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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#321 » by Stillwater » Sat Dec 7, 2019 2:12 pm

i guess Love is officially being shopped given the dec 15 availability of other players...but have the Cavs done enough to show he "still got it"
i dont know. ...
he does still have it, but we should be force feeding him the rock now that hes being shopped. Beilein will just have postpone his devrlopment rotations and demote Garland ,Sexton and anyone else preventing high usage KLove until hes traded even if its only a couple of games.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#322 » by gflem » Sat Dec 7, 2019 2:51 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:I posted about the Beilein thing before the season started. Not that he isn't qualified, just that he has never been in this situation. Kind of like the Browns unfortunately. It is way different coaching 18 to 20 year olds in college than in the NBA. Especially kids that didn't even play a quarter of the season in college and now are being expected to play rotation minutes. Not his fault, but this team is not situated to succeed. The vets are playing to the trade deadline, and the rooks have no idea what the NBA season is about, never having experienced it. And the head coach hasn't either.
Again, it is by design that the team isn't going to win. They need as many high picks as possible and can't afford to see this seasons upcoming frp convey if they happen to win a couple games too many. Certainly not the best situation for any head coach, rookie or otherwise. And by the way, when is coach going to get his first technical? I know he is a really great guy by all accounts, but he needs to get the refs attention when a call is wrong, or at least iffy. The nice guy rep isn't helping his under talented team at all.
It is nice to have a developmental coach in theory at this point of a rebuild, but a solid respected NBA coach with experience handling adult NBA players might have a better chance at providing the guidance needed for all of the players on the roster. Although the Knicks just fired Fizdale which might refute my point, but it is the Knicks so maybe not.
I know it's a players league, but no one outside of Love, and maybe TT, has any business doing anything other than saying yes coach. I thought we were trying to build a system and culture here. How do you give up on that 20 games in to the very first season?

It's not like we're playing better with these guys doing their own thing. We're getting run out of the gym every other night.

If young players aren't listening on a regular basis, they can have a seat. If vets in a contract year like Clarkson have an issue, their agent can go find a trade that makes sense for both teams.

When your best player asks out because your team has lost control of 19 & 20 year olds, that's an organizational failure.

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Agree with all that you said. I'm not advocating firing Beilein here just pointing out the obvious I guess. Sad that it took only 20 games before this stuff started. I like that the vets are the coming to his defense here but I hope that the team doesn't have a split between young players and the vets. Hopefully this is an isolated thing where it is just one guy who just wants out and is trying to accelerate his own exit.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#323 » by jbk1234 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 3:18 pm

gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:I posted about the Beilein thing before the season started. Not that he isn't qualified, just that he has never been in this situation. Kind of like the Browns unfortunately. It is way different coaching 18 to 20 year olds in college than in the NBA. Especially kids that didn't even play a quarter of the season in college and now are being expected to play rotation minutes. Not his fault, but this team is not situated to succeed. The vets are playing to the trade deadline, and the rooks have no idea what the NBA season is about, never having experienced it. And the head coach hasn't either.
Again, it is by design that the team isn't going to win. They need as many high picks as possible and can't afford to see this seasons upcoming frp convey if they happen to win a couple games too many. Certainly not the best situation for any head coach, rookie or otherwise. And by the way, when is coach going to get his first technical? I know he is a really great guy by all accounts, but he needs to get the refs attention when a call is wrong, or at least iffy. The nice guy rep isn't helping his under talented team at all.
It is nice to have a developmental coach in theory at this point of a rebuild, but a solid respected NBA coach with experience handling adult NBA players might have a better chance at providing the guidance needed for all of the players on the roster. Although the Knicks just fired Fizdale which might refute my point, but it is the Knicks so maybe not.
I know it's a players league, but no one outside of Love, and maybe TT, has any business doing anything other than saying yes coach. I thought we were trying to build a system and culture here. How do you give up on that 20 games in to the very first season?

It's not like we're playing better with these guys doing their own thing. We're getting run out of the gym every other night.

If young players aren't listening on a regular basis, they can have a seat. If vets in a contract year like Clarkson have an issue, their agent can go find a trade that makes sense for both teams.

When your best player asks out because your team has lost control of 19 & 20 year olds, that's an organizational failure.

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Agree with all that you said. I'm not advocating firing Beilein here just pointing out the obvious I guess. Sad that it took only 20 games before this stuff started. I like that the vets are the coming to his defense here but I hope that the team doesn't have a split between young players and the vets. Hopefully this is an isolated thing where it is just one guy who just wants out and is trying to accelerate his own exit.
I mean neither Clarkson, nor any of the young guys, are presently good enough for this nonsense. It's not like we have Doncic or a young AD on the team where you'd have a tough decision to make. We don't even have a Tatum in there. If someone in that locker room believes they've got franchise player talent, and the system is holding them back, it's probably time for a reality check.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#324 » by gflem » Sat Dec 7, 2019 5:53 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I mean neither Clarkson, nor any of the young guys, are presently good enough for this nonsense. It's not like we have Doncic or a young AD on the team where you'd have a tough decision to make. We don't even have a Tatum in there. If someone in that locker room believes they've got franchise player talent, and the system is holding them back, it's probably time for a reality check.

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Yeah but what you and I think isn't really the point. If the player(s) believe that they are a franchhise talent nobody is going to tell him different. And they also have their agents in their ears, possibly telling them they need out to increase their value, or selling them on playing for another team that has shown interest.
These are the types of issues that college coaches don't face, players have to toe the line in college or they lose pt, which could cost them the opportunity to get to the NBA.And there no trades in the college game and (allegedly) no agents to stir things up. They have to blend into whatever system the coach is running or risk losing out in the draft. There are a few exceptions for the most talented players but for the most part that is it.
It's looking like Beilein is getting a crash course in player relations and how life is in the league.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#325 » by jbk1234 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 6:05 pm

gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
gflem wrote:

Yeah but what you and I think isn't really the point. If the player(s) believe that they are a franchhise talent nobody is going to tell him different. And they also have their agents in their ears, possibly telling them they need out to increase their value, or selling them on playing for another team that has shown interest.
These are the types of issues that college coaches don't face, players have to toe the line in college or they lose pt, which could cost them the opportunity to get to the NBA.And there no trades in the college game and (allegedly) no agents to stir things up. They have to blend into whatever system the coach is running or risk losing out in the draft. There are a few exceptions for the most talented players but for the most part that is it.
It's looking like Beilein is getting a crash course in player relations and how life is in the league.


Again, I thought the entire point of bringing in Beilein was to develop a Spurs-like system. Do you think Pop doesn't use PT as a motivational too? You think guys who buck on the Spurs aren't put on the trade block? Also, players shouldn't kid themselves, that problem-child label impacts their market value. If a player is perceived as being unable to play within an offensive system, certain teams won't even look to sign them.

TT and Nance have clearly bought in and I was encouraged to see them vocally defend Beilein. My strong suspicion is that the players behind the leaks are the same players who are abandoning the offense because they're personally better in the PNR. If Clarkson wants out, that can be arranged. If Sexton or Garland want to do their own thing, they can move back in the depth chart. I'd rather lose every game for the rest of the season and be serious about building a system and culture where you're either here for the good of the team, or you're not here at all, than cede control to young guys and career sixth men.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#326 » by Stillwater » Sat Dec 7, 2019 7:21 pm

I would not discount the possibility of Sexton or Garland or even KPJ getting traded sooner than later either even though the org is dead set on development. I mean who is to say Garland isn't the player frustrated with Beilein given how bad he has been, or Sexton isn't disgruntled after playing so well to finish last season, maybe KPJ think s he deserves a starting role over Osman...who knows what exactly is going on.
the bottom line though is it really only comes down to 2 things:
1 only the players being pressed into roles that they are not adept at playing or even more likely those getting minutes/usage cut or eliminated for the sake of youth development have "justifiable"motivation to be mad at Beilein and outside of Clarkson and Love the only ones are players who were not in the rotation anyway like Knight.

2 It's somebody who thinks they are beyond teaching and coaching and want no part of being talked down too... that could be anyone from a pampered nba kid in Garland who wanted to be a Laker to a extension denied Zizic who never gets pt.
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#327 » by jbk1234 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 8:21 pm

Stillwater wrote:I would not discount the possibility of Sexton or Garland or even KPJ getting traded sooner than later either even though the org is dead set on development. I mean who is to say Garland isn't the player frustrated with Beilein given how bad he has been, or Sexton isn't disgruntled after playing so well to finish last season, maybe KPJ think s he deserves a starting role over Osman...who knows what exactly is going on.
the bottom line though is it really only comes down to 2 things:
1 only the players being pressed into roles that they are not adept at playing or even more likely those getting minutes/usage cut or eliminated for the sake of youth development have "justifiable"motivation to be mad at Beilein and outside of Clarkson and Love the only ones are players who were not in the rotation anyway like Knight.

2 It's somebody who thinks they are beyond teaching and coaching and want no part of being talked down too... that could be anyone from a pampered nba kid in Garland who wanted to be a Laker to a extension denied Zizic who never gets pt.


I think we should be on the phone with Klutch about Clarkson and telling them to find a deal that makes sense for both the Cavs and the other team.

People forget how dumb 19 and 20 year old young men are. I don't because I made a bunch of poor decisions at that age. Hopefully, the way TT, Nance and Henson all spoke out about that story will check some of this nonsense. But if it doesn't, I'm really not down with going through the Kyrie and Dion garbage again. Byron Scott ruined Kyrie to the point where it took the GOAT coming back home and actually taking the ball out of his hands. I'm okay with mistakes. I'm not okay with young guys just doing what they want. As you saw with Kyrie, once those habits cement, they don't change. Ever.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#328 » by JonFromVA » Sat Dec 7, 2019 8:43 pm

We probably shouldn't be going nuts because someone like B Knight decided to vent to a reporter.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#329 » by jbk1234 » Sat Dec 7, 2019 10:58 pm

JonFromVA wrote:We probably shouldn't be going nuts because someone like B Knight decided to vent to a reporter.
If all that was going on was a Vardon article, this isn't a thread. He's a bad faith, click bait, reporter. But you can see the team splitting on the court.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#330 » by JonFromVA » Sun Dec 8, 2019 3:48 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:We probably shouldn't be going nuts because someone like B Knight decided to vent to a reporter.
If all that was going on was a Vardon article, this isn't a thread. He's a bad faith, click bait, reporter. But you can see the team splitting on the court.


I see a team struggling to figure out how to win games, and doing what they're told vs what they know.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#331 » by jbk1234 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 10:47 pm

Yikes. The podcast is no bueno re: Love's relationship with Beilein and trade value. http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=28256372

Frankly, this entire situation has been completely mismanaged, at multiple levels, including Love himself. It's incumbent upon Altman to come in and clean up the mess now. He has to tell the rest of the team to continue to get the ball to Love so we can trade him without taking a complete bath. We could have a real bad situation on our hands if Love doesn't start balling out.

I don't even want to get into the number of ways that people dropped the ball to create a situation where we, a team with plenty of cap space, might have to practically give away one of our best players with no way to replace his production.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#332 » by jbk1234 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:26 pm

And here's Love sounding like he doesn't even want to be traded.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28261089/kevin-love-different-cavs-trade-talk

I swear if the Cavs hired Beilein without (1) talking to Love first; (2) talking to Beilein about the importance of keeping Love happy; or (3) having a trade for Love already lined up, then they're giving the friggin Browns a run for their money when it comes to incompetence. Love's not LBJ, but if you're going to go in this direction, he's good enough, and owed enough money, that you work this stuff out well before it gets to this point.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#333 » by gflem » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:34 pm

jbk1234 wrote:And here's Love sounding like he doesn't even want to be traded.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28261089/kevin-love-different-cavs-trade-talk

I swear if the Cavs hired Beilein without (1) talking to Love first; (2) talking to Beilein about the importance of keeping Love happy; or (3) having a trade for Love already lined up, then they're giving the friggin Browns a run for their money when it comes to incompetence. Love's not LBJ, but if you're going to go in this direction, he's good enough, and owed enough money, that you work this stuff out well before it gets to this point.

Completely agree, if you are going to ask him to be the "good soldier" at least get with him to gauge how he feels about what you are going to do. I mean, he shouldn't have the ability to make organizational decisions (no player really should), but it would give the team an idea if they needed to have a contingency plan in place. The trade deadline can't get here soon enough.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#334 » by jbk1234 » Mon Dec 9, 2019 11:36 pm

gflem wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:And here's Love sounding like he doesn't even want to be traded.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28261089/kevin-love-different-cavs-trade-talk

I swear if the Cavs hired Beilein without (1) talking to Love first; (2) talking to Beilein about the importance of keeping Love happy; or (3) having a trade for Love already lined up, then they're giving the friggin Browns a run for their money when it comes to incompetence. Love's not LBJ, but if you're going to go in this direction, he's good enough, and owed enough money, that you work this stuff out well before it gets to this point.

Completely agree, if you are going to ask him to be the "good soldier" at least get with him to gauge how he feels about what you are going to do. I mean, he shouldn't have the ability to make organizational decisions (no player really should), but it would give the team an idea if they needed to have a contingency plan in place. The trade deadline can't get here soon enough.


The way things are going, we may not be able to wait to the trade deadline, Love's value is only going in one direction if his teammates start freezing him out.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#335 » by Stillwater » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:16 pm

Love did not request a trade as i suspected. the reason for these rumors are a dry trade market and reporters are idle...
he said this yesterday:""Nothing's changed. What I mean by that is, since I got here they've been ... since I f--king got here, there's been talk of me being traded, so it's nothing different. If they decide to go that way, I've just got to know it's part of the business, or if we decide to go that way, it's part of the business.

"Truthfully, I don't know how it's going to play out, because I see both sides."
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#336 » by jbk1234 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:18 pm

Stillwater wrote:Love did not request a trade as i suspected. the reason for these rumors are a dry trade market and reporters are idle...
he said this yesterday:""Nothing's changed. What I mean by that is, since I got here they've been ... since I f--king got here, there's been talk of me being traded, so it's nothing different. If they decide to go that way, I've just got to know it's part of the business, or if we decide to go that way, it's part of the business.

"Truthfully, I don't know how it's going to play out, because I see both sides."


Oh, I still think there's a good chance that he wants to go. I don't think Beilein and he are on the same page.
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#337 » by Stillwater » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:49 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Love did not request a trade as i suspected. the reason for these rumors are a dry trade market and reporters are idle...
he said this yesterday:""Nothing's changed. What I mean by that is, since I got here they've been ... since I f--king got here, there's been talk of me being traded, so it's nothing different. If they decide to go that way, I've just got to know it's part of the business, or if we decide to go that way, it's part of the business.

"Truthfully, I don't know how it's going to play out, because I see both sides."


Oh, I still think there's a good chance that he wants to go. I don't think Beilein and he are on the same page.

maybe , and maybe he is just bs the media to try to help CLE get him to a good situation without getting nothing offered where they choose to keep him etc... but I am still thinking most of Love's issues are with Garland not performing well enough to offer a threat that teams have to honor to free Love up some. even just inserting KPJ into the sl might help take some attn off Love even though JC would be the obvious choice if this team was about creating looks for Love. I agree him and Beilein definitely are not on the same page because Beilein is here to develop bad players not create looks for proven winners to get on the treadmill or build trade stock while keeping the youngsters in the g league or worse locked to the foam cushions ...used to be pine lol
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#338 » by jbk1234 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:37 am

ESPN is out with RPM and it's pretty brutal for the Cavs players. Cedi is the only guy I saw who was top 20 by position.

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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#339 » by cavs4872 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:12 pm

Why do we have a game tomorrow at 4:00?
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Re: Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#340 » by jbk1234 » Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:43 pm

cavs4872 wrote:Why do we have a game tomorrow at 4:00?


It's the holidays. People take off and they need to have something for them to watch.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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