 17.6 ppg on only 13 attempts, or 3 more than TT, and almost 3 less than Sexton. The Cavs could've done it with Delly starting and running the offense through him. It would've been that easy.


They didn't need to push his numbers up ... he was already there!

Per-36 Kevin's numbers were 20 & 11 and his TS% was the second highest of his career and that's with Sexland. If a GM wanted to get deluded about what Kevin could give them, everything they needed was already in place. It was just minutes!

But the league knows what he is, what he's struggling with, what he's owed, and that they were in the middle of a pandemic with league income suppressed. In spite of what he did in game 7 of the 2016 finals, there are still fans if not GMs convinced Kevin can't be on the floor in a meaningful playoff game because of his defense.

And finally, while this is a sore point with both of us, but we can't ignore the buyout market. Contenders are getting exactly what they need to fill in the holes in their roster for NOTHING.


The trade deadline had come and gone before the pandemic.

I think we just disagree in terms of how tradeable Love was before last year's deadline. They gave Love $120M and never bothered to market him in a first option role. They didn't even try to impress upon Sexton the need to for Love to be a very close second option in terms of shot attempts, and if they did try, Sexton ignored them for which there was no consequence. In fact, Beilein made public statements to the press that dismissed those concerns and equated them to first and second options wanting more shots in college. That's when I knew he was in way over his head.

Add in the fact that Sexton really didn't begin shooting efficiently until the second half of last season, there is no team in the NBA upon which TT should be averaging 10 FGA per game, and we were taking the ball out of our most efficient shooter's hands so two other guys could take dumb shots. The entire thing was ridiculous. It was bad basketball accompanied by huge losses.

We can't trade him now though, not after missing the entirety of another season, that much is clear. The window is closed.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#278 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 9:59 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Love clearly has no trade value now, unless you count negative trade value. I don't buy that the organization couldn't have pushed his numbers up over 20 and 10 last season and gotten a late first and expiring contracts. He averaged 17.6 ppg on only 13 attempts, or 3 more than TT, and almost 3 less than Sexton. The Cavs could've done it with Delly starting and running the offense through him. It would've been that easy.


They didn't need to push his numbers up ... he was already there!

Per-36 Kevin's numbers were 20 & 11 and his TS% was the second highest of his career and that's with Sexland. If a GM wanted to get deluded about what Kevin could give them, everything they needed was already in place. It was just minutes!

But the league knows what he is, what he's struggling with, what he's owed, and that they were in the middle of a pandemic with league income suppressed. In spite of what he did in game 7 of the 2016 finals, there are still fans if not GMs convinced Kevin can't be on the floor in a meaningful playoff game because of his defense.

And finally, while this is a sore point with both of us, but we can't ignore the buyout market. Contenders are getting exactly what they need to fill in the holes in their roster for NOTHING.


The trade deadline had come and gone before the pandemic.

I think we just disagree in terms of how tradeable Love was before last year's deadline. They gave Love $120M and never bothered to market him in a first option role. They didn't even try to impress upon Sexton the need to for Love to be a very close second option in terms of shot attempts, and if they did try, Sexton ignored them for which there was no consequence. In fact, Beilein made public statements to the press that dismissed those concerns and equated them to first and second options wanting more shots in college. That's when I knew he was in way over his head.

Add in the fact that Sexton really didn't begin shooting efficiently until the second half of last season, there is no team in the NBA upon which TT should be averaging 10 FGA per game, and we were taking the ball out of our most efficient shooter's hands so two other guys could take dumb shots. The entire thing was ridiculous. It was bad basketball accompanied by huge losses.

We can't trade him now though, not after missing the entirety of another season, that much is clear. The window is closed.


We "marketed" Andre as a first option and what did that get us?

Nobody wants Kevin or Andre as their first option, they might like them to fill a specific need but not at the kind of money they're making.

So, yes, we fundamentally disagree on Love's value and tradeability.

But hey, there's no time like the present. This isn't last year. Darius and Collin have improved. We have some serious rim protection and perimeter D help for Kevin. Thompson is gone. JBB is running the show.

So, let's see where Kevin as the team's first option takes us, and how long he can stay on the floor until something else breaks.

If you're right, shouldn't he be able to build up his trade value for this Summer? What's going to hold that back? Well, other than the fact that the Cavs could use a healthy and productive Kevin Love more than probably the other 29 teams.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#279 » by jbk1234 » Fri Apr 2, 2021 10:18 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
They didn't need to push his numbers up ... he was already there!

Per-36 Kevin's numbers were 20 & 11 and his TS% was the second highest of his career and that's with Sexland. If a GM wanted to get deluded about what Kevin could give them, everything they needed was already in place. It was just minutes!

But the league knows what he is, what he's struggling with, what he's owed, and that they were in the middle of a pandemic with league income suppressed. In spite of what he did in game 7 of the 2016 finals, there are still fans if not GMs convinced Kevin can't be on the floor in a meaningful playoff game because of his defense.

And finally, while this is a sore point with both of us, but we can't ignore the buyout market. Contenders are getting exactly what they need to fill in the holes in their roster for NOTHING.


The trade deadline had come and gone before the pandemic.

I think we just disagree in terms of how tradeable Love was before last year's deadline. They gave Love $120M and never bothered to market him in a first option role. They didn't even try to impress upon Sexton the need to for Love to be a very close second option in terms of shot attempts, and if they did try, Sexton ignored them for which there was no consequence. In fact, Beilein made public statements to the press that dismissed those concerns and equated them to first and second options wanting more shots in college. That's when I knew he was in way over his head.

Add in the fact that Sexton really didn't begin shooting efficiently until the second half of last season, there is no team in the NBA upon which TT should be averaging 10 FGA per game, and we were taking the ball out of our most efficient shooter's hands so two other guys could take dumb shots. The entire thing was ridiculous. It was bad basketball accompanied by huge losses.

We can't trade him now though, not after missing the entirety of another season, that much is clear. The window is closed.


We "marketed" Andre as a first option and what did that get us?

Nobody wants Kevin or Andre as their first option, they might like them to fill a specific need but not at the kind of money they're making.

So, yes, we fundamentally disagree on Love's value and tradeability.

But hey, there's no time like the present. This isn't last year. Darius and Collin have improved. We have some serious rim protection and perimeter D help for Kevin. Thompson is gone. JBB is running the show.

So, let's see where Kevin as the team's first option takes us, and how long he can stay on the floor until something else breaks.

If you're right, shouldn't he be able to build up his trade value for this Summer? What's going to hold that back? Well, other than the fact that the Cavs could use a healthy and productive Kevin Love more than probably the other 29 teams.


In terms of Drummond's value, it took a big hit when we traded for Allen. He got fewer minutes, fewer rebounds, and fewer touches. More importantly, the prospect of taking back long term salary and getting value for his expiring contract ended. But you make the Allen trade anyway because it's the right move long term.

In terms of trading Love now, it's not going to be possible without attaching draft capital or a prospect who you don't want to trade in a salary dump. I have no faith in his health status at this point and I doubt any potential trade partner does either. In fact, I think there's a a real chance the guy ends up medically retired before his contract is up. There isn't enough basketball left to played in this season to allay those concerns. Some mistakes you can mitigate and learn from. Other mistakes, you have to ride out the consequences. What happened in the first half of last season was the latter. They're called missed opportunities for a reason.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Around the NBA 

Post#280 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 2, 2021 10:31 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
The trade deadline had come and gone before the pandemic.

I think we just disagree in terms of how tradeable Love was before last year's deadline. They gave Love $120M and never bothered to market him in a first option role. They didn't even try to impress upon Sexton the need to for Love to be a very close second option in terms of shot attempts, and if they did try, Sexton ignored them for which there was no consequence. In fact, Beilein made public statements to the press that dismissed those concerns and equated them to first and second options wanting more shots in college. That's when I knew he was in way over his head.

Add in the fact that Sexton really didn't begin shooting efficiently until the second half of last season, there is no team in the NBA upon which TT should be averaging 10 FGA per game, and we were taking the ball out of our most efficient shooter's hands so two other guys could take dumb shots. The entire thing was ridiculous. It was bad basketball accompanied by huge losses.

We can't trade him now though, not after missing the entirety of another season, that much is clear. The window is closed.


We "marketed" Andre as a first option and what did that get us?

Nobody wants Kevin or Andre as their first option, they might like them to fill a specific need but not at the kind of money they're making.

So, yes, we fundamentally disagree on Love's value and tradeability.

But hey, there's no time like the present. This isn't last year. Darius and Collin have improved. We have some serious rim protection and perimeter D help for Kevin. Thompson is gone. JBB is running the show.

So, let's see where Kevin as the team's first option takes us, and how long he can stay on the floor until something else breaks.

If you're right, shouldn't he be able to build up his trade value for this Summer? What's going to hold that back? Well, other than the fact that the Cavs could use a healthy and productive Kevin Love more than probably the other 29 teams.


In terms of Drummond's value, it took a big hit when we traded for Allen. He got fewer minutes, fewer rebounds, and fewer touches. More importantly, the prospect of taking back long term salary and getting value for his expiring contract ended. But you make the Allen trade anyway because it's the right move long term.

In terms of trading Love now, it's not going to be possible without attaching draft capital or a prospect who you don't want to trade in a salary dump. I have no faith in his health status at this point and I doubt any potential trade partner does either. In fact, I think there's a a real chance the guy ends up medically retired before his contract is up. There isn't enough basketball left to played in this season to allay those concerns. Some mistakes you can mitigate and learn from. Other mistakes, you have to ride out the consequences. What happened in the first half of last season was the latter. They're called missed opportunities for a reason.


Love played only 22 games the year before last ... trusting Love to say healthy is a ship that sailed a long time ago before it ever arrived in Cleveland. Even if you want to dismiss his thumb injuries and the shoulder injury as a fluke, there's a reason he lost all that weight.

We signed Kevin to a contract well above his market price. It is what it is.

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