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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#21 » by Richfield » Thu Jun 6, 2019 12:16 pm

Everything you wrote about Isaiah supports my point, bad management. That was a bad trade. There was so much more time to trade Kyrie for a better package, surgery or not for Kyrie. Cavs had LeBron at the time and had another crack at a title, so we traded for an injured guy who you're admitting his career is essentially over in relation to Cavs time frame, a system guy who couldn't fit in with Cavs (Crowder), a young center and and a draft pick from an up and coming team. At least I'll give credit for looking to the future for once, but most critics feel Cavs could have done better. The narrative that there was such a rush is bull, surgery or not. Firing the GM known for keeping guys together didn't help set the table for cohesion either.

You can exaggerate my point with "ball out", didn't quite say that. Just that Cavs sell low, buy high, placate to LeBron at the cost of player production ("stand in the corner"), and somehow think it's either/or when it comes to developing players and competing for chips. For consistently successful teams, it's both.

Ill agree with you that Mike Brown is an assistant coach in the league.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#22 » by ToneLocc » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:35 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/06/dan-gilbert-wont-be-with-cleveland-cavaliers-for-2019-nba-draft-but-front-office-has-go-ahead-to-be-aggressive.html

All in all, I’m pretty content with the moves this FO has made. I’m excited to see what Koby can do this offseason. Big opportunity for him...
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#23 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 3:34 pm

Richfield wrote:Everything you wrote about Isaiah supports my point, bad management. That was a bad trade. There was so much more time to trade Kyrie for a better package, surgery or not for Kyrie. Cavs had LeBron at the time and had another crack at a title, so we traded for an injured guy who you're admitting his career is essentially over in relation to Cavs time frame, a system guy who couldn't fit in with Cavs (Crowder), a young center and and a draft pick from an up and coming team. At least I'll give credit for looking to the future for once, but most critics feel Cavs could have done better. The narrative that there was such a rush is bull, surgery or not. Firing the GM known for keeping guys together didn't help set the table for cohesion either.

You can exaggerate my point with "ball out", didn't quite say that. Just that Cavs sell low, buy high, placate to LeBron at the cost of player production ("stand in the corner"), and somehow think it's either/or when it comes to developing players and competing for chips. For consistently successful teams, it's both.

Ill agree with you that Mike Brown is an assistant coach in the league.


Most critics can't point to the better deal that was out there. They can't even point to a rumor of a better deal that was out there. The league-wide reaction when the deal went down was the Celtics paid a lot to get Kyrie. The idea that if Kyrie had gotten the surgery and sat out that year we still could've gotten a better deal is so far divorced from reality I don't even know what to say.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#24 » by Richfield » Thu Jun 6, 2019 5:41 pm

The reality is that it wasnt long after the trade request that the deal went down. Not that early offers are always the worst offers but there was never much of chance for a better offer to develop and then weight the best offers.

The league wide reaction we just disagree about. In addition to that, the people who reacted positively to that trade were people that didnt do due diligence on the IT injury. That was Altman’s job, not the fans’.

Based on how much we’re not seeing eye to eye, we probably wont agree on Cavs history or the management style. My issue with Gilbert’s comment i think was made clear whether you agree with it or not. The rest of this conversation is of a number laid on the ground where you see a six and I see a nine. We’re just on different sides here. Nobody’s reality is less valid.

Looking forward im hoping Cavs start giving us the type of success that looks more like an eight. Well, or infinity. We might not agree going forward. But this stuff in the past we’ll just disagree apparently. No problem.

Moving on to this offseason. As the thread is titled. It could be worse. Cavs arent in such terrible position to make moves once they decide to win some games in the now. Love playing more to his potential at least with Drew last year. I like Collin Sexton pick. And im glad im not a Grizzlies fan.

Cheers
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#25 » by Stillwater » Thu Jun 6, 2019 5:49 pm

Richfield wrote:The reality is that it wasnt long after the trade request that the deal went down. Not that early offers are always the worst offers but there was never much of chance for a better offer to develop and then weight the best offers.

The league wide reaction we just disagree about. In addition to that, the people who reacted positively to that trade were people that didnt do due diligence on the IT injury. That was Altman’s job, not the fans’.

Based on how much we’re not seeing eye to eye, we probably wont agree on Cavs history or the management style. My issue with Gilbert’s comment i think was made clear whether you agree with it or not. The rest of this conversation is of a number laid on the ground where you see a six and I see a nine. We’re just on different sides here. Nobody’s reality is less valid.

Looking forward im hoping Cavs start giving us the type of success that looks more like an eight. Well, or infinity. We might not agree going forward. But this stuff in the past we’ll just disagree apparently. No problem.

Moving on to this offseason. As the thread is titled. It could be worse. Cavs arent in such terrible position to make moves once they decide to win some games in the now. Love playing more to his potential at least with Drew last year. I like Collin Sexton pick. And im glad im not a Grizzlies fan.

Cheers

After the deal was agreed to in principal sending KI to Boston, is when the CLE medical exams had concerns about his timeline to recovery at which point the cavs could have backed out, but there were no other deals offering a pick that was expected to be top 5 with as bad a BKN had been. SO they took the 2nd Ainge threw in for the difference in medical "opinion" but at the end of the day IT himself was not admitting how bad he was either and refusing the surgery which he eventually got after this time here.
You can fault Altman for taking the gamble that got him a couple solid role players from Boston to that didn't materialize at the same level in CLE which I guess you can blame him for not seeing the future... but you cannot fault him for taking a gamble on that pick that became Sexton which was a steal even though it did not yeild a top 5 pick. & you cannot taking the gamble that IT was worth it if he could return to form by mid season on a team with lebron James that was already a contender.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#26 » by Richfield » Thu Jun 6, 2019 6:15 pm

Anybody who was actually watching Brooklyn play basketball at the time, as opposed to hanging on to the memory of the Brooklyn team that gave the Celtics that pick in that big trade (after losing the vets that next offseason) might disagree with you.

People, fans included, were basing that top-5 hope on the memory of that pick’s value many years earlier. Its also Altman’s job to understand the trends of each team and if he did that, he would know that expecting a top 5 pick at that point was an idea that had or was expiring.

Again, i remember the hype on that pick, well before it was the 8th pick, and knowing that it was being over valued based on Brooklyn’s solid development and front office moves.

But who has time to watch Brooklyn in Cleveland. I dont blame the fans for a delayed reaction, or reverse-delayed reaction however you want to put it, as to how much that pick would likely be worth. And thats what the FO was selling Cavs fans or themselves with that acquisition. Oh well.

But its all good. Happy with Sexton anyways. Wouldnt have minded Trey had it been a higher pick as you all expected. But that just brings us back to the same point of management over-relying on a plastic ping pong ball. You guys basically are supporting my points whether you realize you or not.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#27 » by Richfield » Sat Jun 8, 2019 12:29 am

What is, or do the Cavs have a plan for what they want to do with TT?

I see him mentioned in the usual Cavs future articles as though he's gone, it's just a matter of time.

Any chance Cavs can keep him this season? Next season? For his career?

I have a fear of Cavs selling too low with him, for the obvious boxscore type reasons.

Playing hard every possession is a talent, offensive boards are important to winning, good team guys/attitudes make winning more possible, potential for game winning blocks/rebounds are the types of stuff that make the difference when aiming for championships.

Please don't just give this man away.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#28 » by Stillwater » Sat Jun 8, 2019 12:53 am

Richfield wrote:What is, or do the Cavs have a plan for what they want to do with TT?

I see him mentioned in the usual Cavs future articles as though he's gone, it's just a matter of time.

Any chance Cavs can keep him this season? Next season? For his career?

I have a fear of Cavs selling too low with him, for the obvious boxscore type reasons.

Playing hard every possession is a talent, offensive boards are important to winning, good team guys/attitudes make winning more possible, potential for game winning blocks/rebounds are the types of stuff that make the difference when aiming for championships.

Please don't just give this man away.

Not going to give him away, but the market is what it is and unless a contender has injuries to players of his archetype and gives up something better than expected at the dl, They will try to get a future pick projected in the late teens early 20's for his expiring and a longer contract rotation level vet that is a good fit.
I do not see them retaining him unless he is willing to take a huge discount
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#29 » by Richfield » Sat Jun 8, 2019 2:39 pm

Cavs have to pay somebody, there's a salary floor. Should they give that money to guys that haven't shown they deserve it yet (e.g. Cedi) or should they give it to a guy who is undoubtably a consistent asset to the team? Maybe a little of both? If the market doesn't value TT more than a mid late first rounder then they don't plan on paying him a lot either, meaning I'd rather his pay cut take place in Cleveland. If that's not an option, I'd still invest in him or hold on to him until that other team has a change of circumstances where all of a sudden TT will be the answer to what they need. Then if it's later first rounders should at least get two of them for him as opposed to one. Young guys need good vets around, and he's unselfish and won't eat up a lot of fga's. I see him as a wise investment. Until something closer to his true value is offered in return I'm hoping Cavs can continue to benefit from what Tristan brings to the team. His values and strengths in what he does are somewhat elite, in that you don't find a lot of guys like him around the league these days. When push comes to shove, you know he has what it takes to get work done in the trenches when it matters most. Can't think of too many guys that specifically bring what he brings.

It seems a lot of teams now have one "overpaid" guy that helps them maintain salary flexibility for a big trade or for salary floor reasons or what have you. A KCP or JJ Redick type "bad" contract. If not for the reasons above to keep him, then that is another reason he might be wise to overpay, even on a short term contract. In the meantime, other young Cavs players can acknowledge that somebody with his effort and play for each other sense of teamwork gets rewarded in Cleveland. It would be symbolic, an investment in the philosophy of the team.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#30 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 8, 2019 5:18 pm

There's no way I'm paying TT what he's going to want. They shopped him pretty hard LBJ's last year here and found no takers.

He's exactly the type of useful player whose trade value is entirely dependent upon what he's getting paid. If he was represented by another agent, and there was a chance we could get him for cheap - given the fact that we overpaid him on his last contract, I'd consider it. But he's not, so I wouldn't.

TT's status this year is tied to whether we eat salary in a JR trade and re-enter the tax. If we do, I suspect we trade him for cap relief.

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#31 » by gflem » Sat Jun 8, 2019 10:43 pm

TT may have more value at the deadline if some contender has an injury to their primary big. Like JBK said, I agree that he could be dumped for salary reasons. I'm sure Lebron would like to have him on the Lakers but his salary would prohibit that imo.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#32 » by jbk1234 » Sat Jun 8, 2019 11:33 pm

gflem wrote:TT may have more value at the deadline if some contender has an injury to their primary big. Like JBK said, I agree that he could be dumped for salary reasons. I'm sure Lebron would like to have him on the Lakers but his salary would prohibit that imo.
Not if the Lakers swing and miss in F.A.

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#33 » by Richfield » Sun Jun 9, 2019 6:15 am

If Lakers swing and miss and want Thompson, it's not hard to imagine Cavs front office wanting to acquire Wagner from the Lakers, to reunite with Beilein. I'd expect another FRP on top of that (since it could be in the 20's next year and Wags is a 25th himself) and I'd hold out for at least a second FRP in a future year for the proven commodity and champion known as Tristan Thompson. 2 late projected FRPs plus Wags and salary seems like a trade Cavs would sell to their fans. He's worth more imo, (disclaimer I'm not clear if Wagner has a future in the league) or at least something more tangible and certain, but Cavs seem to want to move on based on what you guys are saying. That seems like what Cavs would go after if I can speculate.

I'd prefer to hold on, and if some circumstance happens with an offer Cavs can't refuse, a more proven talent(s) and pick(s), set TT free to go win another chip at that point. I hear you guys on the agent/extension though. Although he might get more money where he can get more minutes depending on market don't see why that can't be Cavs.

For speculating trades Im not clear on when this season is officially over and next begins, for looking at salaries to match in a hyp Lakers trade. Deng is 14M this season, but stretched 3 years at 5 mil starting next season. KCP is their other guy with salary that could get the deal close with 12M, but is a FA this summer.

Does that mean a deal of TT to the Lakers would have to happen before July? Is it still this season until the finals are over? Until draft or free agency? Or do the salaries of this season extend even into free agency for some kind of grace period? I'm not clear if somebody could help me out if you know. Thx.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#34 » by jbk1234 » Sun Jun 9, 2019 6:58 am

Richfield wrote:If Lakers swing and miss and want Thompson, it's not hard to imagine Cavs front office wanting to acquire Wagner from the Lakers, to reunite with Beilein. I'd expect another FRP on top of that (since it could be in the 20's next year and Wags is a 25th himself) and I'd hold out for at least a second FRP in a future year for the proven commodity and champion known as Tristan Thompson. 2 late projected FRPs plus Wags and salary seems like a trade Cavs would sell to their fans. He's worth more imo, (disclaimer I'm not clear if Wagner has a future in the league) or at least something more tangible and certain, but Cavs seem to want to move on based on what you guys are saying. That seems like what Cavs would go after if I can speculate.

I'd prefer to hold on, and if some circumstance happens with an offer Cavs can't refuse, a more proven talent(s) and pick(s), set TT free to go win another chip at that point. I hear you guys on the agent/extension though. Although he might get more money where he can get more minutes depending on market don't see why that can't be Cavs.

For speculating trades Im not clear on when this season is officially over and next begins, for looking at salaries to match in a hyp Lakers trade. Deng is 14M this season, but stretched 3 years at 5 mil starting next season. KCP is their other guy with salary that could get the deal close with 12M, but is a FA this summer.

Does that mean a deal of TT to the Lakers would have to happen before July? Is it still this season until the finals are over? Until draft or free agency? Or do the salaries of this season extend even into free agency for some kind of grace period? I'm not clear if somebody could help me out if you know. Thx.
TT isn't going to be anyone's Plan A. He won't even be most teams Plan B. The Lakers will have to swing and miss on their prime targets and that will take until mid July at the earliest. The Knicks are another possibility. That said, I think you're overrating his trade value by a considerable margin.

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#35 » by jbk1234 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:08 am

Read on Twitter
?s=20

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#36 » by Revenged25 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:39 am

So if the Cavs waive JR themselves, then looking at the cap through shamsports, they will be 468k under the luxury tax, though still over the Cap with a roster of:

Garland/Clarkson/Delly
Sexton/KPJ/Knight
Osman/Windler
Love/Henson
Nance/TT/Zizic
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#37 » by Richfield » Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:03 am

Nice stroke, feetwork, looks active, quick decisions, engaged.

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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#38 » by Richfield » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:37 am

Clarkson firing agent, hiring Klutch Sports.

What are the implications for the Cavs, if any?

Does this accelerate his departure?

Expand his list destinations or reduce it?
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#39 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:26 am

Richfield wrote:Clarkson firing agent, hiring Klutch Sports.

What are the implications for the Cavs, if any?

Does this accelerate his departure?

Expand his list destinations or reduce it?


Pretty soon you won't be able to avoid Klutch clients, might as well start getting used to it. Clarkson's departure will be based on his play, other teams needs, and the play of our young guys. The sooner our young guys are ready to step up, the sooner he's gone. The better he plays and he fills a need to another team, the sooner he's gone, etc.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#40 » by Richfield » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:37 am

I have a feeling he'll be gone before the seasons starts.

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