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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#281 » by gflem » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:50 pm

Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:Sexton was clearly flustered by the refs and the new traveling enforcement. We played without Love, Thompson, and Garland.

well the learning curve issue stems from the Cavs org wanting to develop the young players to the point of in some cases completely changing their offensive approach to games to fit into Beileins style of team ball , and in others cases with vets like Love only slight modifications so they can maximize their minutes.
I think Beilein is going to have to tone it down some and take baby steps until after the deadline otherwise vets like Clarkson and Knight will be so bad they won't garner any return at all. But we have seen this org not care about that in the past as well.
Beilein is more than qualified for the job, the only question is who does and doesn't buy in

I didnt say Beilein isnt qualified, I just dont think that he is going to be able to handle NBA players when the L's start piling up. And they will certainly pile up. Guys that have been in the league for a while just arent going to buy into "losing for a purpose", ie getting veteran players to buy into a "college" type system and also take a back seat to the young guys in order to develop them. Especially guys that have won a title and also guys in contract years.
It just looks like a potentially toxic mix to me. I wouldnt be surprised if this is the only season Beilein is the HC. By all accounts I have read and heard he is a great guy and very good coach but I think it is just wrong time/situation for him. I hope I'm wrong, and I wish him and the team well but.....
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#282 » by Stillwater » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:34 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:And Zizic reportedly has Plantar Fasciitis, and is expected to miss 4 weeks.

probably from Beilein running him to death


Byron Scott use to run players to death. I haven't heard that same thing about Beilein. The truth is that large seven-footers are susceptible to foot problems. It's why the Jazz never asked Gorbert to bulk up.

Honestly, if you're a professional basketball player, you should be taking steps to be in really good shape before the first day of training camp - especially if you're on a bad team whose season didn't extend into May and June. Your paid millions of dollars and get more of an off-season than teachers. The least you can do is spend half of August and early September getting your rear end in really good shape. That as much as anything has annoyed me about this pre-season.

I agree, but Nance if anyone is the front court player I was disappointed in as far as conditioning. Z we never saw much of, but I read somewhere that he was running the floor like a gazelle from day 1 of tc and that nobody expected it and Beilein told him now that he knows he can do that he will expect it all the time or something to that effect. It was probably a poor attempt at humor that Z took literally and his been overworking or something trying to move up in the rotation and be a part of the core since he is often left out of that conversation.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#283 » by JonFromVA » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:11 pm

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:

I didnt say Beilein isnt qualified, I just dont think that he is going to be able to handle NBA players when the L's start piling up. And they will certainly pile up. Guys that have been in the league for a while just arent going to buy into "losing for a purpose", ie getting veteran players to buy into a "college" type system and also take a back seat to the young guys in order to develop them. Especially guys that have won a title and also guys in contract years.
It just looks like a potentially toxic mix to me. I wouldnt be surprised if this is the only season Beilein is the HC. By all accounts I have read and heard he is a great guy and very good coach but I think it is just wrong time/situation for him. I hope I'm wrong, and I wish him and the team well but.....


Dunno 'bout the powers that be, but I'll be perfectly fine if JB has to bench players who can't be bothered to do what he asks of him.

He's a smart guy, though, so I don't think it'll get to that point; and yes there are risks, but I think it's a great time to take those risks and give him a shot to make mistakes and learn on the fly just like the players.

After all, who better than a college coach to coach up a bunch of college players with more to come and even some straight out of high-school?

One things for sure ... what we were doing with Larry Drew sure wasn't working. I would had preferred a younger hire, but if things go well, there's a good shot one of our current assistants will be ready to inherit the job when Beilein is ready to retire. Perhaps that's an advantage of hiring JB Bickerstaff as lead assistant given his Dad's connection to the team. Maybe he won't jump ship the first chance he gets to be a HC again? That kind of stability would be pretty wild ... maybe just a pipe dream ... but at least it's a plan.
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Re: Cavs 2019 pre-season 

Post#284 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:05 am

gflem wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
gflem wrote:

I didnt say Beilein isnt qualified, I just dont think that he is going to be able to handle NBA players when the L's start piling up. And they will certainly pile up. Guys that have been in the league for a while just arent going to buy into "losing for a purpose", ie getting veteran players to buy into a "college" type system and also take a back seat to the young guys in order to develop them. Especially guys that have won a title and also guys in contract years.
It just looks like a potentially toxic mix to me. I wouldnt be surprised if this is the only season Beilein is the HC. By all accounts I have read and heard he is a great guy and very good coach but I think it is just wrong time/situation for him. I hope I'm wrong, and I wish him and the team well but.....
If we're being honest, only TT, Clarkson, and possibly Henson, have a legitimate case for contract-year concerns. I expect them to get burn with an eye towards trading them before the halfway point.

The rest of our expiring contract guys are on the roster because they were salary dumped. They can give back some money, take a buyout, and try to find another roster spot if they don't like what's going on.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#285 » by Stillwater » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:14 pm

not sure at all what indy is looking for but if they are shopping Sabonis i could see him being a target of this org. the fit would be solid compared to current options.
unlikely but i wonder what else they would give up to have a kevin love myles turner front court.
sabonis would have to show interest though and plenty of better teams will be calling on him but nobody is holding a perfect fit next to turner besides us.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#286 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:22 pm

Stillwater wrote:not sure at all what indy is looking for but if they are shopping Sabonis i could see him being a target of this org. the fit would be solid compared to current options.
unlikely but i wonder what else they would give up to have a kevin love myles turner front court.
sabonis would have to show interest though and plenty of better teams will be calling on him but nobody is holding a perfect fit next to turner besides us.
I'd much rather wait until this summer and then make a big offer if he plays well this season. Maybe throw the Pacers a protected pick not to match.

A lot of his value is based on the most optimistic projections. He underwhelmed against the Celtics when they needed him to step up. The Pacers are the ones who have to wrestle with the risk that this might be as good as he gets. We shouldn't give value to assume it for them.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#287 » by JonFromVA » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:36 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:not sure at all what indy is looking for but if they are shopping Sabonis i could see him being a target of this org. the fit would be solid compared to current options.
unlikely but i wonder what else they would give up to have a kevin love myles turner front court.
sabonis would have to show interest though and plenty of better teams will be calling on him but nobody is holding a perfect fit next to turner besides us.
I'd much rather wait until this summer and then make a big offer if he plays well this season. Maybe throw the Pacers a protected pick not to match.

A lot of his value is based on the most optimistic projections. He underwhelmed against the Celtics when they needed him to step up. The Pacers are the ones who have to wrestle with the risk that this might be as good as he gets. We shouldn't give value to assume it for them.

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Indiana might be willing to make an all in move, so yeah things could get interesting; but we don't have the best history with their gm though or PG13 might had been a Cav.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#288 » by jbk1234 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:10 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:not sure at all what indy is looking for but if they are shopping Sabonis i could see him being a target of this org. the fit would be solid compared to current options.
unlikely but i wonder what else they would give up to have a kevin love myles turner front court.
sabonis would have to show interest though and plenty of better teams will be calling on him but nobody is holding a perfect fit next to turner besides us.
I'd much rather wait until this summer and then make a big offer if he plays well this season. Maybe throw the Pacers a protected pick not to match.

A lot of his value is based on the most optimistic projections. He underwhelmed against the Celtics when they needed him to step up. The Pacers are the ones who have to wrestle with the risk that this might be as good as he gets. We shouldn't give value to assume it for them.

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Indiana might be willing to make an all in move, so yeah things could get interesting; but we don't have the best history with their gm though or PG13 might had been a Cav.
It's really just a matter of doing to the Pacers what they did to the Bucks with Brogdon. Make them a tax team if they match and offer them something not to.

But really, I worry about the type of money Sabonis and Brown want. I'd like another season in the sample size before offering either of them that type of deal.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#289 » by Stillwater » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:54 am

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'd much rather wait until this summer and then make a big offer if he plays well this season. Maybe throw the Pacers a protected pick not to match.

A lot of his value is based on the most optimistic projections. He underwhelmed against the Celtics when they needed him to step up. The Pacers are the ones who have to wrestle with the risk that this might be as good as he gets. We shouldn't give value to assume it for them.

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Indiana might be willing to make an all in move, so yeah things could get interesting; but we don't have the best history with their gm though or PG13 might had been a Cav.
It's really just a matter of doing to the Pacers what they did to the Bucks with Brogdon. Make them a tax team if they match and offer them something not to.

But really, I worry about the type of money Sabonis and Brown want. I'd like another season in the sample size before offering either of them that type of deal.

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it would be better, but it sounds like they will move him before that happens. He is not a great rim protector, but his defense is serviceable, and was not asked to do that much next to Turner anyway. The key thing with him is his upside offensively based on an elite offensive skillset / and IQ . I am kind of under the impression he would be much better at the 5 full time than at the 4 which is why I think he is underrated with how he has been utilized for the Pacers.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#290 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:15 am

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Indiana might be willing to make an all in move, so yeah things could get interesting; but we don't have the best history with their gm though or PG13 might had been a Cav.
It's really just a matter of doing to the Pacers what they did to the Bucks with Brogdon. Make them a tax team if they match and offer them something not to.

But really, I worry about the type of money Sabonis and Brown want. I'd like another season in the sample size before offering either of them that type of deal.

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it would be better, but it sounds like they will move him before that happens. He is not a great rim protector, but his defense is serviceable, and was not asked to do that much next to Turner anyway. The key thing with him is his upside offensively based on an elite offensive skillset / and IQ . I am kind of under the impression he would be much better at the 5 full time than at the 4 which is why I think he is underrated with how he has been utilized for the Pacers.
I'm not all convinced that he's worth a rookie max. Neither are the Pacers which should give smart teams pause.


Also, reports are they're asking for too much in trade talks.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#291 » by Stillwater » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:49 am

i think the pacers chose to pay turner and dont like sabonis playing out of position next to turner
so they wont pay him.
i wouldnt want to overpay him but id bet indy is low balling him and his gripe is justifiable.
but who am i kidding, we have enough bigs already
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#292 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:48 pm

Stillwater wrote:i think the pacers chose to pay turner and dont like sabonis playing out of position next to turner
so they wont pay him.
i wouldnt want to overpay him but id bet indy is low balling him and his gripe is justifiable.
but who am i kidding, we have enough bigs already
They reportedly offered him $18M per which is more than fair based on what he's actually shown on the court. You're in bad contract terroritory if you max him and he levels off. There's a real glut of centers and market value is getting ratcheted down at that position.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#293 » by Stillwater » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:42 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:i think the pacers chose to pay turner and dont like sabonis playing out of position next to turner
so they wont pay him.
i wouldnt want to overpay him but id bet indy is low balling him and his gripe is justifiable.
but who am i kidding, we have enough bigs already
They reportedly offered him $18M per which is more than fair based on what he's actually shown on the court. You're in bad contract terroritory if you max him and he levels off. There's a real glut of centers and market value is getting ratcheted down at that position.

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im surprised they offered that much.
yeah he hasn't shown enough to get more and somebody prob will overpay him on his next deal.
if hes all about the $ i wouldnt want him in a cle jeresey anyway
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#294 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:i think the pacers chose to pay turner and dont like sabonis playing out of position next to turner
so they wont pay him.
i wouldnt want to overpay him but id bet indy is low balling him and his gripe is justifiable.
but who am i kidding, we have enough bigs already
They reportedly offered him $18M per which is more than fair based on what he's actually shown on the court. You're in bad contract terroritory if you max him and he levels off. There's a real glut of centers and market value is getting ratcheted down at that position.

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im surprised they offered that much.
yeah he hasn't shown enough to get more and somebody prob will overpay him on his next deal.
if hes all about the $ i wouldnt want him in a cle jeresey anyway


That'd mostly preclude us from using free-agency. It's risky to overpay a player above their market value, but if the player fits what your building or has untapped potential - it can be worth it. There's just a lot of trade-offs, weighing the present value of a better player .vs. the future value of lesser players signed on good deals .vs. taking a risk on a high-upside player.

We've bemoaned the signings of Hughes, Marshall, and Jones; but waiting for something better may not had worked out. Joe Johnson was a restricted free-agent and might had still ended up being traded rather than being allowed to sign with the Cavs, and the prize of the next free-agency was Ben Wallace who was on the downslope of his career.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#295 » by jbk1234 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:12 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:They reportedly offered him $18M per which is more than fair based on what he's actually shown on the court. You're in bad contract terroritory if you max him and he levels off. There's a real glut of centers and market value is getting ratcheted down at that position.

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im surprised they offered that much.
yeah he hasn't shown enough to get more and somebody prob will overpay him on his next deal.
if hes all about the $ i wouldnt want him in a cle jeresey anyway


That'd mostly preclude us from using free-agency. It's risky to overpay a player above their market value, but if the player fits what your building or has untapped potential - it can be worth it. There's just a lot of trade-offs, weighing the present value of a better player .vs. the future value of lesser players signed on good deals .vs. taking a risk on a high-upside player.

We've bemoaned the signings of Hughes, Marshall, and Jones; but waiting for something better may not had worked out. Joe Johnson was a restricted free-agent and might had still ended up being traded rather than being allowed to sign with the Cavs, and the prize of the next free-agency was Ben Wallace who was on the downslope of his career.


So there's really two issues: (1) Are the Cavs at a point in their rebuild where they should be taking those types of risks; and (2) are you confident enough in the player that you're willing to forgo the additional year of evaluation by trading for that player now. I think the answers to both of the questions is presently no. I might feel differently in the summer, but right now, I'd rather maintain the financial flexibility and see what happens with the draft.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#296 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:59 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Stillwater wrote:im surprised they offered that much.
yeah he hasn't shown enough to get more and somebody prob will overpay him on his next deal.
if hes all about the $ i wouldnt want him in a cle jeresey anyway


That'd mostly preclude us from using free-agency. It's risky to overpay a player above their market value, but if the player fits what your building or has untapped potential - it can be worth it. There's just a lot of trade-offs, weighing the present value of a better player .vs. the future value of lesser players signed on good deals .vs. taking a risk on a high-upside player.

We've bemoaned the signings of Hughes, Marshall, and Jones; but waiting for something better may not had worked out. Joe Johnson was a restricted free-agent and might had still ended up being traded rather than being allowed to sign with the Cavs, and the prize of the next free-agency was Ben Wallace who was on the downslope of his career.


So there's really two issues: (1) Are the Cavs at a point in their rebuild where they should be taking those types of risks; and (2) are you confident enough in the player that you're willing to forgo the additional year of evaluation by trading for that player now. I think the answers to both of the questions is presently no. I might feel differently in the summer, but right now, I'd rather maintain the financial flexibility and see what happens with the draft.


Yeah, I'm not convinced Sabonis is the guy to take the risk on, but if you find the guy, and given the opportunity - you shouldn't wait to lock him down.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#297 » by jbk1234 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:24 am

Cavs have yet to give up 100 points this season which is kind of amazing given the fact our defense isn't that great. I think limiting the other team's offense to a single shot, limiting good three point looks, and not fouling much is helping on that front.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#298 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:13 pm

jbk1234 wrote:Cavs have yet to give up 100 points this season which is kind of amazing given the fact our defense isn't that great. I think limiting the other team's offense to a single shot, limiting good three point looks, and not fouling much is helping on that front.


Imagine if they can coach up Garland to stop giving up layups or figure out how to send him some help.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#299 » by jbk1234 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:25 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Cavs have yet to give up 100 points this season which is kind of amazing given the fact our defense isn't that great. I think limiting the other team's offense to a single shot, limiting good three point looks, and not fouling much is helping on that front.


Imagine if they can coach up Garland to stop giving up layups or figure out how to send him some help.


Yeah Garland and KPJ have defended like 19-year olds. The problem is that none of Delly, Clarkson, or Knight are particularly good defenders. Delly is replacement-level on a good day and he's our cooler.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#300 » by JonFromVA » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:29 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:Cavs have yet to give up 100 points this season which is kind of amazing given the fact our defense isn't that great. I think limiting the other team's offense to a single shot, limiting good three point looks, and not fouling much is helping on that front.


Imagine if they can coach up Garland to stop giving up layups or figure out how to send him some help.


Yeah Garland and KPJ have defended like 19-year olds. The problem is that none of Delly, Clarkson, or Knight are particularly good defenders. Delly is replacement-level on a good day and he's our cooler.


Otoh, Sexton looks better, or maybe guarding SG's is just that much easier.

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