Shumpert as the starting PG

Stillwater · Post #41 » by **Stillwater** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Dupp wrote:Shump can't dribble, pass or make good decision he can't play point guard

no, he is more than proven capable of having a decent handle and his passing ability is clearly under rated by you,despite not being at the same level of ball handling as the once all star point guard Derrick Rose who cannot play defense at all. The bad decision making is something that will be less frequent playing with a higher iq first unit.
People are so quick to forget he came into the league as a point guard and his main reason for being coveted off the ball at any point in time was his ability to play defense at a high level against larger 2 guards and sf's. This is the reason he was and is utilized off the ball to maximize his defensive strengths. However it is my opinion that we need him to be utilized at his true position to get an advantage defensively in our weak defensive back court and more importantly because we have no spacing. Putting him at the point on the first unit with Lebron running the show puts Shumpert in a similar situation to what he already in anyway playing off the ball,but can be a huge advantage on the defensive end of the floor against pg's.
It's not something that I would suggest when it isn't needed,but most of the time it will be.

Dupp · Post #42 » by **Dupp** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:06 pm

If you think shump had a comparable handle to rose there's really no point discussing this.

I think rose sucks too by the way but shump is not the things you think he is.

Stillwater · Post #43 » by **Stillwater** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:28 pm

Dupp wrote:If you think shump had a comparable handle to rose there's really no point discussing this.

I think rose sucks too by the way but shump is not the things you think he is.

I said he doesn't have Rose type handles. I do not think Rose sucks. I think he cannot play good enough defense to warrant being a starter .I am not making this **** up, it is proven Shump has the skill set to play the point & can handle the point depending on the match up but more importantly with Lebron on the floor doing most of the distributing most peoples concerns about decision making go out the window and would without any argument from you or anyone else that is worth it's salt be a upgrade to our problem with spacing and lack of defense with a Rose Wade back court.
Yes we can roll with Rose and bring Swish in instead of Wade and have a decent balance of spacing and defense but this will not work against teams with two high level shooters in the back court like GSW,Portland etc.

Dupp · Post #44 » by **Dupp** » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:34 pm

Sorry my mistake I miss read in a rush

iggymcfrack · Post #45 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:14 am

Best playoff rotation:

PG: Thomas (32), Rose (16)
SG: Shumpert (28), Wade (20)
SF: LeBron (40), JR (8)
PF: Crowder (34), Love (14)
C: Love (18), Thompson (30)

KingRuss · Post #46 » by **KingRuss** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:51 pm

why do you guys think Shumpert is good?

he has some physical gifts but his basketball IQ is atrocious.

I like that it appears he is actually trying hard when he plays- but hes running a million miles an hour and just seems out of control and does dumb things. He doesnt have much of a feel for the game.

I think he fell in love with the idea that he is some kind of celebrity because he plays on a really good basketball team. I was glad to see him cut his hair and play harder. I dunno. If he is not hitting his open threes he just isnt good enough to play on this team-- but if hes shooting 38 or better from 3 he should get more run.

he cant play the point though. He doesnt have the basketball IQ for it- not for more than 10-15 minutes a game.

Stillwater · Post #47 » by **Stillwater** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:12 pm

KingRuss wrote:why do you guys think Shumpert is good?

he has some physical gifts but his basketball IQ is atrocious.

I like that it appears he is actually trying hard when he plays- but hes running a million miles an hour and just seems out of control and does dumb things. He doesnt have much of a feel for the game.

I think he fell in love with the idea that he is some kind of celebrity because he plays on a really good basketball team. I was glad to see him cut his hair and play harder. I dunno. If he is not hitting his open threes he just isnt good enough to play on this team-- but if hes shooting 38 or better from 3 he should get more run.

he cant play the point though. He doesnt have the basketball IQ for it- not for more than 10-15 minutes a game.

tell that to Lue when he moves him to the starting pg position until Rose comes back. He is a huge upgrade to Calderon I think anyone can agree with that, The only time the Cavs played solid defense against Orlando was when he was on the floor. For all of the complaints about him "looking" out of control,say nothing about his impact on the game defensively,and when Lebron is on the floor and Shump doesn't have to make as many decisions the option of utilizing him at the one is optimal regardless of if he lacks the ball handling ,because the spacing is better,and the opponent cannot just negate every basket we get from one of our more traditional guards that don't play defense.
Starting Smith should also be a strong consideration right now as he looks lost not playing next to Lebron. AT least Shump still plays solid defense when Lebron is not on the floor,Smith seems all out of sorts on both ends of the floor without the King.

KingRuss · Post #48 » by **KingRuss** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:25 pm

I do agree with you that I would rather see Shumpert get minutes than Calderon. I have no clue why Calderon is on the roster. I would have much rather of kept Richard Jefferson. They made a bad move signing Calderon- he is atrocious.

Right now- if Rose cant play- id rather have Dwade and JR start in the back court and have Dwade and LeBron "run the point".

JR, Crowder, and Love would provide plenty of spacing.

G- Wade
G- JR
F- Bron
F- Crowder
C- Love

thats how I would handle it.

then you have TT, and Green off the bench in the front court and Korver and Shump off the bench in the back court.

Stillwater · Post #49 » by **Stillwater** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:10 pm

KingRuss wrote:I do agree with you that I would rather see Shumpert get minutes than Calderon. I have no clue why Calderon is on the roster. I would have much rather of kept Richard Jefferson. They made a bad move signing Calderon- he is atrocious.

Right now- if Rose cant play- id rather have Dwade and JR start in the back court and have Dwade and LeBron "run the point".

JR, Crowder, and Love would provide plenty of spacing.

G- Wade
G- JR
F- Bron
F- Crowder
C- Love

thats how I would handle it.

then you have TT, and Green off the bench in the front court and Korver and Shump off the bench in the back court.

yeah there is a strong possibility that happens at some point if Rose misses a lot of time, but I also think you have to factor in that Wade has not been very good either and has never played pg despite being the savvy vet and could do so.
I think the option of using Shumpert at the one is already beginning to make more sense for Lue,given Calderon's weakness' defensively,add that Wade would be better served coming off the bench where he can have more touches and be more effective.

KingRuss · Post #50 » by **KingRuss** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:36 pm

what about just trading for Bledsoe?

Shump, the Cavs first and cap filler?

Stillwater · Post #51 » by **Stillwater** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:55 pm

KingRuss wrote:what about just trading for Bledsoe?

Shump, the Cavs first and cap filler?

would rather have Bradley and just move Frye.
https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6955539
Phoenix does it for Cavs & Pistons 2018 firsts. They are not going to do much better for a player that wants out.
Detroit does it for a player on a multiyear instead of expiring.
Cav's do it,swapping an expiring player who has been regulated to the bench for an expiring player who can be in the rotation.

KingRuss · Post #52 » by **KingRuss** » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:54 pm

yah id definitely take bradley .lol

Avery Bradley would be an AMAZING fit in Cleveland. If I thought that wa s realistic at all id really hope they would pull it off.

I mean- Bradley, Crowder, bron, TT, IT would be a helluva lineup to throw at GSW.

iggymcfrack · Post #53 » by **iggymcfrack** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:33 am

Cavs with Shumpert on the floor this year: +25
Cavs with Shumpert on the bench this year: -22

tidho · Post #54 » by **tidho** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:10 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Cavs with Shumpert on the floor this year: +25
Cavs with Shumpert on the bench this year: -22

That is interesting.
He is benefitting from getting to play with Korver and Green though, rather than the 1st unit that doesn't play defense (outside JR).

Post #55 » by **jbk1234** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:35 am

tidho wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Cavs with Shumpert on the floor this year: +25
Cavs with Shumpert on the bench this year: -22

That is interesting.
He is benefitting from getting to play with Korver and Green though, rather than the 1st unit that doesn't play defense (outside JR).

I know JR's back is hurting but he really doesn't look like he's in NBA shape right now.

iggymcfrack · Post #56 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:50 pm

Now +20 with Shump and -59 without.

afarmenian · Post #57 » by **afarmenian** » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:52 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Now +20 with Shump and -59 without.

And on cue he is out with an injury. You have been shumped.

Stillwater · Post #58 » by **Stillwater** » Thu Nov 9, 2017 5:07 pm

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/video/teams/cavaliers/2017/11/09/1726934/1510244127309-171109-shootaround-coach-1726934
by committee Shump will finally get to start at the 1 against one of the toughest back courts in the league to defend. No surprise too me with Rose out , but I would have done it even with Rose not injured. Sometimes I think these ankle injuries and knee soreness sit outs are just in house changes for certain match ups like this one without having to give explanations about the changes because your starter is hurt etc.
It also wouldn't surprise me if Shump only starts for this game at the 1 even if he plays well,and it is simply about the match up more than anything else.
Lue could have easily put Lebron back at the 1 if he wasn't confident in Shumpert.

JonFromVA · Post #59 » by **JonFromVA** » Thu Nov 9, 2017 7:48 pm

At the very least it'll be interesting to see which Shump we get tonight. I was ok with losing Delly because I thought Shump could make up for it, but then he fell off horribly. Leaving Wade with the second unit which has done pretty good makes sense.

Stillwater · Post #60 » by **Stillwater** » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:34 pm

Having Shump out there in the starting line up & heavy minutes with the 2nd unit definitely improved our defense with the versatility on switches.
Not sure we can do that much switching without him out there and have much success Unless Lue starts giving the energetic Osman some run as well.
It was the first time we saw him in that role this season for extended minutes and I was not surprised at it's effectiveness. However the drop off when he sat was significant and despite his solid defense Harden took advantage when Shump was switched off him onto Capella or Nene but more importantly when a lesser defender was then guarding Harden or a good defender switched off their man to get Harden and the guy he left was now guarded by a lesser defender and Harden found him for the score.
Harden got several tough shots to fall even with Shump or Smith or Green or somebody else in his face.
Either way with the level of play that Harden is at right now I think we did a much better with that line up than we have done against teams without mvp candidates without Shumpert in the starting 5 and it could prove to be a go to line up against elite 3 point shooting units.
I know I am in the minority here, but you have to at least acknowledge that our defense is better with him than without him and the offensive opportunities are there with his presence we just needed to capitalized on them.