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Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton

Moderator: jbk1234

Do you approve or disapprove of the Collin Sexton pick?

Approve
15
54%
Disapprove
8
29%
Undecided
5
18%
 
Total votes: 28

Revenged25
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#141 » by Revenged25 » Sat Mar 7, 2020 3:37 am

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Cool, did you check which ones Collin does at the level of the Cavs offensive rating or better?

Not that an offensive rating of 107.3 is good or anything, we are 24th in the league ... but anything Collin does with a PPP > 1.073 would be something that would improve the team as opposed to hurt the team.

I found transition and spotup, but we don't need Collin playing PG to benefit from those.


You realize that means Garland is even worse and hurts the team more... Also literally EVERY offensive stat that both of them are in, Sexton is better except for Handoff. That's all but Post Up and Pick and Roll Man


"Harm" in this case would be a factor of PPP and number of possessions. A player can literally do less damage by trying to do less. Some fans (on other boards) are upset that Garland hasn't been more assertive, but more bad offense is not a good thing.

So, Garland initiating plays that other players finish could be a good use of him on the floor. Which isn't to say that we wouldn't be even better with say Delly filling that role (if he could find his shot) but we are bound by the constraint that the kids are going to get their minutes.

Bottom line is that Collin's negative floor time is an ongoing concern. When that happens even when he's having a high-scoring solid-efficiency game, there's just something amiss..

And if Collin is the guy who makes his team better, Darius shouldn't be constantly putting up a better +/- number than him.


Unless of course he's just in better line-ups that make it easier to hide how bad he's been while Collin's been asked to carry worse players... I mean there could be that too...

-edit- Also that's Points Per Play. As in whenever Garland runs those plays he's just worse than Sexton period.
Pick and Roll: Worse
Isolation: Worse
Cutting: Worse
Spot-Up: Worse
Off-Screen: Worse
Put-Backs: Doesn't even Register for Garland
Misc: Worse
Hand-Offs: Better

Literally the only thing that Garland is better than in every aspect of scoring points he's < 1.0 PPP. Sexton actually is higher than the 1.07 you wanted in several categories.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#142 » by JonFromVA » Sat Mar 7, 2020 10:40 am

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
You realize that means Garland is even worse and hurts the team more... Also literally EVERY offensive stat that both of them are in, Sexton is better except for Handoff. That's all but Post Up and Pick and Roll Man


"Harm" in this case would be a factor of PPP and number of possessions. A player can literally do less damage by trying to do less. Some fans (on other boards) are upset that Garland hasn't been more assertive, but more bad offense is not a good thing.

So, Garland initiating plays that other players finish could be a good use of him on the floor. Which isn't to say that we wouldn't be even better with say Delly filling that role (if he could find his shot) but we are bound by the constraint that the kids are going to get their minutes.

Bottom line is that Collin's negative floor time is an ongoing concern. When that happens even when he's having a high-scoring solid-efficiency game, there's just something amiss..

And if Collin is the guy who makes his team better, Darius shouldn't be constantly putting up a better +/- number than him.


Unless of course he's just in better line-ups that make it easier to hide how bad he's been while Collin's been asked to carry worse players... I mean there could be that too...

-edit- Also that's Points Per Play. As in whenever Garland runs those plays he's just worse than Sexton period.
Pick and Roll: Worse
Isolation: Worse
Cutting: Worse
Spot-Up: Worse
Off-Screen: Worse
Put-Backs: Doesn't even Register for Garland
Misc: Worse
Hand-Offs: Better

Literally the only thing that Garland is better than in every aspect of scoring points he's < 1.0 PPP. Sexton actually is higher than the 1.07 you wanted in several categories.


Yes Darius HAS been part of better lineups without Collin. That's countintuitive if Darius was hurting the lineups he was part of so much more than Collin.

btw which "several" categories did you notice Sexton was better than 1.07?

Given how many minutes both guys play my doing less damage theory due to less usage makes sense. Its at least feasible short of a better theory. Bringing the ball up and letting it move to someone who can make a high ppp play is better for a group than creating a low ppp opportunity. Leveraging experienced players like Love and Nance seems like it might be way to do that
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#143 » by Revenged25 » Sat Mar 7, 2020 12:00 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
"Harm" in this case would be a factor of PPP and number of possessions. A player can literally do less damage by trying to do less. Some fans (on other boards) are upset that Garland hasn't been more assertive, but more bad offense is not a good thing.

So, Garland initiating plays that other players finish could be a good use of him on the floor. Which isn't to say that we wouldn't be even better with say Delly filling that role (if he could find his shot) but we are bound by the constraint that the kids are going to get their minutes.

Bottom line is that Collin's negative floor time is an ongoing concern. When that happens even when he's having a high-scoring solid-efficiency game, there's just something amiss..

And if Collin is the guy who makes his team better, Darius shouldn't be constantly putting up a better +/- number than him.


Unless of course he's just in better line-ups that make it easier to hide how bad he's been while Collin's been asked to carry worse players... I mean there could be that too...

-edit- Also that's Points Per Play. As in whenever Garland runs those plays he's just worse than Sexton period.
Pick and Roll: Worse
Isolation: Worse
Cutting: Worse
Spot-Up: Worse
Off-Screen: Worse
Put-Backs: Doesn't even Register for Garland
Misc: Worse
Hand-Offs: Better

Literally the only thing that Garland is better than in every aspect of scoring points he's < 1.0 PPP. Sexton actually is higher than the 1.07 you wanted in several categories.


Yes Darius HAS been part of better lineups without Collin. That's countintuitive if Darius was hurting the lineups he was part of so much more than Collin.

btw which "several" categories did you notice Sexton was better than 1.07?

Given how many minutes both guys play my doing less damage theory due to less usage makes sense. Its at least feasible short of a better theory. Bringing the ball up and letting it move to someone who can make a high ppp play is better for a group than creating a low ppp opportunity. Leveraging experienced players like Love and Nance seems like it might be way to do that


You realize that you are saying you are fine with the Cavs being 4v5 on offense because Garland should just not touch the ball if the Cavs are looking to score, ever.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#144 » by JonFromVA » Sat Mar 7, 2020 4:13 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Unless of course he's just in better line-ups that make it easier to hide how bad he's been while Collin's been asked to carry worse players... I mean there could be that too...

-edit- Also that's Points Per Play. As in whenever Garland runs those plays he's just worse than Sexton period.
Pick and Roll: Worse
Isolation: Worse
Cutting: Worse
Spot-Up: Worse
Off-Screen: Worse
Put-Backs: Doesn't even Register for Garland
Misc: Worse
Hand-Offs: Better

Literally the only thing that Garland is better than in every aspect of scoring points he's < 1.0 PPP. Sexton actually is higher than the 1.07 you wanted in several categories.


Yes Darius HAS been part of better lineups without Collin. That's countintuitive if Darius was hurting the lineups he was part of so much more than Collin.

btw which "several" categories did you notice Sexton was better than 1.07?

Given how many minutes both guys play my doing less damage theory due to less usage makes sense. Its at least feasible short of a better theory. Bringing the ball up and letting it move to someone who can make a high ppp play is better for a group than creating a low ppp opportunity. Leveraging experienced players like Love and Nance seems like it might be way to do that


You realize that you are saying you are fine with the Cavs being 4v5 on offense because Garland should just not touch the ball if the Cavs are looking to score, ever.


That's not at all what I'm saying. We're not trying to win, we're trying to develop young players and we're also a bad team ... so there's going to be a lot of players doing inefficient things.

What's important at this point is teaching them to share and how to make each other better.

Create better offense and the efficiency goes up across the team and you'll also see fewer potential assists wasted.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#145 » by Revenged25 » Sat Mar 7, 2020 4:50 pm

JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Yes Darius HAS been part of better lineups without Collin. That's countintuitive if Darius was hurting the lineups he was part of so much more than Collin.

btw which "several" categories did you notice Sexton was better than 1.07?

Given how many minutes both guys play my doing less damage theory due to less usage makes sense. Its at least feasible short of a better theory. Bringing the ball up and letting it move to someone who can make a high ppp play is better for a group than creating a low ppp opportunity. Leveraging experienced players like Love and Nance seems like it might be way to do that


You realize that you are saying you are fine with the Cavs being 4v5 on offense because Garland should just not touch the ball if the Cavs are looking to score, ever.


That's not at all what I'm saying. We're not trying to win, we're trying to develop young players and we're also a bad team ... so there's going to be a lot of players doing inefficient things.

What's important at this point is teaching them to share and how to make each other better.

Create better offense and the efficiency goes up across the team and you'll also see fewer potential assists wasted.


So you are fine with Garland being bad and calling it "development" when he's shown little if any, but when we are happy to seeing Sexton be a willing passer and actively looking for dish opportunities you diss it as being "bad basketball." Your hate for Sexton is unreal.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#146 » by JonFromVA » Sat Mar 7, 2020 5:49 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
You realize that you are saying you are fine with the Cavs being 4v5 on offense because Garland should just not touch the ball if the Cavs are looking to score, ever.


That's not at all what I'm saying. We're not trying to win, we're trying to develop young players and we're also a bad team ... so there's going to be a lot of players doing inefficient things.

What's important at this point is teaching them to share and how to make each other better.

Create better offense and the efficiency goes up across the team and you'll also see fewer potential assists wasted.


So you are fine with Garland being bad and calling it "development" when he's shown little if any, but when we are happy to seeing Sexton be a willing passer and actively looking for dish opportunities you diss it as being "bad basketball." Your hate for Sexton is unreal.


Nah, I've said many times I like Sexton and his potential but he hasn't "arrived" or proven he can be a starting PG and playing him off the ball let's us take advantage of his shooting.

Garland hasn't proven anything either but he at least tries things and sees things that Collin does not.

Learning to win can take a long time and I'm in favor of experimentation to see what does or does not work. So getting to see Collin without Darius is good stuff, but I don't believe we're playing any better then we were before Darius got hurt.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#147 » by jbk1234 » Sat Mar 7, 2020 6:55 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
You realize that you are saying you are fine with the Cavs being 4v5 on offense because Garland should just not touch the ball if the Cavs are looking to score, ever.


That's not at all what I'm saying. We're not trying to win, we're trying to develop young players and we're also a bad team ... so there's going to be a lot of players doing inefficient things.

What's important at this point is teaching them to share and how to make each other better.

Create better offense and the efficiency goes up across the team and you'll also see fewer potential assists wasted.


So you are fine with Garland being bad and calling it "development" when he's shown little if any, but when we are happy to seeing Sexton be a willing passer and actively looking for dish opportunities you diss it as being "bad basketball." Your hate for Sexton is unreal.


A few things: (1) If you're going to give Sexton until the second half of his second season, you should probably do the same with Garland; (2) They both play worse when they share the court together so it's probably better to move one to the bench. Right now, Sexton deserves to be out there with the starters; (3) Beware how young players look post all star break. Teams take their foot of the gas. They rest key players. This is not an observation that's unique to Sexton. Young players always look better post all star break. (4) Keeping and starting Sexton probably means Drummond goes IMO. I see those two as a far worse pairing than Love and Sexton where Love at least removes a big defender from the paint. Not a Drummond fan anyway so this doesn't bother me. (5) Even though Sexton is having good games, we're still not winning. He's still got a considerable amount of work to do in terms of ball movement, running an offense, and on the defensive end of the court before I'll be confident he's a net plus player v. a guy who's only a net plus when he's in video game mode offensively.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#148 » by God Squad » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:01 am

jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
JonFromVA wrote:
That's not at all what I'm saying. We're not trying to win, we're trying to develop young players and we're also a bad team ... so there's going to be a lot of players doing inefficient things.

What's important at this point is teaching them to share and how to make each other better.

Create better offense and the efficiency goes up across the team and you'll also see fewer potential assists wasted.


So you are fine with Garland being bad and calling it "development" when he's shown little if any, but when we are happy to seeing Sexton be a willing passer and actively looking for dish opportunities you diss it as being "bad basketball." Your hate for Sexton is unreal.


A few things: (1) If you're going to give Sexton until the second half of his second season, you should probably do the same with Garland; (2) They both play worse when they share the court together so it's probably better to move one to the bench. Right now, Sexton deserves to be out there with the starters; (3) Beware how young players look post all star break. Teams take their foot of the gas. They rest key players. This is not an observation that's unique to Sexton. Young players always look better post all star break. (4) Keeping and starting Sexton probably means Drummond goes IMO. I see those two as a far worse pairing than Love and Sexton where Love at least removes a big defender from the paint. Not a Drummond fan anyway so this doesn't bother me. (5) Even though Sexton is having good games, we're still not winning. He's still got a considerable amount of work to do in terms of ball movement, running an offense, and on the defensive end of the court before I'll be confident he's a net plus player v. a guy who's only a net plus when he's in video game mode offensively.

Curious to see how the cavs feel about Drummond/Sexton/Garland and Windler? Hows the fit? Is there reason to be excited about this core/prospects? Everyone thought it was a head-scratcher to draft Garland after drafting Sexton. I don't know what most of you see in Sexton so I'd love feedback.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#149 » by JonFromVA » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:02 pm

God Squad wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
So you are fine with Garland being bad and calling it "development" when he's shown little if any, but when we are happy to seeing Sexton be a willing passer and actively looking for dish opportunities you diss it as being "bad basketball." Your hate for Sexton is unreal.


A few things: (1) If you're going to give Sexton until the second half of his second season, you should probably do the same with Garland; (2) They both play worse when they share the court together so it's probably better to move one to the bench. Right now, Sexton deserves to be out there with the starters; (3) Beware how young players look post all star break. Teams take their foot of the gas. They rest key players. This is not an observation that's unique to Sexton. Young players always look better post all star break. (4) Keeping and starting Sexton probably means Drummond goes IMO. I see those two as a far worse pairing than Love and Sexton where Love at least removes a big defender from the paint. Not a Drummond fan anyway so this doesn't bother me. (5) Even though Sexton is having good games, we're still not winning. He's still got a considerable amount of work to do in terms of ball movement, running an offense, and on the defensive end of the court before I'll be confident he's a net plus player v. a guy who's only a net plus when he's in video game mode offensively.

Curious to see how the cavs feel about Drummond/Sexton/Garland and Windler? Hows the fit? Is there reason to be excited about this core/prospects? Everyone thought it was a head-scratcher to draft Garland after drafting Sexton. I don't know what most of you see in Sexton so I'd love feedback.


Cavs were starting to make some forward progress under Bickerstaff, and unfortunately ... a lot of things are just going to be left as question marks until the league starts up again.

The reason the Cavs drafted Garland, though, was painfully obvious ... Sexton inspite of working with Avery Johnson for a year, came in to the league with very little in the way of play making skills. Of course, they could have drafted Culver and hoped he'd be able to pickup the slack; and maybe they would have if his shooting wasn't suspect?

Heck, as it turned out, Kevin Porter Jr averaged more assists per game and per minute than Culver and shot a whole lot better too; so, they could always move him in at starting SG if they decide they're better off with a bigger wing next to Garland or Sexton.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#150 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:35 pm

Does this seem spot on to you guys?

Is Sexton still in the long term plans for this squad if they get a shot at LaMelo or Ant Edwards?

Should he be?

Cleveland Cavaliers’ NBA Draft hypotheticals and Collin Sexton’s position

Hey, Chris: Do the Cavs view Collin Sexton as a undersized shooting guard or a point guard?

The Cavs answered this question a little more than a year ago when they drafted Garland with the fifth pick. The organization took Garland not only because he was the top player on their board at that point but also because they don’t view Sexton as a full-time lead guard. That’s not where he’s best. Sexton is a scoring guard. He’s quickly becoming an elite scorer, improving his marks in a number of different areas.

Sexton ranked 11th in the NBA in drives and ticked up in finishing at the rim, floater range, mid-range and hovered around 40% from beyond the arc despite going through a woeful shooting December.


Using the Portland model (Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum) or Toronto’s with Kyle Lowry and Fred VanVleet, there will be moments throughout games where Sexton runs the offense. If he continues to develop the requisite point guard skills, especially keeping his teammates involved, Sexton will get more chances to run the team. But Garland (or LaMelo Ball?) will be the point guard of the future.

So, let’s just call Sexton a guard -- a good one who continued his rise in Year 2 and will look to build on that in 2020-21.
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Re: Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton 

Post#151 » by Stillwater » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:02 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:Does this seem spot on to you guys?

Is Sexton still in the long term plans for this squad if they get a shot at LaMelo or Ant Edwards?

Should he be?

Cleveland Cavaliers’ NBA Draft hypotheticals and Collin Sexton’s position

Hey, Chris: Do the Cavs view Collin Sexton as a undersized shooting guard or a point guard?

The Cavs answered this question a little more than a year ago when they drafted Garland with the fifth pick. The organization took Garland not only because he was the top player on their board at that point but also because they don’t view Sexton as a full-time lead guard. That’s not where he’s best. Sexton is a scoring guard. He’s quickly becoming an elite scorer, improving his marks in a number of different areas.

Sexton ranked 11th in the NBA in drives and ticked up in finishing at the rim, floater range, mid-range and hovered around 40% from beyond the arc despite going through a woeful shooting December.


Using the Portland model (Damian Lillard and CJ McCollum) or Toronto’s with Kyle Lowry and Fred VanVleet, there will be moments throughout games where Sexton runs the offense. If he continues to develop the requisite point guard skills, especially keeping his teammates involved, Sexton will get more chances to run the team. But Garland (or LaMelo Ball?) will be the point guard of the future.

So, let’s just call Sexton a guard -- a good one who continued his rise in Year 2 and will look to build on that in 2020-21.
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So far he is a score first combo guard that can play on ball best or off ball as needed but is best with the ball in his hands as a scorer.

Is he ever going to be a high dime guard? I dont see it being anyones plan for him but who knows why anyone would count him out on it given the flashes he showed in year 2. Sexton was caught between the struggle of playing Beileins sets to accomodate a rookie in Garland whos pt was being pushed by the gm because he was taken at 5 but who failed in many ways on both sides of the ball.

The fact they took Garland seems to indicate the feeling was he was the BPA more than anything and even though after Sextons first season they may have factored it in that Garland may be a better distributor...the opinion has to be different now.
If anything CLE would love for Garland to become anything close to what Sexton has become, but for now neither are true floor generals in the traditional sense and Garland has a longer ways to go physically to deserve any starting job over Sexton at either guard spot.
I dont think for a second they would hesitate to draft another BPA even if it is a guard though and it wont mean much of anything.
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